Does Grasp feel a bit too weak now to anyone else?

zecastar·Dec 7, 2016·115 votes·5,430 views

I'm not sure what it is and maybe I'm wrong but Grasp feels a bit underwhelming to me. Has it gotten weaker somehow?

97 Comments

Big LincolnDec 7, 201626 votes

yes

the problem with grasp is it does 2 things, damage AND sustain, and both of them scale with health. it should either be purely extra damage (so that tanky fighters have some magic damage to mix in) or purely sustain (so that said fighters can survive longer provided they apply Grasp as much as possible)

having both makes it hard to balance.

Sahn UzalDec 7, 201659 votes

I'd love to see Riot change it to pure sustain. I don't think Pure damage would be a good option.

I think we've seen enough of what happens when tanks can deal damage. Just let us tank things please and most of us will be happy.

ToastersaotDec 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-07T15:40:39.457+0000)

I'd love to see Riot change it to pure sustain. I don't think Pure damage would be a good option.

I think we've seen enough of what happens when tanks can deal damage. Just let us tank things please and most of us will be happy.

I think that making Grasp pure damage is the way to go. There are plenty of champions (most of them Juggernauts) who would do better with more damage coming from their tankiness while still getting the defensive options in the resolve tree. Pure Tanks already have Courage of the Colossus for more tankiness, but we need a keystone that would help champions that benefit off of tankiness with more damage.

SzGamer227Dec 7, 201610 votes

There are lots of ways that tanks can build so that they have lots of health and still deal damage, but in-combat sustain that scales with max health is very hard to come by, and (as far as I know) only available as innate parts of a champion's kit. Hell, Titanic Hydra is an item that any tank can pick up to convert their health pool into damage output, but there's no such thing as an item that has healing that scales with max health other than Warmog's Armor, whose bonus is only used out of combat. I'd like to see Grasp shifted more towards sustain just so that the max health sustain niche is a bit more accessible.

Grasp of the Undying feels weak because neither its sustain nor its damage are significant enough to make it a very impressive keystone, and you don't feel much of a bonus in either area, so I do think it should be more specialized to one or the other. If it dealt pure damage however, it would be covered up by items like Dead Man's or Titanic that give tanks similar combat bonuses. Changing it to provide % max HP sustain only would give it its own niche as an alternative to health regen or lifesteal for tanks who build lots of health, and also keep it relevant later game (like CotC is) instead of being outclassed by standard tank items.

RogueWillDec 8, 20162 votes

That's because they removed in-combat regeneration and changed to off-combat. Warmhogs used to have a weaker regen but woudl work all the time extending your life instead f forcing you to engage, disengage wait 12 sec and reengage again

Auz the RipperDec 8, 20161 votes

Haha, I remember lifestealing from thin air

RogueWillDec 8, 20163 votes

is not lifestealing is the force luke....the force gives you life!

Sire HippingtonDec 7, 201623 votes

I found it underwhelming ever since the nerf that gutted the sustain it gave. Now with CoC beeing a thing, it just becomes more apparent how bad it has become.

Imo they should just scrap the damage part of it and buff the sustain. If they fear that it allows for to careless and stale lanes, i think the approach where it no longer stacks on minions but only in fight with champs would be good, meaning you actually have to go for a extendet trade if you want that sustain in lane.

KrynulDec 7, 20167 votes

it's certainly less flashy than colossus and I think that's the issue. Everyone is spamming colossus on every champion. I've seen people running it on champions that don't even HAVE CC.

Regardless of colossus' actual power level, it is visibly more obvious than grasp. It actually used to be the same for grasp last season. It was clearly more visible than strength of ages or bond of stone and was probably far more popular on anyone who wasn't jungling.

Sire HippingtonDec 7, 20164 votes

It was clearly more visible than strength of ages or bond of stone and was probably far more popular on anyone who wasn't jungling.

Thats not why it was more popular. Bond of stone is not exactly a good or exciteing mastery, and even worse in sololanes, and SoA was VERY hard to stack in sololanes, so grasp was prettymuch the only viable keystone for sololaners in resolve.

Which is similar to CoC not only beeing more flashy and obvious, but also beeing clearly the best option in resolve for anyone that can use it. And for people that run it on no CC champs and thus obviously don't read, well, no one can save them from their own ignorance. There are always pretty stupid people, or maybe just people that didn't switch masteries in time.(just recently saw a brand with windspeakers, and he wasn't even support)

SirLimeDec 7, 20168 votes

Bond of stone is a good idea but I still feel it's outclassed by CoC for most supports. Most of the supports who take Bond of Stone are tanky engage champions with a lot of CC, such as Alistar. CoC makes them far tankier during the engage than Bond of Stone and seems to synergize better. I feel like Bond of Stone should give just slightly more damage reduction like 4.5% so it can be a better choice for tanky supports facing poke.

