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"What is bottlenecking?" for 1000, Alex.

dunder kill··143 votes·6,057 views

Since people dont seem to grasp this concept and instead just QQ about autofill, let me explain to you how this works and why "let me turn off autofill with longer queue times" and "turn off autofill" wont work.

So everyone turns off autofill and we have 5 minute longer queue times right? WRONG. You don't grasp how this works. It won't be just 5 minutes. If nobody or a very limited amount of people queue up as support, you get what is known as a bottleneck.

If you dont know what that means, it refers to a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or small number of components or resources. The limited number of supports will create a restriction in the system, slowing the entire thing down. The number of other roles is literally meaningless as the number of supports is the limiting factor. On busy nights, like weekends, the length of queue times would grow and grow and grow as the support bottleneck continues to back the system further and further up.

So next time you offer one of these suggestions, just know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

tl;dr - Nobody wants 30+ minute queues in silver because you dont want to play support 1 out of 10 games. Get over it.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

216 Comments

Reaper Soraka77 votes

So what your saying is, if I only have one drone farming vespene gas, it will take a lot longer to go mass mutas than if I have 12? Even if those other 11 only wanted to build a spine crawler?

DeadlinWalking8 votes

LOL.

Jet Sett5 votes

I was never good at Starcraft, but I will forever and always be "that" 6 pool Zerg guy. Or just Zerg guy, because fuck is there a learning curve between the different groups, I couldn't even play properly my first time as Terran.

RisenDarkKnight4 votes

Haha I'm the opposite, I main terran and can somewhat play protoss, but I'm worse than an easy AI at Zerg. Managing creep spread, injects with queens, overlord positioning, plus the normal macro and micro plays is too much for me.

RavenMagus2 votes

Terran always seemed soooo easy compared to what I was doing.

Then I tried them and couldn't do anything worth a damn with them.

Except mass ghosts. I loved those guys.

(I was a Protoss player myself, pretty good at Zerg too)

Risk of Fate29 votes

TeamBuilderProblems

Ah, I remember the 35-40 minute Queues when I wanted to mid, 20-ish when ADC and literal 5 seconds when I went support.

TotalJerk6 votes

As a support main I loved Team Builder. Infinite penalty-free dodges and 5 second queues.

Smitty Manjensen22 votes

Then they should fix the support role so more people play it, and not force others into it. Don't force players into a shit role (it's shit, just accept it).

Sepulchur8 votes

{quoted}

Then they should fix the support role so more people play it, and not force others into it. Don't force players into a shit role (it's shit, just accept it).

Ok, I'm curious. What makes the support role shit?

Zone of Endless10 votes

{quoted}

Ok, I'm curious. What makes the support role shit?

Low recognition in game. Lack of damage. Falls behind on xp/gold(which isn't that big of a deal as they make it out to be). Hard to solo carry because lack of damage. Dependent on teammates because lack of damage.

Overall not flashy and not enough damage to make it appealing to the mass.

HazyCloud711 votes

Lack of damage is not true at all.

If you want damage play zyra, brand, vel koz or lux. If you want to provide healing/shielding/peel play a mage support, if you want playmaking/peel play leona, bard, thresh, alistar or blitz.

Can't have everything. For anyone that wants to provide lots of damage in teamfights from the support role, the options are there. We have literally seen Zyra support out damage some of her laners in competitive play. The only real problem with the support role is the exp discrepancy, its the least popular role like it is in every single game because playing support inherently involves enabling others to succeed rather than yourself.

rtbf2256182419 votes

Those aren't supports. They're mid laners that don't provide the team with any utility/shields/heals or any auras and generally you're saying let's delete the real Supports that were designed for the Support role and let's shoehorn in Mid laners in because we just can't deal with the problems that we're facing on this role.

No, Supporting is just shit in general unless you win a lot with it and it makes up for it.

Hyrum Graff10 votes

{quoted}

Those aren't supports. They're mid laners that don't provide the team with any utility/shields/heals or any auras and generally you're saying let's delete the real Supports that were designed for the Support role and let's shoehorn in Mid laners in because we just can't deal with the problems that we're facing on this role.

