Full Tank Garen OUTDAMAGES Full Damage Carries

Squidblimp··6 votes·4,304 views

I have yet to see a SINGLE game where Garen did not deal the most damage on his team, despite building FULL TANK.

Sure, he's a damage tank, I get it. However, he should NOT be doing more damage than full damage carry roles, like ADCs, AP mages or assassins. These last 3 roles die VERY easily if caught out, but as a tradeoff, they get to do lots and lots of damage if played right.

Garen gets to do lots and lots of damage, more than his carry teammates, but is not squishy.

In fact, I played Vel'Koz the other day. 3 of my items were Void Staff, Liandry's and Rylai's. I completed 5 spell rotations, and I still could not kill the Garen that was running at my face. I went OOM. I could barely kite him with Rylai's, my Q slow, and my knockup, and when I went OOM, he finished diving on my face and killed me.

Sure, you can kite him and peel him, but he is SO TANKY that eventually you run out of mana and CC spells to even kite him with, and he builds Dead Man's Plate and Boots of Swiftness with Alacrity, plus he has a movespeed boost, so eventually, he will catch you and kill you, and not even hiding under your tower will save you late game.

So please lower this guy's damage, or nerf Dead Man's Plate, or something.

(And yes, Skarner suffers from a lot of the same issues, but he's getting a hotfix nerf in a few days. However, Garen on the other hand is getting a SLIGHT movespeed nerf and a damage BUFF on the PBE.)

26 Comments

redniwediS2 votes

Garen will lose his role as a high damage bruiser when Irelia does. Might as well complain about her first.

Squidblimp2 votes

Irelia is annoying too, but she does LESS damage than Garen right now, and also doesn't build full tank, she builds bruiser, therefore being more squishy than Garen.

redniwediS1 votes

How are you judging his damage?

If you're looking at end game stats are you taking deaths/time alive into account?

If you're going by feel are you taking resistances and other defenses into account?

In any other case are you taking level difference into account?

Full tank Garen should be doing little to no damage, regardless of what his villain passive is doing. Bruiser Garen, however, fits the bill of what you're saying.

ReshiKillim2 votes

A whole lot of his damage points in the end game score comes from when he walks into the middle of a teamfight and spins to win. That's a crap ton right there. I'd argue that most of his damage that isn't against the villain, comes from just spinning into people's faces.

Garen doesn't have the ability to leap on your face instantly and stun if you've got more % hp than her.

TheVishual2 votes

{quoted}

I have yet to see a SINGLE game where Garen did not deal the most damage on his team, despite building FULL TANK.

Sure, he's a damage tank, I get it. However, he should NOT be doing more damage than full damage carry roles, like ADCs, AP mages or assassins. These last 3 roles die VERY easily if caught out, but as a tradeoff, they get to do lots and lots of damage if played right.

Garen gets to do lots and lots of damage, more than his carry teammates, but is not squishy.

In fact, I played Vel'Koz the other day. 3 of my items were Void Staff, Liandry's and Rylai's. I completed 5 spell rotations, and I still could not kill the Garen that was running at my face. I went OOM. I could barely kite him with Rylai's, my Q slow, and my knockup, and when I went OOM, he finished diving on my face and killed me.

Sure, you can kite him and peel him, but he is SO TANKY that eventually you run out of mana and CC spells to even kite him with, and he builds Dead Man's Plate and Boots of Swiftness with Alacrity, plus he has a movespeed boost, so eventually, he will catch you and kill you, and not even hiding under your tower will save you late game.

So please lower this guy's damage, or nerf Dead Man's Plate, or something.

(And yes, Skarner suffers from a lot of the same issues, but he's getting a hotfix nerf in a few days. However, Garen on the other hand is getting a SLIGHT movespeed nerf and a damage BUFF on the PBE.)

Where is the data you're quoting + all these games... there is this thing you need called evidence for people to take you seriously

Squidblimp1 votes

Just look at Garen's damage to champions in your games. You'll see. I don't have pictures, but I'm sure there are stats somewhere. In that particular game though, I did over 80,000 damage as Vel'Koz, and the enemy Garen did over 75,000 while building full tank. I'm not lying, or kidding. The only damage item he had was Titanic Hydra, and that's more of a tank item than a damage item.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Titanic Hydra is a HUGE damage boost, but for autoattacks.

