Thornmail is a binary item, and that is why it is "weak"

YumaS2Astral··17 votes·2,033 views

Everyone there complains about how Thornmail has been nerfed heavily with the last change, and that it needs a buff because it is unviable on any champion not named Malphite, Rammus, Nasus, or Poppy, but I disagree. Thornmail can't really be buffed, especially now that ADCs are weak.

The problem with Thornmail is taht this item is very binary. Back when it was strong, it was a hard counter to ADCs, because just by purchasing this item meant that they couldn't target you at all. They would die because they were doing what they were supposed to do; auto and do damage. Essentially, they were punished for doing the right thing. To some extent this is still true nowadays, but you are required to stack heavy amounts of armor to make Thornmail worth.

Meanwhile, this item was, and still is, useless against mages. They laugh at this item's armor and they don't auto to deal damage. At least other armor items are somewhat useful against mages, for example, Randuins, which can slow a mage with its active (and its HP is useful against their burst). This item isn't that good against AD casters either, because those don't rely on their autos and they tend to stack heavy amounts of armor penetration.

I disagree that Thornmail should be buffed, buffing it will not solve its problems (this item will still be useless against mages), and will actually worsen the problem of crit ADCs being weak now. It will actually further encourage the use of lethality ADCs, since those don't rely on their autos to do damage, and they stack heavy amounts of armor penetration.

I also don't understand why people suggest things like "make Thornmail apply Grievous Wounds" this would break this item, and also would cripple non-ADC champions which accidentally click on a tank with this item, such as Swain or Vladimir.

What Thornmail needs is a rework. I don't really have any ideas but I hope that Riot has some nice ideas for Thornmail when the tank rework comes. The only real idea I have is to change Thornmail's passive from an active instead, it would be allowed to be heavily buffed because you would have windows of time where you don't have the passive and your opponents can play around it. Also, it would also allow Riot to tweak this item's stats.

50 Comments

ZT Xperimentor13 votes

"Thornmail can't really be buffed, especially now that ADCs are weak."

Hold it right there; since when have marksmen, as an entire class, been weak? Riot never lets them.

YumaS2Astral6 votes

I admit that this phrase is poorly worded. What I actually meant to say is that crit ADCs are not in a good state. They require too much gold to be relevant, and by the time they have the items needed to be relevant, the game is probably over. In addition their build options are poor at the moment because they require 3 crit items to deal damage, but they also require lifesteal, armor penetration, and a defensive item. With 3 crit items and boots, they do not really have room for all of the three aforementioned items. In addition, many of them require to put themselves at a risky distance to deal damage with their autos.

That is why crit ADCs in particular are weak. Lethality ADCs are not as weak because they at least can deal damage from a safe distance and spike earlier.

Crit ADCs are also countered harder by Thornmail than lethality ADCs due to their reliance on auto-attacking. Also the fact that they can't afford to build lifesteal, armor penetration, and magic resistance at same time most of time.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Ah gotcha, yeah the snowballing changes have definitely screwed over anyone that relies on late game, regardless of class. Bullies have pretty much dominated because they prevent others in their class from catching up before it's too late. Carry on dude; I also much preferred back when the game had time to scale up, so you could see when everyone was most effective, and thus more variety.

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

Standgrounding2 votes

ZT Xperimentor!

They aren't really weak if you can kite.

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

Standgrounding1 votes

It has nothing to do with kiting

If you're not kiting you're wasting the range advantage the ranged character has. You aren't supposed to stand and shoot without moving. Due to range creep they should be weaker than melee fighters.

Though I agree that their items and shitty quadratic scaling with critical is just BS.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

The obvious conclusion is that I don't care about the 'pros', lol. I'm also not going to tell you who you should listen to, just providing another point of view so people on the fence can create their own thoughts by seeing both sides.

Sagan Forever2 votes

When there is a pro game where neither team has an adc then you can say they are weak.

zlumpy6 votes

Thornmail exists to counter AA and AD damage. The counter to it is magic damage. I don't really see a problem with that concept.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

So what the fuck do I do if the enemy team builds thornmail when I'm Ashe? Not auto champions?

YumaS2Astral4 votes

That is the problem with Thornmail, it heavily cripples ADCs but is useless against mages.

Other armor items are not as binary like that. They don't make tanks unsafe to attack, and they have features that make them useful against mages, even though the armor itself is useless against them:

  1. item 3143 - If you auto them you are going to have your attack speed reduced by a small percentage but you are not suiciding by attacking them, they are still a safe target. Also, this item is useful against mages because its active slows them and its HP helps against their burst.

  2. item 3068 - You are only taking damage if you are into their range, not if you auto them. And as an ADC you shouldn't let a tank be in range to damage you with Sunfire Cape's aura. Also, this item is useful against mages because it does damage against them and its HP helps against their burst.

  3. item 3742 - You only take damage if they auto you. It is physical damage and ADCs gain armor per level. Also, this item is useful against mages because the damage and slow portion from its passive still works against them. And HP helps against their burst.

