Marksmen are just too reliable

Big Lincoln··86 votes·3,130 views

This is, in my opinion, what separates marksmen from all other carry-type champions; their reliability. Not the fact that supports+support items are OP because they'd be just as busted for a good melee carry, not that they can siege, just because they are more reliable than their competitors. Unlike more modern designs, even newer or reworked marksmen still have a majority of their damage in rightclicking, with no need for setting up or having a condition they need to meet, etc. For most marksmen their 'unreliability' is in their items, namely crit and the % chance that'll give them strong damage output. But even this isn't really unreliable; it's not a matter of 'if' an ADC will get items, because they're put in a safe lane with a support to protect them while they farm. Keep in mind that this reliability issue isn't just marksman; old-style melee carries are very guilty of this, too, but Riot and the community have recognized them as having design flaws for the direction League is heading in.

Compare them to many newer/reworked melee carries for instance--

Darius as a DPS threat is backloaded on his stacking passive Illaoi requires either enough time (at least half a minute) to set up tentacles or to catch one person and their spirit minimum in her ult. is also extremely telegraphed in all her attacks Fiora has a pseudo RNG passive that dictates how much damage she'll do to you Yasuo needs to be able to consistently land his Q to max his output, his mobility is tied to enemies so he has to be careful about where he fights and when he dashes Gangplank has barrels, which can be taken out by ranged opponents (low counterplay for melees, admittedly, particularly after level 7 when the barrel timer shortens)

All of these champions have a condition or need to build up to become a major threat, in addition to having things crucial to their kit that can be stopped or avoided. ADCs, for the most part, do not have this problem. They require little-to-no ramp-up (or they are much easier to ramp up due to their range, like Ashe), don't usually have delayed attacks, and are constantly a threat for as long as they're alive. For the most part, this makes their design very stagnant, too; once you learn one, your experience isn't gonna differ across most of the marksman roster. This also plays against marksman because much of their strength is not in their kit, but their items. Because of this ADCs constantly push each other out of viability and you end up only seeing a small handful of them being good at any given time, because they use the strongest items better than the rest.

The exception to this is Jhin, who's more bursty than DPS with his right clicks but still has a condition in the form of his reloading. Jhin ramps up to his fourth shot at the start of a fight, hits you very hard at the end of his rotation, and then he has down-time where he can't fight back if you decide to extend the fight. In addition, all but one of his spells are skillshots; two can be body blocked, two are delayed and one tells you the area he can hit you in. In addition, he has more build options than other marksmen, since he can swap between lethality and crit builds on a game-by-game basis. This is good design; ADCs should have more of these traits. Ramping up in a fight, having a window of meaningful downtime, and being more avoidable would make them better.

Some ADCs have "unreliable" burst. But it's not really unreliable, as much as delayed. Their DPS is still strong, or top tier ahem twitch, but they're rewarded for pure rightclicking by gaining a sudden burst of damage. Twitch, Kalista, Xayah and Tristana all have this. But, aside from Xayah, there's not really much you can do about this delayed burst because it's attached to auto attacks, except the usual "counterplay" marksmen usually have: kill them before they kill you. I don't think this is healthy gameplay for any party involved.

My takeaway is this. ADCs should be brought up to par with the direction that melee carries have been heading in. This means

  • DPS or burst that requires a setup or has a downtime
  • Interactions more complex than right clicking and enhancing their rightclicking with button-press steroids
  • Spells that can be blocked or dodged; telegraphs, too
  • If they are meant to have reliable and strong late games, they should have much more punishing early games to compensate (make them unreliable in getting to their most powerful)
  • Stronger strength profiles that better separate them from each other. Objective control, pushing power, burst, DPS, range, utility, damage type -- all of these can be done better than they are currently to give ADCs proper distinctions.
  • Less pressure on building crit; it's fine for some marksmen but not all should be made to build the same

And with these added features, we can make marksman more self-sufficient once they're given more room to outplay and be outplayed, even if some should still remain team reliant for protection. There would also be much more wiggle room to actually clarify between what stage of the game a particular marksman should shine at; currently, with crit builds as the most powerful for all marksman except maybe Kog'maw and Ezreal, even lane bully marksman are very powerful at a point in the game that they're supposed to fall off.

This isn't to say that every marksman needs to embody all of these traits simultaneously, or that they should; some reliability is necessary, and I think it's core to certain champions, but they should pay for that reliability somewhere else in their kit.

let me know what you think

92 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo27 votes

so what you mean is AUTO ATTACKING is to reliable ?