Dynamiku EntryDec 7, 20163 votes

Bond of Stone is meant to protect your adc, if you're taking CoC on a tanky engage champ you're likely to outlive your adc or they just die when an assassin dives them since you're so busy diving the enemy front line because you got a sheild. Take Bond of Stone and build Knight's Vow, and do your job.

Glory ln DeathDec 7, 20168 votes

Not every support is a Warden. If you're playing a Vanguard, you're better off using Colossus, in which case jumping into the enemy team is your job.

RogueWillDec 8, 20162 votes

I like grasp on my Vanguards (supports) over CoC, the extra damage scares the shit out of adc and I'm highly unlikly to get focused earky game making CoC quite the overkill

Dynamiku EntryDec 8, 20161 votes

You can downvote me all you want haha. You're still wrong

LankPantsDec 8, 20163 votes

I've seen people running it on champions that don't even HAVE CC.

That's normally when people forget to change masteries. For example I ran CotC on Akali yesterday, I would have preferred literally any other keystone, I'd just played Cho'gath the game before and suck at remembering to change.

MagikarpIsBossDec 8, 20161 votes

That doesnt change the fact that for a while the most common and highest winrate masteries for nunu had CotC. He has no hard cc at all and the shield is only proc-able by making someone fly with a plant.

Scroll down to the masteries portion: http://champion.gg/champion/Nunu

God RaijinDec 7, 20163 votes

Grasp's scaling being shit is the real problem with it in comparison to some of the other mastery options.

Lets run some numbers of Grasp VS fervor of battle; So say I am a tank with 4k HP; at most I can do 120 magic damage and heal 60 per 4 seconds with grasp.

lets talk about the potential HP disparity overall it could create with whoever you are fighting (not factoring in resistances) --so 60 healing and 120 damage could create 180 HP disparity per 4 seconds. or **45 per second **

Now (this patch) fervor at max stacks can grant 64 AD. Say an ADC has about 2 attacks per second late game (no crit in this example) they can create up to 64x2 per second or **128 hp disparity per second. **

still using 2.00 attack speed (If you do want to factor in 50% crit), say item 3031 and a runan's or PD etc.. you should crit every other auto on average, meaning 2.5 times 64=160. then add 64 from your non crit auto =224 per second. and that's not including AD scaling on abilities that fervor can give and grasp doesn't

So all in all Grasp might be giving you 45 per second late game while fervor could be giving 224 Which is 1 point shy of being 5 TIMES stronger than Grasp late game.

AtheosisXDec 7, 20161 votes

No ADC can sit in combat dealing constant damage like that. They have to position to get their attacks off and enemies will likewise be positioning to keep from being auto-attacked or to engage and neutralize them. At best you have to cut the benefit from fervor in half in your example. Also Grasp triggers immediately in combat allowing for advantages on quick trades, while Fervor requires continuous attacks to ramp up. Note, this is not an argument that Grasp is good right now. It's clearly under-tuned. But we can't compare things with such faulty logic and conclude anything meaningful.

God RaijinDec 7, 20163 votes

Well in late game team fights you are typically constantly hitting the thing closest to you (most often their front line), sure there will be some breaks in where you are not attacking, like if you have to flash away from things/ move in between autos or chase someone, but more often than not, you are hitting something or you are sitting around being useless. Also at least with fervor they buffed it and it doesn't fall off for 6 seconds now so it's not difficult to reap greater benefit from it on average.

And I didn't even go into the fact that people do builds with more than 50% crit, Its not uncommon to see item 3085 item 3046 item 3031 Which can give up to 281.6 damage per second if you are around 2.00 attack speed. And again it definitely could be significantly more than that With AD scalings on abilities; like a Vayne tumble for example.

But look I get it that you aren't always going to get that best case scenario, where you are constantly AA'ing something, but you can say the same thing about grasp, where you aren't always going to get that proc every single 4 second interval, especially since basically only melee champions take it, it's much easier to get kited which can greatly reduce the /per-second effectiveness of grasp, eg: you might only be proc'ing it every 6-7 seconds rather every 4.

so when you think about the two of them both not getting their full benefit at 100% possible efficiency per second, proportionately, I don't think fervor being up to 5 times as effective late-game is a long shot or "faulty logic"

Asayake 5150glowDec 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-12-07T18:43:33.997+0000)

Grasp's scaling being shit is the real problem with it in comparison to some of the other mastery options.