No, Supporting is just shit in general unless you win a lot with it and it makes up for it.

There is a difference between a mid lamer and a mage. Mid lane is a role; mage is a class. Mages can play in the support role (like brand, zyra, etc). Unfortunately, enchanters and wardens (the classes of Janna and Braum respectively) often have trouble playing roles other than support.

grittedblade9 votes

everybody mentions all these damage or utility supports but nobody mentions karma, she pokes, she shields, she ccs she has a bit of everything a support could want and she can go mid and make people regret their choices in life.

Zone of Endless2 votes

{quoted}

Lack of damage is not true at all.

If you want damage play zyra, brand, vel koz or lux. If you want to provide healing/shielding/peel play a mage support, if you want playmaking/peel play leona, bard, thresh, alistar or blitz.

Can't have everything. For anyone that wants to provide lots of damage in teamfights from the support role, the options are there. We have literally seen Zyra support out damage some of her laners in competitive play. The only real problem with the support role is the exp discrepancy, its the least popular role like it is in every single game because playing support inherently involves enabling others to succeed rather than yourself.

Yep. My post I stretch a little bit to make fun of the people that constantly whine about support role being unfun.

There are damage support option like you mention and also the utilities support but people want something that does everything. Kinda like they want Janna to be able to do massive damage on top of her utility.

Darkeus5 votes

I think people are just too selfish to want to play a less glamorous role. I am a team player. I like support BECAUSE I can help support the rest of the team. I don't need glory, I need wins. This is a team game and I am there to Support my team.

But everybody wants to be the star. And it does not work that way. The role isn't shit. It is just people that perceive it that way because it is not some high profile glory role. Just like Tanks and healers in MMO's. Most important roles but nobody wants to be it. Lol

Verdade2 votes

Supports in other mobas are much more popular... Maybe because they have same power budget as carries there

VoidStaresBack9 votes

Supports do have the same power budget, but for most of the classical supports (enchanters, mostly) that's funneled heavily into, surprise surprise, their supportive kit elements. The elements of their kit that enable their allies to do their job better. Not into damage or flashy outplays.

Verdade1 votes

If supports had same power budgets as others, nobody would pick Annie over Janna or Leona. When utility provided by 1.5s instand stun outclasses whole kit of legit support, something is wrong.

Mage supports (Vk, Brand, Zyra) wouldn't be nearly as good and popular if they had the same power budget as normal supports.

Finally, why would i want to play Soraka and heal my ADC for 500 hp every 5 seconds if that ADC can lifesteal 500 hp every second WHILE ALSO DEALING DAMAGE? Why would i want to play Janna if her shield gets penetrated by single AA or poke ability?

VoidStaresBack10 votes

People don't play Annie support because of the stun, people play Annie support because of the damage output, the stun is just used to justify the pick because it means they do provide the bare minimum of CC. People play mage supports for the exact same reason support will never be a popular role: because it allows them to fill their fantasy of being a carry. Additionally, all support picks have team comps where they work to their best effect, and mage supports are no different, so there will always be situations where a mage support is a better idea than one of the more classical ones.

You know who the top ten winrate supports are? Five enchanters, two vanguards, one disruptor, one burst mage, and Blitzcrank. If enchanter supports are as weak as you say, why do five of them (note there are only nine in total) appear in the top 33% of support winrates at positions 2, 4, 6, 8, and 9? Two of them appear before any of the mage supports do, the first of those is Brand at position 5.

If you're playing Soraka and Janna like that you're doing them horrendously wrong, Soraka's heal is on a 1.1 second cooldown late game and can target anyone on your team, allowing you to keep any of your carries alive, and Janna's power comes from her ability to disengage for her carries and her immensely powerful ultimate. Using extreme hyperbole and taking only one ability from a champion's kit doesn't mean that champion is actually weak.

You see, your claim about power budgets isn't supported by any actual data, and in fact is undermined by the data that does exist and some basic knowledge of player psychology.

HazyCloud72 votes

You summed it up perfectly.

Mokkun49 votes

{quoted}

Then they should fix the support role so more people play it, and not force others into it. Don't force players into a shit role (it's shit, just accept it).

