Older Supports Need A Form Of Skill Expression These Newer Supports Have

TheySeeMeWardin··17 votes·1,510 views

^

43 Comments

Ahristocats14 votes

Janna has already skill expression You have to decide between shielding your ally that is dying or your adc to give AD(if it's broken the ad disappears) You have to use your Q and R to stop enemy dashes instead of using it mindlessly You have to not forget about your passive and run in front of your team to give bonus movement speed if you're chasing a target

AND

you can knock through a wall a target with ult if you use it while standing perpendicularly with the enemy and the wall

i may be biased since i fell in love with the champion, but multiple time people give me glory as i do everything listed above. I feel like you can make a huge difference between bad janna players and good janna players

-gH

Nymzo4 votes

Sona on the other hand... :(

Spareatick7 votes

[{quoted}](name=gh God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-06T21:18:55.656+0000)

Janna has already skill expression You have to decide between shielding your ally that is dying or your adc to give AD(if it's broken the ad disappears) You have to use your Q and R to stop enemy dashes instead of using it mindlessly You have to not forget about your passive and run in front of your team to give bonus movement speed if you're chasing a target

AND

you can knock through a wall a target with ult if you use it while standing perpendicularly with the enemy and the wall

i may be biased since i fell in love with champion, but multiple time people give me glory as i do everything listed above. I feel like you can make a huge difference between bad janna players and good janna players

-gH

Shhhhhhh. People around these parts don't like hearing that passive/defensive playstyles can have skill expression. You'll be burned alive with downvotes if they catch you! I suggest finding a way to get smuggled to memes and games.

Ahristocats1 votes

i see, then i will keep playing the champ myself and let people think what they want

Spareatick1 votes

[{quoted}](name=gh God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2017-04-07T05:50:31.256+0000)

i see, then i will keep playing the champ myself and let people think what they want

That works too ;P

Floupi2 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Squishy Support,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-04-07T10:52:18.954+0000)

I started playing her in diamond 5 and am climbing super fast and i'm almost getting master now with 60+% wins

i don't really care but w/e

[{quoted}](name=Squishy Support,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-04-07T10:52:18.954+0000)

She is ridiculously easy to play. You don't have to do well, you just have not to do bad and you will most likely win (she is usually the champion people pick when they are autofilled...)

because you said so

[{quoted}](name=Squishy Support,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-04-07T10:52:18.954+0000)

Even Sona who is pretty noobstompy and is a nightmare for the enemy in low elo, is actually harder to play in high elo because she is very bad early if you know how to play against

Sona is actually impossible to play above master in most of the situations because botlane mains know how to destroy Sona, and Sona has nothing to do against this with 325 base ms+long cooldown and high mana cost on W (that doesn't even do anything)

if you want to trade with her they will extend trades and kill you

That does not mean Sona is hard to play, that simply means Sona depends on if the enemy knows how to play against her or not, her mechanics are still inexistent and nothing makes a difference between a good Sona and a bad Sona unless we talk about power chord that will be staccato in 90% of the cases due to how her cd works

[{quoted}](name=Squishy Support,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-04-07T10:52:18.954+0000)

Imo some supports with decent skill expression are Alistar Bard Braum Blitzcrank TahmKench Thresh Taric Zilean Nami Ivern

But certainly not Janna Sona Soraka Zyra Morgana etc

Because you said so again

i told you above what makes the difference between a good and a bad janna

and now you just said that it isn't true, just because you didn't like it

Floupi1 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats3 votes

hm.... but i hate them :p

Anags1 votes

Sona is impossible let to play in mastee tier while having 52% winrate or higher in that tier over the last couple months.

She isn't near as bad as people say. And most people that play her don't make use of power chords correctly anyway.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

Sona is impossible let to play in mastee tier while having 52% winrate or higher in that tier over the last couple months.

52%, 54%, 53%, so many different sit using different numbers at this point i don't trust anyone anymore only riot has the "secret numbers" like meddler called them that they won't reveal (for reasons?)

Fact that you can't have an accurate win rate on Sona in master+ because she is played 50 or 60 times per months at best which is nothing compared to other supports

if everyone played her at least 900 times her win rate would be nearly 30%

{quoted}

She isn't near as bad as people say.

i told you what would happen against skilled players, not going to repeat it

chipndip11 votes

The problem is that whenever it comes to support, everyone shuts their ears and screams "IT'S FINE" even when it isn't. It'll be near impossible to make the role, or its champions, any better in the long run.