If he did not have Cleaver I do not see where his damage is coming from other than his ridiculous ult.

TheVishual1 votes

{quoted}

Just look at Garen's damage to champions in your games. You'll see. I don't have pictures, but I'm sure there are stats somewhere. In that particular game though, I did over 80,000 damage as Vel'Koz, and the enemy Garen did over 75,000 while building full tank. I'm not lying, or kidding. The only damage item he had was Titanic Hydra, and that's more of a tank item than a damage item.

This is the best rebuttal i've ever heard in my life thank you

Blade of Justic2 votes

The solution is simple.

If you're the Villian, stay the F@#$ away from Garen.

Squidblimp2 votes

I wasn't the villain at that time, and also, running away from him is pretty hard with 2 movespeed items and his movespeed boost.

Ben Sharpio2 votes

All of these braindead garen mains won't admit that this idiot champion is dealing too much damage. Anyone that isn't stupid knows that if you build FULL tank like 99.9% of Garen players, you should not even be able to deal HALF the damage he is doing right now. He is literally unkillable late-game as he just sprints through everything, does his ballerina spin for 20 minutes, silencing your bitch ass every 3 seconds and instakilling adc's everywhere as well as supports and there is nothing i can do (as a tank myself) but watch. This new villain system has made him so damn annoying to play against and the villain system doesnt even make sense. If my support has 0 kills why does the support become the villain randomly? It makes no sense at all. Plus his true damage is outrageous. See, I HATE vayne along with vayne enthusiasts but i'd rather go up against a vayne than a Garen right now. I keep asking myself "How is it possible to make a braindead champion like Garen overpowered?" and then i realize, Riot somehow made it possible with his outrageously spammable kit. Atleast give this bitch some mana or something because when have you ever seen a Garen use a basic attack? You don't, his spammable abilities just keep coming back and his player base have no sense of resourcefulness and now they're taking advantage of his bullshit. He is a beginner champion and his villain passive allows him to erroneously get his kills on hardworking SKILLFUL players like me and many other people. I shut Garen's down early game ALL of the TIME and all they need is 1 warmogs and all of a sudden OH SHIT , time to surrender because he won't die unless we forget about 4 other enemy champions and focus all of our cc and abilities on ONE champion. SERIOUSLY, stop defending Garen right now he's stupidly overpowered.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

All of these braindead garen mains won't admit that this idiot champion is dealing too much damage. Anyone that isn't stupid knows that if you build FULL tank like 99.9% of Garen players, you should not even be able to deal HALF the damage he is doing right now. He is literally unkillable late-game as he just sprints through everything, does his ballerina spin for 20 minutes, silencing your bitch ass every 3 seconds and instakilling adc's everywhere as well as supports and there is nothing i can do (as a tank myself) but watch. This new villain system has made him so damn annoying to play against and the villain system doesnt even make sense. If my support has 0 kills why does the support become the villain randomly? It makes no sense at all. Plus his true damage is outrageous. See, I HATE vayne along with vayne enthusiasts but i'd rather go up against a vayne than a Garen right now. I keep asking myself "How is it possible to make a braindead champion like Garen overpowered?" and then i realize, Riot somehow made it possible with his outrageously spammable kit. Atleast give this bitch some mana or something because when have you ever seen a Garen use a basic attack? You don't, his spammable abilities just keep coming back and his player base have no sense of resourcefulness and now they're taking advantage of his bullshit. He is a beginner champion and his villain passive allows him to erroneously get his kills on hardworking SKILLFUL players like me and many other people. I shut Garen's down early game ALL of the TIME and all they need is 1 warmogs and all of a sudden OH SHIT , time to surrender because he won't die unless we forget about 4 other enemy champions and focus all of our cc and abilities on ONE champion. SERIOUSLY, stop defending Garen right now he's stupidly overpowered.

damage/defense ratio is not a metric you can balance a champion around alone.

youre ignoring factors like mobility, hard cc, in combat sustain (lifesteal), utility and other factors that make a champion strong.

garens job is the same as tryndameres, fioras or yasuos. the difference being, that he doesnt have their utility or mobility (or plain and simple tryns r) to survive or get to his target. so he gets more defense to offset that. mobility in this game is usually a larger factor than damage or defense of a champion.

ive seen adc with the mark above their heads sitting in his spin trying to 1v1 him without even the attempt to move. the sad thing is, this has actually worked pre rework. if thats what causes his winrate right now, then screw you. they shouldnt nerf him because people are terrible at this game. ban the champ or get murdered. if you play like that you deserve it.