Big Lincoln22 votes

sorta

the difference is that a good chunk of marksman do nothing but auto attack, or their abilities are just steroids/maybe a CC or a dash.

there's nothing wrong with auto attack champs but i think league could make them a lot more interesting

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

but with the player base all crying for different shit to happen in game riot cant focus on one issue and get that one issue right... they are trying to adjust everything at once and it ends up as a clusterfuk

im not arguing against you... im just saying when riot is having to run around and put out 1000 wildfires while the X number of players start other ones else where as soon as riot focuses on one

PB4UAME9 votes

ADCs have been historically the most gamewarping class, and one that RIOT has balanced around for what, the last 7 years since Ashe fucked up melee's design and then made them balance around Ashe with flash as what bruisers had to fight, making flash mandatory. . . and well, so on.

They need to address the cancer infecting the rest of their game's ecosystem before the rest of their balancing endeavors have any hope of success.

LordGeovanni3 votes

RANGED Auto attacking is too reliable.

LankPants20 votes

They're also currently insanely overpowered. It's not just reliability/unreliability, they're also numberswise bonkers. Riot buffed so many ADC items in the mid season, probably because of that dumbarse "ADC in 2017" meme while nerfing armour into the ground. Then they reworked support items aimed at protecting and buffing ADCs and made them busted. Is it really a surprise that the class is overpowered right now?

Spoofghoul16 votes

100% agreed

I would like to add that i think the Reliability of ADC in combination with them also being the strongest late game class is probably the main reason for the majority of balance issues in the game.

I find it unhealthy when entire classes are tied to a certain game stage where they can dominate.

Like every other class they should have stronger late game champions and stronger early game champions

It's ok if some of them are not the pinnacle of raw power come late game they can have other strengths like added utility or bonus damage vs objectives to make up for what they lack in raw power come late game so they are still useful.

The problem with giving a Class total dominion over a certain stage of the game is that these game stages will eventually happen, though you can end before the late game comes around this isn't guaranteed.

The main problem here is that when you get to late game is that often the adc has 75% of the team power budget being so dominant makes them by far the most important asset and if your adc is better then theirs it puts all agency over the outcome of the game in the hands of 1 out of 10 players

One of the other issues is that in order to compensate this they have to be weak early game, but they cannot be too weak or they will never reach late game Another issue is snowballing because if one gets ahead and continues to roll the game is pretty much done. For other players it sucks to have their hands tied behind their backs when it comes to having influence over the game's outcome

This is supposed to be a team game not special snowflake and the 4 slaves

All roles should have a big influence on the game's outcome not just the ADC

It would be better if ADC where brought in line with the other roles Like Big Lincoln said, he makes some good suggestions

Teridax6813 votes

I agree with this. Having powerful autoattacks is fine, but the issue with marksmen as a class right now, imo, is that they are so heavily defined by their autoattacks that it causes them to blend into each other, while simultaneously making them too reliable for their own good, as well as not interactive enough. I also think defining marksmen as a "carry" class doesn't actually work to their advantage either, because putting every member of a class on the same power curve simply ends up homogenizing them even further.

While I think marksmen will always have the best autoattacking power around, which will give them reliable baseline damage output, I think there's plenty of room for unreliability elsewhere. Giving marksmen abilities that are exceptionally interactive, but also making them a central part to applying their autoattacks to full effect, would make marksmen feel a lot more fair and less stat-checky to fight against, and would also allow them to express themselves in a much more diverse manner. I think a critical mistake in designing marksmen so far has been to give them abilities similar to mages or assassins, e.g. quick skillshot nukes and the like, in addition to perfectly reliable on-demand steroids, when really they run along completely different lines of design.

At the same time, though, I do also feel marksmen have been special-cased, but in all the wrong ways: in an environment where key points of design are interactivity, timed windows of strength and weakness, minimum amounts of unreliability in kits, etc., marksmen not only ignore most of these points, but have somewhat worsened by having their always-on, mana-agnostic, undodgeable DPS morph into burst-per-second, or simply strong burst in addition to top-tier DPS, as has been the case recently with Draven, Lucian and Xayah. Currently, the main (and only) counterplay to these champions is to lock them down with hard CC, and/or kill them with major burst before they can recover through life steal, and that's not fun for marksman players either. Effectively, interaction around marksmen has become so binary that any fight involving a marksman ends up feeling terrible for one side or the other, and usually more focused around being out-statted than outplayed. For the sake of both marksmen and those going up against them, the class needs to be designed around significantly more unreliability.

Yaskamasandwich8 votes

What also should be done is removing class power spikes, but that will probably not happen since Riot is going that route intentionally. Marksmen's biggest problem have been the same power spikes. Either one is good early game and great late game, good mod game and great late game, or hyper carry late game. Every other class got shifted around this flawed design.

Before assassins had different power spikes depending on champions. Akali was late game due to her stickiness and burst. Rengar was late game due to his head hunt. Kha'zix late game due to evolution. Zed was an okay safe pick due to his passives, and delayed burst didn't put him over the edge. Now all assassins are early game because they're assassins.