They can't fix the fact that the majority of people want to be carries. At least not without removing the entire role.

Lord Boltrix25 votes

It's a close answer, but not the correct one.

People want to be playmakers.

Champions like Thresh and Blitzcrank and Leona and Nautilus get a lot more attention than other supports when they make plays because you easily see their impact, the way they affect the entire flow of a team's momentum. Champions like Bard and Braum and Alistair don't have to do damage to get attention, they do these flashy plays that gets the attention on them.

What people want to be are playmakers, the kind of people that gets the casters to go crazy as the audience waits in anticipation to see just how far someone can take the game and stand out above both their teammates and their opponents.

The problem is that a lot of supports can't really be seen to have an impact outside of their ultimates, so the potential of their ability to draw the crowd is limited. All of the champions I mentioned, they are supports who can make flashy plays... without their ultimate.

There are a lot of passive supports who don't do anything too exciting visually, Soraka's heals aren't extraordinary outside of maybe a clutch heal, Janna doesn't have much visibly beyond her tornado, Sona isn't really being notable during a match unless her Q's are chunking the hp bars of squishies.

The path to increasing the number of supports isn't as difficult as people believe it is, it's simply making every support having a VISIBLE impact in terms of gameplay, which means people will FEEL that they can not only make a difference, but also that one day, as a support they can have the crowds and the casters chanting and shouting their names.

I believe the introduction of more active-use items for supports like Redemption is the first right step.

Talisid6 votes

Maybe my viewpoint is a bit one-sided as a former support main but personally I enjoy playing shit like Sona and Soraka.

What I don't enjoy is being shackled to the ADC. Its the same thing when I tried to learn the ADC role being dependent on my support. The lack of communication makes duo-lanes so difficult to play.

The 5 man botlane ganks didn't help either.

Erockandroll19 votes

{quoted}

Then they should fix the support role so more people play it, and not force others into it. Don't force players into a shit role (it's shit, just accept it).

That's the long term solution. Not something that Riot can just do at the drop of a hat.

I mean, how do you fix the support role? What's wrong with it? That's something Riot is going to need to research. Unless you insist that Riot should just take a more aggressive approach. (Like say Never nerfing a support, or their itemization. Not Sona, not Raka, not Redempion, etc.) Yet I'm pretty sure the support role would become Oppressive, if Riot just gave the role a lot of power.

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

They could try to offer more support playstyles for those who like to be aggressive.

Atanchan13 votes

uhhhhhh

Alistar Annie Bard Blitzcrank Leona Lux Morgana Thresh Zyra

Verdade1 votes

Out of these only Bard, Thresh and Zyra are somehow fun. All others are "one trick ponies" as in they have one combo and if they can pull it out they win, otherwise they lose.

HazyCloud78 votes

Fun is subjective. Lots of people enjoy those champions.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

When I mean aggressive, I meant people who want to carry as Rengar, Jarvan, etc.

Atanchan2 votes

I mean, you get snowballing as support Annie, Lux, Zyra, and maybe Morg and you might as well be a secondary midlaner that dipped into support items early game.

President Swa1n2 votes

Don't forget Brand.

Atanchan2 votes

He's good for that, too, I just don't see him as reliable enough to be someone to recommend to someone as a standard. More someone to branch off to, y'know.

Might be underestimating how much his update did for that, though, since I don't really have much experience with support him since then.

Need Gold 4 Tent4 votes

You make supports oppressive, they become carries. Like how AP carries are already going bot lane as "support", only that now even the true supports like soraka/janna become "supports".

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

Then they should fix the support role so more people play it, and not force others into it. Don't force players into a shit role (it's shit, just accept it).

assuming they accomplish that, they still wouldn't get all positions to be equally balanced in popularity, the bottleneck would just spread to the new least-popular role, whether that's jungler due to a tank-support-jungler meta, top due to lack of relevance, or bot due to a passive cs-fest meta.

Praetor Notorias10 votes

It's the playerbase that makes the role undesirable, not the role itself. I happen to enjoy playing support but supporting a retarded ADC isn't very fun because it's 15 minutes before we lose tower and I can go do something productive. But supporting an ADC that knows how to trade is fun because it's high speed 4-man chess with the occasional you sunk my battleship bombardment from Jungle. This whole lvl 3 gank has actually made it more interesting because now I find myself warding the river bushes early to protect against it.