Lets run some numbers of Grasp VS fervor of battle; So say I am a tank with 4k HP; at most I can do 120 magic damage and heal 60 per 4 seconds with grasp.

lets talk about the potential HP disparity overall it could create with whoever you are fighting (not factoring in resistances) --so 60 healing and 120 damage could create 180 HP disparity per 4 seconds. or **45 per second **

Now (this patch) fervor at max stacks can grant 64 AD. Say an ADC has about 2 attacks per second late game (no crit in this example) they can create up to 64x2 per second or **128 hp disparity per second. **

still using 2.00 attack speed (If you do want to factor in 50% crit), say and a runan's or PD etc.. you should crit every other auto on average, meaning 2.5 times 64=160. then add 64 from your non crit auto =224 per second. and that's not including AD scaling on abilities that fervor can give and grasp doesn't

So all in all Grasp might be giving you 45 per second late game while fervor could be giving 224 Which is 1 point shy of being 5 TIMES stronger than Grasp late game.

Part of the strength of Grasp is that you can keep it up by hitting minions/taking minion aggro, so it much benefits this awkward style of trading which involves proccing grasp, doing a combo, walking just in range to make the other player feel that we're still fighting, but stay just out of range for either one to do damage, and after 4 seconds you walk back in and get another grasp proc.

It feels really satisfying to pull that off.

God RaijinDec 7, 20161 votes

Yeah, I mean, it's still pretty good in lane/ early game for that reason, it just turns to shit when the game hits the grouping/team-fighting stage. Were it is far weaker as a mastery in general in comparison to champions who can take things like warlord's, fervor, Courage of Colossus, or even windspeaker's (what with the new item 3190 sheild, and item 3107 heal and all.)

Asayake 5150glowDec 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2016-12-07T21:04:33.779+0000)

Yeah, I mean, it's still pretty good in lane/ early game for that reason, it just turns to shit when the game hits the grouping/team-fighting stage. Were it is far weaker as a mastery in general in comparison to champions who can take things like warlord's, fervor, Courage of Colossus, or even windspeaker's (what with the new sheild, and heal and all.)

Uh... not windspeakers, it doesn't scale at all, but the others more yeah.

God RaijinDec 7, 20163 votes

How does it not scale? If you get a 5 man heal/ shield like a locket, redemption, Janna ult etc. it collectively can give your team 110 bonus armor, 55 magic resist, and whatever the extra 10% is depending on your shield and heal amount. Edit: well I guess its a little less since you dont get the resists your self, but same idea

Gregor GysiDec 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-12-07T18:43:33.997+0000)

(not factoring in resistances) -

You could atleast try not to appear biased as fuck.. I mean, you are comparing apples to bananas anyways, so I don't know what to expect, but come on, dude.

Now (this patch) fervor at max stacks can grant 64 AD. Say an ADC has about 2 attacks per second late game (no crit in this example) they can create up to 64x2 per second or **128 hp disparity per second. **

You know what would happen when a 4k HP 250 Armor 130 MR tank and a 2k HP <90 AR/MR marksman have the same "hp disparity per second".

The tank would kill the marksman more than 4 times in a row, goddamn.

*still using 2.00 attack speed [...] and that's not including AD scaling on abilities that fervor can give and grasp doesn't

Yes, you are being SO considerate. Every AD can just maintain 2.00 AS while also shutterstepping perfectly AND using some additional AD scaling. Let's face it man, ADCs with AD scaling do not have 2.00 AS and will get WAY less autoattacks out when they are using their skills. Your comparison is ridiculous and you (should) know it.

God RaijinDec 7, 20163 votes

Ok, so it's not like Ever-so-Popular champions like Twitch Can't multiply the power of fervor so fucking effectively, He get's that fat 50% bonus attack speed on his Q, His Ult hits multiple people, and item 3085 bolts get powered up by fervor as well which are also hitting multiple people

and proceed to E them for up to 25% bonus AD times the number of venom stacks times the number of people they are on...hell, if you hit 3 people at 6 venom that is 450% bonus AD scaling on his E that barely even has a cast time.

Hell even if you aren't playing twitch there are other champions who still use item 3085 like Caitlyn Which is still going to multiply the power of fervor late game, that grasp comes now where close to. Not to mention champions like cait have AD scalings built into shit like her passive that doesn't stop you from auto attacking.