Like, oh dear, one-tricks in high elo that play less than 100 games on Sona make her overall win rate above 50%. Totally great champ design!

50000000000000001 votes

Having low skill floor doesn't really mean not having high skill ceiling.

BlackFlux3 votes

Can we get a definition on 'skill expression'? like things you can do if your skilled like a thresh hook and lantern? playing bard and USING his ult? have only used that thing once. as it mainly just buys you like 2 seconds for a tower dive.

chipndip15 votes

Positive Examples:

Nami Landing slow, floaty skill shots for your more influential tools. Even your heal has a bounce mechanic to learn.

Bard Landing Q on two targets to stun/Ult can be a huge boost or bane to your team.

Taric His strongest tools are all delayed, taking timing and positioning to land them right.

Negative Examples:

Sona Basically the "Master Yi" of supports. Prays that you allow her to just do what she does so she can scale into late game while spamming buttons.

Lulu Her whole kit is just reactive countering to anything anyone else wants to do to her with point-n-click effects, save Q, which is essentially just a slow now.

Janna Stand back and press E when anyone looks at your adc funny. Press R when someone hard engages. Congratz, you're now at least Gold material on Janna.

Soraka Riot's done so much, and her primary play pattern is still "stand in the fog and spam W".

JavelinJoe2 votes

So like landing a Blitzcrank Q on red side lol?

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Eh, depends on skill range.

High elo: landing grabs on non-initiators = skill expression

Low elo: People dive face-first into every skill shot within 12 miles of them. No skill required.

TheySeeMeWardin1 votes

THIS!! So much this. The problem is that their kits are so binary and stale, still very effective but less room for counter play than the top supports you mentioned.

Fairyfleur1 votes

Sona, Lulu, Janna, and Soraka all have kinds of skill expression, but it just isn't noticed.

chipndip11 votes

Sona has almost ZERO skill expression. I'm the wrong guy to be trying to convince, either.

Lulu is all point and click, save Q. Sona's the same, save R. Janna's primary laning pattern is just pressing E when anyone does anything, and Soraka's is the same, except it's W when someone gets hit. They don't really make for an experience where someone can show that they're a better player of these champs than someone else may be save for fringe cases.

Fairyfleur1 votes

An ability being point and click does not mean that there is no way to express your skill with it. Heck, Nami's W is point and click, yet you say that she can express her skill with it. You can show your skill on how, or when, you use your abilities. For example, the timing on Sona's diminuendo can be game-changing. Soraka can ult an ally far away and turn a fight due to the player's observance. Lulu's whimsy can be used right as a squishy, like Zed or Riven goes in, which can save an ally and allow your team to kill them. Janna can use her ult right as a Zac is jumping in, to save her team from a possible 3-4 man knockup.

chipndip11 votes

See, my issue with the LoL community is that you have to basically explain EVERYTHING to EVERYONE like they just started the game. It's stupid.

With that said, Nami's heal is point-n-click...with a bouncing mechanic. It's horribly mana inefficient unless you get a bounce or two off each cast. The skill involved comes from bouncing it in the way you want it to, especially given the notion that people can move out of range so it doesn't bounce to them or back to you. It's not some big combo or fancy footwork, but it's something appreciable in terms of execution. Sona's skills have no variation to how they're used. Press button? Auto-aimed effect. Auto with passive up? Effect. Ult. Done. You hardly have tools to proactively create a situation, nor do you have the tools to find ways out of a situation, save your ult.

You can't miss Diminuendo. Knowing its timing isn't a skill thing. It's a knowledge thing, and even with that, the timing for Diminuendo is basically "any time at all" during an extended scrap. Using Soraka's ult is once again a knowledge thing, not a "skill" thing. There's no margin of error in Soraka's R. Only knowledge of when to use R. Same for Lulu's W. No margin of error, but you can actively choose the wrong person or the wrong time to use it. Janna's ult is the primary example of any skill expression in ANY of these champs, but that doesn't negate her brain dead laning patterns.

