"We had to change Veigar because he could burst without counterplay"

TaoistMaster·Feb 15, 2015·15 votes·964 views

23 Comments

SaltyToplaneGoatFeb 15, 20157 votes

Actually Zed HAS counterplay... Old Veigar on the other hand...

Imagine getting hit by Veigar's stun and get blown up by two unavoidable point&click nukes. Plus a dark matter you can't dodge because of the stun.

The problem with Zed isn't his kit, but an itemisation problem... Armor penetration is just too strong...

KhristophorosFeb 15, 20152 votes

By counterplay you mean item 3140 ? Same with Veigar.

It's not actually counterplay btw. The counterplay to Zed is somehow dodge his stuff in point blank range after he ults you.

qetzelFeb 15, 20152 votes

Nah. You should know exactly when his ultimate will land and where (behind you, and it has the same delay each time), giving you the perfect stun. You can also time a flash or dash (if you have one) to go off just after he lands - he doesn't get much off if you do that.

There is also the option of "Don't go off alone if you don't know where Zed is" (same applies to Veigar, but to a lesser extent).

There is a relatively large amount of counterplay to Zed during fights - that is what makes him healthy. That counterplay is... mitigated... by other things that he can do, for example, splitpush.

Pvt Yong TaiFeb 15, 20154 votes

If veigar gets close enough to you, and deems you as a worthy execution target (i.e. adc or apc) and he has the time to 100-0 you AND get out clean, then you did something wrong with your positioning.

He might not have "counterplay", but there are plenty of preventative measures you can take AND several simple item counters if he poses that much of a problem. "preventionplay" and "counteritemization", if you will.

A better question to ask would be, why didn't you kill Veigar faster than he killed you? He's as squishy as Shaco, without the stealth and without the blink or invincible frames.

Seriously though. "omg I got 100-0'd by Veigar coz he caught me out cry op gg 4lyfe". It's like crying that you lost a duel to Trundle. You're only seeing his good side.

LlaniteFeb 15, 20153 votes

It takes half a second to RQ which does 2500 dmg if both have 600 AP. Maybe it's hard for some people to press that 2 buttons precisely but definitely not majority.

I might accept he takes a decent risk to RQ someone if they have 200 range, but nope, he has the same range as an adc's AA, to your logic, Poppy deserves to oneshot everyone, judging how much risk she takes to AA.

Ok, I should kill Veigar before he kills me, with RQ taking 0.5s to land, and a underfed Veigar has 1600 HP, I should pull 3200 dmg a second post-mitigation, ~5000 pre-mitigation, please promote a candidate?

Pvt Yong TaiFeb 16, 20151 votes

Literally anybody who can withstand the RQ. What, you think he has damage besides RQ? With W being an easy dodge, and DFG removed from the game, you really think you can't build one MR item and withstand 2500 effective damage?

If a Veigar can't kill you first, he's dead. If you're having issues with the 2500 effective damage, then you're probably a carry. (less than 1700 HP and 50 MR). You should have the damage to duel him.

If you're a bruiser, then you're not really worried about 2500 effective damage burst, are you? Rip him apart. He can't kill you when he's losing out on about 1000 damage off W.

Ah right, a candidate. Did you read the OP?

LlaniteFeb 16, 20151 votes

He can't do crap after the retarded QR, which makes him stupidly toxic AND underpower.

Now w/ Q being skill shot, he can do more after the initial QR but also make it dodge-able. Totally a good change.

Pvt Yong TaiFeb 16, 20151 votes

Lol I don't know who "he" is, but assuming you're talking about Veigar, yeah of course he can't do anything after. He just used his combo. Lay into him.

Assuming Zed, then if you're crying about QR, then you haven't even tried to survive his most basic combo. A Veigar pre-6 is timid and vulnerable. Lay into him before he can farm up. Not doing so would be like letting Nasus farm for free in top lane.

Serenity NowFeb 15, 20156 votes

Riot needs to be better about qualifying their statements.

The quote above would go over MUCH better if they would acknowledge other champions with the same issue and confirm they have plans for them.

Instead, it comes off looking arbitrary and reeks of favoritism of one champ over another.

AkesgerothFeb 15, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8RjAjvxR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-15T13:52:45.012+0000) Instead, it comes off looking arbitrary and reeks of favoritism of one champ over another.

So, they communicated their design philosophy perfectly?

SmokinSickStyleFeb 15, 20154 votes

Annie maybe.

Zed doesn't have stun+burst so you are a sitting duck when he decides to go on you, also Zed is an assassin, Veigar a mage, if his burst pattern of E-W-Q-R is unhealthy because of skilled players landing a good stun then why Annie still exists?

You don't even need skill.

Zed as an assassin is ALWAYS gonna get an edge over mages or in 1vs1 situations, he just has the extra of a very good lanephase, but mages change those things for superior burst which usually comes in AoE with lots of CC.

Where Annie and other mage fit perfectly.

Mobility counts against mages only when you find someone with skillshots, but someone that has targetted CC you cannot do anything, inb4 annie short range lol.

JunkοFeb 15, 20153 votes

Zed has counterplay, he telegraphs his ultimate over an entire second and then needs to actually use his other abilities so CC chain him or buy an item that coutners his ult. Though Veigar also has counterplay in form of staying out of range, forcing him to use abilities to protect himself instead of offensively or counterbuilding.

Also Riot never said that

BakedLotionFeb 15, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8RjAjvxR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-15T14:00:32.108+0000)

Zed has counterplay, he telegraphs his ultimate over an entire second and then needs to actually use his other abilities so CC chain him or buy an item that coutners his ult. Though Veigar also has counterplay in form of staying out of range, forcing him to use abilities to protect himself instead of offensively or counterbuilding.

Also Riot never said that

Its not like Zed has another blink or anything, or like a high ass movespeed. Oh and its not like his cast times are almost irrelevant because its instant...

JunkοFeb 15, 20152 votes

He has to use his blink for offense and it shows you where he will blink to (just like his ult shows exactly who he will appear next too), so it is fairly easy to ready your CC. MS won't help him at all. And his cast time actually last at least half a second.

TaoistMasterFeb 15, 20153 votes

If zed was so counterable he wouldn't be banned every game.

TauNoob1Feb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If zed was so counterable he wouldn't be banned every game.

Untrue, people who ban him don't know how to play against him, never giving them the chance to learn from fighting him. It's not all that hard to beat a Zed if people quit whining and do something proactive about it.

RisurinFeb 15, 20151 votes

item 3140 item 3157 item 3139

avoiding 1v1 one of the strongest dueslist of the game, without being a duelist yourself, may or may not be a good idea too. Example : Vayne can fight him and outplay him.