The effectiveness of fervor is just so much stronger than grasp because people abuse the power of multiplication, but apparently you just can't imagine for yourself how that could possibly work.

Edit: it's also pretty evident that you didn't see my post below this one talking about how you aren't going to get grasp off every single 4 second interval like-wise of not being able to always auto 2x/second, which proportionately, still makes the statement of 1/5 of fervors power late game.

Gregor GysiDec 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a00020000,timestamp=2016-12-07T21:50:48.121+0000)

Ok, so it's not like Ever-so-Popular champions like Can't multiply the power of fervor so fucking effectively, He get's that fat 50% bonus attack speed on his Q, His Ult hits multiple people, and bolts get powered up by fervor as well which are also hitting multiple people

and proceed to E them for up to 25% bonus AD times the number of venom stacks times the number of people they are on...hell, if you hit 3 people at 6 venom that is 450% bonus AD scaling on his E that barely even has a cast time.

And then there are champions like Tristana that do not have any AD scaling.. Twitch has to be balanced accordingly, but it's only natural that different champions will use the masteries differently.

The effectiveness of fervor is just so much stronger than grasp because people abuse the power of multiplication, but apparently you just can't imagine for yourself how that could possibly work.

But it doesn't compete with Grasp which is why it's so ridiculous that you are comparing them. FoB is (was atleast in the last patch) worse than Warlords, but you don't seem to be able to understan that different masteries do different things for different people who want different things.

Edit: it's also pretty evident that you didn't see my post below this one talking about how you aren't going to get grasp off every single 4 second interval like-wise of not being able to always auto 2x/second, which proportionately, still makes the statement of 1/5 of fervors power late game.

Simple solution: get your math right the next time. HP =/= HP.

You know what would happen when a 4k HP 250 Armor 130 MR tank and a 2k HP <90 AR/MR marksman have the same "hp disparity per second".

But yea, just assume that every ADC has tons of resistances additionally to 2 as.

God RaijinDec 8, 20161 votes

Well I honestly don't understand half of what you are attempting to type in this post, I don't think you understand the point of this thread either, it's about Grasp being WEAK right now, I'm comparing it to fervor, because fervor is NOT weak. A majority of of the champions who use grasp are completely out of the meta because it is weak, and their "best" option that they would want to take (Grasp of the Undying) is not good. Im saying: GRASP IS WEAK - champions who use grasp are therefor weaker, meaning that champions who don't use grasp are therefor better picks. SO what I'M suggesting is that grasp scale BETTER than it does now so that CHAMPIONS who run GRASP can be on an EVEN PLAYING FIELD with champions who don't RUN GrAsP

Gregor GysiDec 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:09:41.710+0000)

Well I honestly don't understand half of what you are attempting to type in this post, I don't think you understand the point of this thread either, it's about Grasp being WEAK right now, I'm comparing it to fervor

Yeah, I understand that. I do wonder though, why don't you understand that Fervor and Grasp are made for different people? What makes you think that it would make sense to compare them?

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:09:41.710+0000)

because fervor is NOT weak.

Eh, it was rather weak last patch. Most marksmen took Warlords, many of those who used to take it do now prefer CotC (Riven, Renek come to mind)

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:09:41.710+0000)

A majority of of the champions who use grasp are completely out of the meta because it is weak, and their "best" option that they would want to take (Grasp of the Undying) is not good. Im saying: GRASP IS WEAK - champions who use grasp are therefor weaker, meaning that champions who don't use grasp are therefor better picks.

Well, that is because CotC outshines the tank tree, period. Grasp is the keystone for tank toplaners (or used to be) - now we got a new super OP tank keystone and - SURPRISE - many tanks that could take it, took it. CotC is the keystone you should compare it to as this is the direct rival.

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:09:41.710+0000)

SO what I'M suggesting is that grasp scale BETTER than it does now so that CHAMPIONS who run GRASP can be on an EVEN PLAYING FIELD with champions who don't RUN GrAsP

But comparing it to a different keystone that is mainly taken by botlane marksmen doesn't make sense. Many toplaners that used to take it don't anymore so your implication that Grasp users have gotten replaced by FoB users has simply no basis.

And again, even if you don't understand why your whole comparison doesn't make sense, it's about time you realize that ignoring resistances simply doesn't make sense. If you acknowledged them you'd have to triple the heal from Grasp and significantly reduce the damage of FoB compared to the damage of Grasp.