  4. item 3025 - You only take damage if they auto you AFTER they cast a spell. It is physical damage and ADCs gain armor per level. Also, this item is useful against mages because it slows them and it has cooldown reduction that let you cast more spells against them. However, it admittedly does nothing to reduce their damage.

  5. item 3110 - Like Randuin's Omen, this item does not do damage at all and its main purpose is to slow enemies' attack speed. Unlike Randuin's Omen, however, this item does not have anything that helps against mages aside from the fact that by having more cooldown reduction and mana, you can cast more spells against them (and by more spells I mean, CC) - At least this item has some use against mages due to that reason alone, unlike Thornmail, which is utterly useless against mages.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Complete agree. Well said. Good job.

Maximum Morde2 votes

You either team focus fire with abilities and spells, or you ignore them and shoot the turret for a win. Or, you know, just buy a tiny bit of Mr and lifesteal.

Ralanr2 votes

Build lifesteal.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

That means I deal no damage to the thornmail user. So might as well as not bother hitting them too.

Ralanr2 votes

I mean it doesn't completely nullify your AA's.

I'm not saying that Thornmail is a good or healthy item. I've already expressed my opinion on it in this thread. I'm just saying that it has a pretty simple counter as it is now.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Agreed.

zlumpy1 votes

Rely on your magic dealing allies, ult the target, and rely on volley. Bad team comps and people refusing to rely on teamates isn't a good reason to nerf an item.

If an enemy does something that makes you play different you should play different instead of metaphorically beating your head against a wall and expecting the wall to give.

Also you could focus sustain and offset the return damage. It was mostly intended to be an item that punished people that prioritized time to kill. If you went for the most killy build you ended up working against yourself if they built thornmail but if you started going sustained damage and lifesteal you could offset the thornmail.

Anags1 votes

Build a scimitar and it doesn't matter anymore? It's pretty simple really.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail exists to counter AA and AD damage. The counter to it is magic damage. I don't really see a problem with that concept.

It gives less effective health against AD and AA than item 3143 item 3742 item 3068 Nub trap item. Only good if you care about the dmg component like with rammus

zlumpy2 votes

The current version absolutely. I meant more in line with classic thronmail and its concept. Back when it was a situational tank item that did its job better. Current one is so super niche it's just not that good.

Smitemuffin4 votes

No, Thornmail is weak because AD champs can get +24 Lethality from marks and quints only, shred 30% of it with their first item item 3071 and ignore 52% more of it with one mastery and item 3035

There goes your thornmail

Irelia Bot3 votes

It has no situation is which it is even worth considering outside of potentially Rammus.

Even Rammus is a stretch.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

It is technically viable on Malphite, Poppy, and Taric too, due to their permanent percentage armor steroids which make Thornmail stronger and more efficient. Malphite, in particular, scale heavily with armor (his E scales with armor and AP, his W too, his kit in general is very anti-AD oriented) - problem is, none of them can afford to build this item in most situations outside of against a full AD composition.

Salron3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8VzWxqfM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-17T02:54:24.593+0000) Rammus is a stretch.

ok now you're just exaggerating hilariously hard

GULAG 4 U3 votes

I agree with your overall message, but not so much with your statement of ADCs being weak.

Arakadia1 votes

Same!

Xela Syab2 votes

Thornmail is crap because armor doesn't do anything anymore and it doesn't have hp, also ad champs have too many mr options so they mitigate the damage received. You get more damage mitigation and better damage from item 3068.

notice me Sin pi2 votes

thornmail's currrent passive should either become

  1. an item active that lasts few seconds

or

  1. a passive that only activates for few seconds upon receiving an aa from enemy champ and goes on cd sort of like banshee's veil

and instead buff that passive. That way there's actually a counterplay for adcs while making it stronger for tanks as well.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Not only that.

Thornmail is also (comparatively) weak, since it only gives Armor and that damage return passive. While this makes it great at its intended purpose of countering Lifesteal (Armor reduces damage taken and therefore Lifesteal, and the damage return effectively negates/reduces the remaining healing), it doesn't offer much else to the tanks who would want to take it, and is thus seldomly worth the item slot.

I think Thornmail would be used more if Riot gave it a final gold cost of 2800 to 3200 gold and some stats beyond Armor. Maybe some HP regen or Mana regen? Or CdR (tanks lack another 10% CdR option, after all...)?

Sckullzz2 votes

Also, it's a specialized item... So yes, it is expected to be strong against mostly ad-aa teams and pointless against mages. That's it's job.