Ben Sharpio2 votes

Oh god its you again, stop commenting and downvoting my shit. You give no real solutions its just a wall of text of shit everyone has already done. Do you ACTUALLY think people don't think of CC and kiting? Seriously. Stop commenting useless shit and downvoting anyone who disagrees with your stupid overpowered champion. I can't even look at any of your games because you have NONE.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Oh god its you again, stop commenting and downvoting my shit. You give no real solutions its just a wall of text of shit everyone has already done. Do you ACTUALLY think people don't think of CC and kiting? Seriously. Stop commenting useless shit and downvoting anyone who disagrees with your stupid overpowered champion. I can't even look at any of your games because you have NONE.

i dont just think people havent thought of cc and kiting, ive seen it.

when an adc is sitting in garens spin just trying to auto him, am i supposed to take any of the complaints seriously? if thats what most of the games look like then these people deserve to get killed.

if you cant figure out how to deal with him, then just ban him until you do.

Laurënt1 votes

Vayne + Botrk + Youmuu + Furror Enchantment + Triforce is your bae <3

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne + Botrk + Youmuu + Furror Enchantment + Triforce is your bae <3

If Vayne is the villain, she is dead, it doesn't matter what she buys.

Squidblimp1 votes

Vayne is about the only thing capable of dealing with a fed Garen right now, due to her Silver Bolts and her self-peel and mobility.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is about the only thing capable of dealing with a fed Garen right now, due to her Silver Bolts and her self-peel and mobility.

Vayne is dead, if he hits Q. If she uses E, he will retreat.

Eotw1 votes

Retreat from Vayne. Good one.

ReshiKillim1 votes

Garen can actually out run a Vayne. I've done it a bunch as Garen, both before and after rework.

Laurënt1 votes

You can't outrun Botrk-Youmuu-Furor Enchantment-Final Hour movement speed its <500

brownthunder881 votes

Adjusting the numbers will not change anything. If you nerf the numbers, then he is not strong enough. IF you keep the numbers, he is too strong. He needs a complete passive rework in order to better complement his abilities. Garen needs more synergy between his abilities (Q,W,E, R) and his passive. His abilities feel like they are designed to go into a fight, where as his passive rewards me for staying out of a fight. The passive is called “Perseverance”, so this should mean that he will stay alive longer than anyone else, WHILE IN THE MIDDLE of the battle. This passive alone should be enough encompass what Garen is at his core, the sturdiest soldier on all of Demacia. Garen should have his passive activate when he attacks.

Squidblimp2 votes

Please no. That would make him even harder to kill than he already is. His current passive has counterplay because you can stop it by poking him.

brownthunder881 votes

You are right, Garen's current passive has counterplay, but its not useful in battle, especially in late game. I dont argue that Garen is really strong, but you know where that leads. His stats will get nerfed, or his ability damage will get nerfed. Then he will be back to where he once was: generally not useful in a teamfight, and only strong if you and your teammates together are winning. He needs a passive that gives him more meaningful strengths and weaknesses, not just a band-aid to poke (we already got Warmog's for that). If you are interested in a suggestion of what that could look like, check this post: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6u7AM4Ik-garen-needs-a-passive-rework

Floooooooooooops1 votes

Even if they nerfed dead mans and titanic I fe like that still wouldn't solve the problem

Critmaster Garen1 votes

the statistic is scewed. first of all, garen deals a lot of aoe damage. this contributes to the endgame statistic. its the same reason why sion is usually on top of the statistic when it comes to most damage dealt. popping his w deals damage to a lot of targets. so does a garen spinning on multiple champions.

second, for the first half of the game hes ususally fighing and trading with a high health target like another bruiser or tank on top lane. if your opponent has 2k health and youre trading repeatedly with him, youre dealing more damage to him in the long run than 2 squishies with 1k hp blowing each other up in short hard fights.

also, i havent seen garen outdamage carries unless he snowballed and the carry lost.

in most of my games ive been dealing pretty much the same amount of damage as the adc, when i snowballed.

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