But it's always been a 4-man gank target so the playerbase needs to update their skills to watch the map and counter gank or use the pressure to take an objective. That's not the time to press B. If I had to say what was least attractive about the role, it's that. At some point you will be fighting the entire enemy team with just a portion of your team.

Also the playerbase needs to get out of the meta a little and experiment. There is no "support" champ, there is only a support role. Healers, utility mages, tanks, marksmen, juggernauts, and assassins can all support. Just as the bot role can be filled by just about anything. The things people need to be aware of are what do you gain from X decision and what consequences will it have. Can the team in another lane cover this when it becomes a problem?

And the ping spam needs to stop because if you are navigating by the map and you remove 50% of the visible area of interest, it's a disadvantage.

ImmortalBloodCY16 votes

I main support.

Auto-Fill sometimes makes me top/mid as its my secondary.

I am like WUT?

Sraeg201311 votes

For some reason my queues were 5 minutes before autofill. Now they are 1 minute long and but people dodge 5 times so the time it takes me to start a game is 15 minutes instead.

BladeSteel10 votes

Except they didn't have autofill a month ago. And queues were fine. However now I get an extra 10-15 min queues because of all the people dodging. So I would rather have non autofill back.

dunder kill2 votes

They also didnt have full-time ranked queues and the all the normal queues before autofill either.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

BladeSteel2 votes

Except the only thing they added was solo queue ranked. Thus normals weren't effected at all.[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Neko Caitlyn9 votes

If it were that extreme people would Q as support for instant Qs. So no your analogy doesnt work.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

People did queue as support for instant queues then steal other roles before auto-fill. That was actually a thing.

Irelia Bot9 votes

Part of the issue is that they create no incentive to have support as your secondary position.

The system actually is more along the lines of punishment for putting support as your secondary in that you get support more then half your games when it is your secondary.

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

In an odd twist of fate:

I'm a support main. I always queue support secondary because it gave me the role about 75% of the time (as opposed to 100%). I've gotten support noticeably less since Auto-fill became a thing. Hell, I actually managed to lose auto-fill protection! (o_O)

DemoGuide5 votes

I think acceptable time for auto fill is somewhere from 5 to 10 minutes. Autofill after 2 minutes is just stupid.

LXII5 votes

We had an entire season of no autofill and we never had 30 minute queues. Seems like you just wanted to sound smart here so you completely overlooked that fact.

dADDY bLUE eYEZ4 votes

So what about the entirety of last season. It worked then except in high elo. I never got a queue over maybe 7-8 min.

Aptest3 votes

On busy nights, like weekends, the length of queue times would grow and grow and grow as the support bottleneck continues to back the system further and further up.

umm.... naa... you have a flaw in your argument:

Let's suppose players Mid_dle, Mid_orFeed and Sup_reme are queuing for a game. They are all in same Elo.

The matchmaker has to fill the roles, so it puts Sup_reme in his slot and then either Mid_dle or Mid_orFeed also get a slot.

The other mid player can't play until Sup_reme is queuing up again. I.E. whatever the game time is (30 min) + change.

Mid_dle waited 0 seconds for a game, Mid_orFeed waited 35 minutes, and on average each of them waited 17.5 minutes.

Let's say it's friday night, we add 3 more players. Since the role distribution is the same, these players will be Mid_range, Mid_rift and Sup_erTanker.

Now we do matchmaking. Sup_reme and Sup_ertanker get an immediate game, along with Mid_range and Mid_rift. Mid_dle and Mid_orFeed wait for the next game.

In this case we have 2 mid players waiting 0 minutes, and 2 mid players waiting 35 minutes. On average, the wait time is THE SAME.

dunder kill16 votes

Becuase thats not how it works. If Mid_dle, Mid_orFeed and Sup_reme all queue at the same time (assuming theyre not grouped, Sup_reme will not be matched with either of them. Sup_reme will be matched with the people who have been waiting for 30 minutes. Mid_dle and Mid_orFeed now have to wait their turn in line.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

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