God RaijinDec 8, 20161 votes

So by that logic, bot laners can have a decent mastery, but top laners with no hard cc cant. shouldn't compare the 2 though, no correlation at all. clearly im out of my mind. It's not like grevious wounds exist. it's not like the damage from grasp is lowered from mr either. it's not like marksmen ignore a fat stack of your armor either. Just fucking think man. it's like I don't need to state every single fucking last digit of math to obviously know fervor scales better. but apparently I need to write an entire 10 part book series to expalin it to you

Gregor GysiDec 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:50:58.620+0000)

So by that logic, bot laners can have a decent mastery, but top laners with no hard cc cant.

No, you can't seem to grasp logic.

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:50:58.620+0000)

shouldn't compare the 2 though, no correlation at all. clearly im out of my mind.

WTF Maokai doesn't have the same DPS as a Vayne?!?! Good riddance, that's so unfair, here is the math:

Maokai 4k HP no resistances vs Vayne no resistances with 2 AS and tons of crit. Maokai damage like 100 and Vayne like over 9k so unfair. Just because Bot laners can have damage top laners can't, I no undestand ?!!

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:50:58.620+0000)

It's not like grevious wounds exist. it's not like the damage from grasp is lowered from mr either.

Yeah man, most ADCs have TONS of MR. 60 HP on a tank is thrice of 60 HP on a marksman with only little resistances.

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000a000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T00:50:58.620+0000)

it's like I don't need to state every single fucking last digit of math to obviously know fervor scales better. but apparently I need to write an entire 10 part book series to expalin it to you

Grasp scales with resistances. You ignore resistances. Grasp doesn't seem to scale as well, weeeirrdddd. Your math was useless and you know it by now.

God RaijinDec 8, 20161 votes

So healing 60 hp (at 4k max hp) with 50% damage reduction (=120 effective hp per 4seconds)

(So why am I using 50% well it's because Items like item 3071 item 3033 exist and it's fair to assume those type of items will be built to deal with tanky champions.)

So Grasp is effectively healing you for 30 hp per second and fervor can be dealing 1126.4 per 4 at 80% crit (2.00 attack speed) so factor in the damage reduction and that is 563.2 then divide that by 4 to get the per second damage =140.8 per second. Oh and don't forget that 30 healing per second will more than likely be reduced to thanks to Grevious wounds =**18 healing per second VS 140.8 damage per second. **

If you want to add the benefit of the magic damage on grasp, it's safe to assume even for a marksman that at least 25% of the damage from it will be ignored by MR, so a tank at 4 k hp will deal 90 damage after resists per 4seconds; SO thats 22.5 damage per 1 second. if you were to add that to the total disparity 18healing plus 22.5 damage =40.5 VS fervor's 140.8..... Fervor is still.... DRUM ROLL

**3.4765 TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE LATE GAME ** well fuck me right? I said it was around 5 times more effective and it is only 3 and a half. I was so fucking out of the ball park on that one. it's Practically like fervor doesn't even outsclae grasp. And It's almost like I forgot to even mention how AD Scalings and item 3085 dont even make it more than 3.5 times stronger than grasp. (sarcasm -because it does)

Look maybe my first post didn't get into all of this, but in the end, fervor is easily 5 times stronger than grasp late game. Especially since you aren't only going to be hitting the tank who would be mitigating the most of fervor's per second effectiveness.

Gregor GysiDec 8, 20161 votes

Good and now consider that Fervor isn't fully stacked at the beginning of the fight while grasp actually could be (thanks minions) and that stacking Fervor would need 4 seconds build-up in a perfect scenario while tanks have the 4 seconds guaranteed. And then consider that tanks have double the HP.

Boom, it's disparity is about 1.5 times higher while having more utility due to providing sustain AND damage and also having a way nicer laningphase as FoB will never get fully stacked in lane.

God RaijinDec 8, 20161 votes

Well "could be" is a could be, but lets assume it is already stacked at the beginning of a fight - you wouldn't be healing anything, because it's the start of the fight and presumably you would be full hp. But if we are still using any practical thinking, it's far more likely that a melee champion is going to have a far harder time to even get grasp off because they are easier to kite. Also the idea that Life steal applies to fervor is another way that it scales which, if even at 10 lifesteal with a item 3153 or something is giving fervor even higher effectiveness. which is even further scaled because it's not like adc's dont have any resists.

RisenDarkKnightDec 7, 20163 votes

At least grasp does something. Bond of stone actually just makes you feel like you don't have a keystone. I get that it gives a little damage reduction, but it is so inappreciable compared to other keystones.