Spoofghoul2 votes

item 3075 is actually not so oppressive vs adc

They have access to any of the following items to counter it's return damage

item 3071 reduced armor is reduced return damage item 3139 magic resist & lifesteal this is arguably the best thorns counter item and is often bought for the active alone which helsp vs the tanks cc item 3156 similar to scimitar for countering thornmail with mr and a bit of sustain during passive and passive also counters thornmail and most of tanks damage item 3814 ad item with mr and a useful active helps vs tanks cc like scimitar item 3111 more mr item 3046 12% reduced damage this includes thorn mails return damage item 1053 and other items built from it as the lifesteal directly counters the thornmail damage

Then there is a whole bunch of other factors which also help vs thornmail like Supports with shields & heals Or items like these to keep you topped off item 3190 item 3109 item 3107

And even masteries like warlords and stoneborn pact help to stay healthy from thornmail

Not to mention how useless armorstacking has become with builds like item 3071 item 3033 item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 still around Even just item 3035 already majorly screws over armor

And despite all that adc still have access to regular defensive items, anything with hp or mr will greatly help

And beyond that there are situational things like a runaans + lifesteal vs 1 thornmail and things like that which make it weak af too

Thornmail could definitely use a buff

The main reason it was nerfed was not because it was binary but because it was such a good stand alone defensive item back when it got nerfed. Many of the current counters were either limited or not available and thornmail worked differently by returning a flat 30% of incoming damage back to sender. What often happened was like 3 thornmails on a team and adc had trouble dealing with it so it got nerfed

Thornmail would be better off if it dealth true damage scaling with the users hp & armor instead of magic damage scaling off the enemies damage

Standgrounding1 votes

item 3091

Maximum Morde2 votes

Getting right clicked is binary gameplay, and that is why it should be weak. But Rito never got the memo.

SwiftKitten882 votes

umm item 3075 is an item that gives ARMOR... it's not SUPPOSED to be good vs mages... my god.. that's like saying... "we need to make item 3031 better on champs like Syndra , she isn't good enough wit it... "

Standgrounding1 votes

What about making her R crit?

INoble KnightI1 votes

item 3042 already works on Syndra R

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

now that ADCs are weak.

they arent. theyre just not sitting on top of everybody else.

marksmen are still regularly carrying games. theyre just not always the carries.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

item 3075 is just better now in a lethality meta.

You're correct that the item is pretty bad against mages but you're neglecting 2 things:

A) A ton of armor lets you tower dive easily. Guess who hates being tower dived? Mages.

B) People don't play mages nearly as much since the assassin update. And a ton of armor in a single purchase absolutely destroys a lethality stacking assassin like Zed or Talon.

Thornmail is much better against assassins than it is against ADCs. You just have to stop thinking about it for the passive and think about it for that sweet sweet 100 armor instead.

"But Frozen Heart -"

Frozen Heart costs 500 more gold. Thornmail is, therefore, easier to rush. Also it becomes better if you're buying Ninja Tabi as well.

jadelink1 votes

It's still a frequently built item, at all levels, on many tanks. In the (now quite frequent) multiple adc meta we find ourselves in (i was up against cait bot, varus mid and graves jg last night), it can be a very good buy. I get it on any tank top who has to face trynd.

Mundo is a good candidate for it. It's very useful on any immobile juggernaught (who can easily become lifesteal fodder if they don't get it),

I don't think its often a good first item, but very nice midgame against the heavy AD comps (or all AD comps) that are now so common. It needs HP to back it up, but it isn't really a first item.

Ralanr1 votes

I don't think Thornmail should exist as an anti AA item. It punishes ADCs for fighting tanks correctly (sustained damage).

Kinda like how LDR punishes tanks for building their health up (yes I know, obvious bias is obvious).

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Well, if you build ENOUGH health, LDRs bonus damage actually starts to fall off.

Ralanr1 votes

What amount we talking?

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Well, let's see. item 3036's bonus maxes at 1000 health difference, so…starting from 1001 health, I'd assume? It's still the same bonus, but, compared to your heath total, it becomes slowly weaker.

Ralanr1 votes

It's still punishing tanks for building how they are supposed to build. Which I don't find healthy.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

But it's not unhealthy. Marksmen (and, theoretically, any high-DPS champion that can stick to you) are meant to kill tanks. Just like tanks are supposed to beat assassins. Just like assassins are supposed to beat marksmen. If marksmen lose the ability to kill tanks, tanks become literately unstoppable, except for 5v1 situations where the entire team is just wailing on you for 20+ seconds. if tanks lose the ability to survive assassins, they become useless, and assassins become unstoppable monstrosities. And if assassins lose the ability to delete marksmen, marksmen become unkillable, because tanks won't have the damage to do it. Any of these three situations are absolutely terrible, so, of course items that are meant to enable this counter triangle have to exist. Tanks get item 3065 and item 3102 (primarily, because most deleters are AP), assassins get whatever item they need to give moar damagez, and marksmen get the two item 3035 items. It's how the over-arching high-meta is maintained.

Ralanr1 votes

Except crit and %armor pen were already the main counters to tanks from ADCs because of their sustained damage.

The only part I don't like about it is that is scales with my health difference from the marksmans. I'm being hurt more for building correctly.

At least normal LW only bypasses 45% of my bonus armor.

agbudar1 votes

atm its better against people like Jax Yasuo Tryndamere XinZhao Fiora Olaf

which im totally fine with

INoble KnightI1 votes

I stopped reading when you said ADC's are weak. Yeah when you see this build item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 item 3071 item 3072 and choice of boots on most current ADCs then Thornmail feels pointless

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