Note how that Riot doesn't have to come out and gut Nami if she gets strong. They DO have to gut the other four in question. Why? Because their margin of error is low. If they're strong, they're blatantly strong. I can tell you right now that Lulu isn't going anywhere without at least 2 patches of nerfs on top of buffs to other supports. Meanwhile Nami just comes and goes. She's better designed. Period.

Fairyfleur1 votes

You're completely right in that last paragraph, but what I'm trying to get across is that the supports you mentioned have a way of expressing skill, even if you might achieve the same result without heightened skill on the mentioned champion.

chipndip11 votes

They do, but it's not enough, especially for Sona and Lulu.

StoryDuck3 votes

I think you may be mistaking "Skill Expression" with "Looking Flashy" supports are by no means a group champions lacking a need for skills. They may not look the best as they are better at making others look better but they still have huge impact and require great skills to climb the ranks of LOL.

Face it, Alistar is more complex and requires more skill then DrMundo

Braum requires more positional know-how then KogMaw

Karma requires more decision making skills then MasterYi

Nami skill shot is harder to hit with then Cassiopeia 's

Taric is a far more complex tank then Malphite

Thresh

All roles have simplistic champions its just that the support role doesn't have many "Flashy/Super Complex hyper-mobile" champions. Rakan looks awesome though! Perhaps we are finally getting our flashing hyper-mobility support.

Arsenic Sulfur1 votes

Well I'd argue that Thresh is pretty flashy what with the Madlife hooks and all.

I'd say Mordekaiser is a better comparison than Master Yi as his difficulty comes from timing more than anything.

TheJakeinator2 votes

Gonna have to elaborate on that one bud

Big Lincoln1 votes

"supports"

"skill expression"

pick one

TheySeeMeWardin14 votes

Don't need to, just pick Rakan, Bard, Thresh... there's quite a few.

TricolorStar3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-06T21:07:20.732+0000)

"supports"

"skill expression"

pick one

I see you in every support thread and you say the same thing (that support is a no-skill role) Maybe chill a bit?

Big Lincoln1 votes

i am a messenger of truth simply doing my duties

StoryDuck6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EGvQ3KU,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-07T01:27:36.808+0000)

i am a messenger of trolls simply doing my duties

You had a typo. I fixed it for you. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

That can't be right. That would imply he is a messenger for Trundle .

And Trundle plays support. ;p

StoryDuck3 votes

Trundle is the Troll King. He is far above the normal troll peasants. He can only lead with with example. He can't help it if no one else can dance as good as he.

Lexyy1 votes

You mean they should require more skill? Well no, we need easier champs for new players.

ThePerson761 votes

Support is not just for new players. Many of support champions are already incredibly binary. We need more gems like Taric Thresh Annie all of which require more timing, skill, and decision making than most.

Dryditch1 votes

Sorry... Annie?

Nope.

ThePerson761 votes

Do you mean not a support or not difficult?

Dryditch1 votes

I mean Annie's level of decision making is: "Should I throw my stun now when there's one priority target and then 100-10 them in half a second, or should I wait until there's a group? Oh who cares, I'll have my stun up again before the next fight because I never have to manage any resources to get it back!"

I just have a hard time understanding why this champion gets to perpetually hold her stun with no penalties.

NekoniClaws1 votes

I agree and disagree. We do need simple supports that don't detract the player's attention from playing the role correctly. This applies both to new players, autofilled players, and support mains, who shouldn't have to main Janna or Lulu just to have someone to take against an assassin heavy comp. (Yes, I'm talking primarily about low-elo, like it exists and is statistically valid)

But my soul yearns for the complicated, the big flashy plays, and the earned kills. I am addicted to Thresh right now- and even M7 I still have the thrill of learning and performing new tricks almost every game. I think his playrate well represents this enjoyable aspect of his kit, and I enthusiatically await more supports of this kind!

Lost R1 votes

Do you mean like how Braum goes "Stand behind Braum!" when you jump to an ally, or are we thinking of two different things?

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Lulu I just wish that actively using your brain to pick and choose the right targets to buff/debuff instead of auto-binding one spell for only one purpose actually matters.

Because it's not right now. You can be a complete retard and never knowing what the hell you're doing and get rewarded anyways, just because you locked in Lulu.

More from Gameplay

More by TheySeeMeWardin