Courage just overshadows the other 2 keystones in resolve too much, even after the nerfs.

zecastarDec 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

At least grasp does something. Bond of stone actually just makes you feel like you don't have a keystone. I get that it gives a little damage reduction, but it is so inappreciable compared to other keystones.

Courage just overshadows the other 2 keystones in resolve too much, even after the nerfs.

Bond of Stone is definitely noticeable. Take a game without a keystone to compare and get back to me. Not everything has to have a visual effect to be meaningful. Is Frozen Heart's aura also pointless to you?

Anyway, it's a defensive mastery meant to help your team more than just yourself. Like for auras, feeling the impact comes down to experience.

Gregor GysiDec 7, 20162 votes

It is simply not satisfying to use and yes, aura effects are extremely hard to appreciate which is why they tend to be overtuned (Riot has talked A LOT about this matter).

MagikarpIsBossDec 8, 20162 votes

Also, Bond of Stone is a mastery that was taken on tanky support champions. All (or at least a vast majority) of those tanky supports have some form of hard cc. So along with it generally being weak, they can now take CotC, effectively making BoS useless.

rtbf225618241Dec 7, 20163 votes

Like honestly, this thing behaves awesomely because it offers a very distinct mechanic that you hold onto combat for 4 seconds and they can anticipate your attack afterwards if they know you have it but then again, if this thing actually did something for fighter/tank hybrids then it would actually be worth using because right now i feel like this only has an impact in the very early levels. The rest is a joke.

Meep ManDec 7, 20162 votes

I think they should reduce the timer to 2.5 seconds in my opinion instead of 4 seconds.

5000000000000000Dec 7, 20165 votes

What if the CD charged faster the more procs you've made consecutively? First proc happens after 4 seconds, the next one at 3, and the next at 2. Somewhat like hecarim Q. In combat sustain is weak against burst, so it makes sense that it be weak early in the fight. It should be strong later on in the fight, though.

Mika ATM HellDec 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

What if the CD charged faster the more procs you've made consecutively? First proc happens after 4 seconds, the next one at 3, and the next at 2. Somewhat like hecarim Q. In combat sustain is weak against burst, so it makes sense that it be weak early in the fight. It should be strong later on in the fight, though.

i like the idea of grasp as a ramping threat , rito should definely go that way shoudl grasp receive changes that aren't just % numbers

Something like first proc being X% second being X+1% -1 sec on next proc etc

MunchCrunchLunchDec 7, 20162 votes

it doesn't scale like other keystones.

Meep ManDec 7, 20161 votes

Yes it does. It scales with your maximum health. Same for CotC.

PermabannedGarenDec 7, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Toast Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8PdldReF,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2016-12-07T19:08:59.697+0000)

Yes it does. It scales with your maximum health. Same for CotC.

Let me rephrase for him.

It doesn't scale as well as other keystones.

There is not a single other keystone that scales as poorly as Grasp does. Not even TLD.

JDB8eoX8x0Dec 7, 20161 votes

Grasp has always been useless on me, considering that I main Jungle and Support. The effect it has encourages active fighting which is a lane thing, but melee Supports can't count on the poor bonus damage and healing it provides (and ranged supports deal half damage which is an absolute joke.)

Gregor GysiDec 7, 20163 votes

Well, it is kind of made for toplane laningphase.. I mean, toplaners don't usually take Bond of Ston either..

Swiftstrike4Dec 7, 20161 votes

It went from being underused, to being over used, to nerfed to be sort of useless.

I still use it on Nasus because it syncs pretty well with him and his existing lifesteal, but storm is better on him. I just don't like storm because I give up swiftness (the mastery before grasp) for it.

TheorcheroDec 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It went from being underused, to being over used, to nerfed to be sort of useless.

I still use it on because it syncs pretty well with him and his existing lifesteal, but storm is better on him. I just don't like storm because I give up swiftness (the mastery before grasp) for it.

You don't like the slow resistance.. so you give up slow resistance.. for slow resistance and ms?

Swiftstrike4Dec 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You don't like the slow resistance.. so you give up slow resistance.. for slow resistance and ms?

You give up 15% tenacity which is different than a simple slow resist. Tenacity is huge on Nasus, reduces the duration of silences, stuns, roots, blinds, slows, snares etc. Tenacity doesn't cover suppression, stasis, or displacements. So no, they are not synonymous and there is a very noticeable difference without swiftness on Nasus, since I almost always build item 3111 but at least with swiftness I can opt for another boot instead.