Tanky characters suffered this more so. Vanguards like Sejuani, Maokai, 50 Minute Sion, Amumu, Malphite, Rammus, Gragas were all actual late game champions. Now they're pigeoned holed into mid game. Bruiser suffered this the most. The late game god of gods Nasus is a shell of his former self and forced into mid game. Jax too is shoveled into mid game, whom had the late game whole not as powerful but hits it sooner than Nasus.

All this while Marksmen and now Slayers have been constantly getting buffs to dominate late game. Damage focused classes rule the late game now. The classes would be way more interesting, balanced, and strategic if they had power spikes depending on champions. Like say Nasus covered late game while Lucian covered early game LIKE LUCIAN WAS INTEDED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE. Or Riven whom was supposed to be early game covers that area while the Jinx covers late game area. It should also would help avoiding the "pick op Marksmen meta or bust" since all Marksmen are different by kit and power spikes. Also should stop Marksmen warping the game with their late game overlords.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

Unless Riot pulls back on the many snowball mechanics they've added then you can't nerf the early game of those ADC's because late game influence doesn't exist right now.

I'm not saying you aren't right by the way, I'm saying that the issue goes deeper than just ADC's being too strong, there's a reason they're too strong which is that Riot has been working to shorten games for several seasons now, making it so where there used to be champions good early/mid/late, the effectiveness of a champion is now too consistent at all points of the game, good or bad.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Funny, i can't remember GP getting buffs? Why should marksmen be allowed to exist early game ? Why CANT we nerf adcs early game but GP is still shit early game and has to scale like he always does? Why has one champ to suffer from that meta and adcs get a free out of jail card by buffs to their itemization?

LordOfTheLeague2 votes

You compare one champion to an entire class.

yoshi27905 votes

If they are meant to have reliable and strong late games, they should have much more punishing early games to compensate (make them unreliable in getting to their most powerful)

So you want 4 man ganks botlane parties 24/7 to return?

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

return?when did they leave?

The Deckowner4 votes

There is a reason why people say Jhin is the best designed marksman in the game, his reload mechanic has clear windows of strength and weakness unlike other adc that stack attackspeed.

Anhartamin3 votes

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LightIsMyPath6 votes

So, nerfs all traditional supports so zyra vs brand botlane every game? I'm not a fan of ADC state atm but you shouldn't punish support player properly doing his job to rebalance the class (I think changes to other classes for the sake of balancing ADCs has been done more than enough, don't you think? Maybe it's time to direct changes at the class itself instead of nerfing mages late game then gutting half of the assassin roster then nerfing tank itemization into oblivion)

Anhartamin1 votes

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LightIsMyPath1 votes

Exhaust is a summoner spell and is not run only by supports. If you want to talk about spells balance flash is waaay more broken. Lulu has to high damage for a peeling support but this is because she was balanced to be a midlaner until Q change. Janna is not interactive because her kit specialty is disengaging. Also the same thing can be said about many champions (? Really not sure what you mean). Finally you complain about the skillcap of support role but you don't have a single game as support... Go play 37 games as support and reach 70% winrate it should be ez pz if it's not hard and everyone can do that. Besides the fact that ADC has access to more defensive tools is actively lowering the support skillcap (takes less effort to keep him alive) so even another reason to hit ADC with changes. Also you are very biased as an assassin main towards champions specifically designed to counter yours.. Hey I main Lux Zed is bullshit can press r-q-E and right click and and I 'm dead and he buys mr boots and hexdrinker so he can even fuck up and doesn't die uh uh so balanced so hard! I can do it too :p

Tobias Brackner3 votes

They aren't reliable. Across the board Marksmen have terrible self-peel and escape moves.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Hardly if they're remotely skilled. Ashe Caitlyn Corki Draven Ezreal Graves Kalista Kindred Lucian MissFortune Quinn Sivir Tristana Vayne Xayah

Tobias Brackner2 votes

Corki Ezreal Tristana Vayne

The rest have garbage self-peel and rely mostly on extremely strong initial positioning to keep people off of them. That or a convenient wall.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Ashe the original queen of kiting, caitlyn will be untouchable to anyone without a gap closer if she's smart. The majority have crowd control and a movement speed boost that will make an escape when used in tandem. Kalista kindred and xayah can run circles around people shredding them as long as they have good timing.

Tobias Brackner3 votes

Why are you assuming the enemy team did not bring any form of gap close to deal with the Marksmen?

If a Marksman plays against a team that has 0 gap closing then of course they are going to dominate. That's one team losing at champ select, not the power of Marksmen.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Sudden gap closers are obviously oppressive regardless of who's the victim. But not everyone has that; for example fiora is going to have a much easier time taking down a slippery marksman than udyr will, likewise ekko will outperform diana.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

Exactly, so when dealing with a Marksman, make sure you have someone with the tools to jump on them and stick to them.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

You're missing the point. Have you forgotten how ineffective assassins have become?

Tobias Brackner2 votes

They are perfectly effective.

Lawd Dawg2 votes

my boy Varus can't escape item 3073

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

where the fuck is kog'maw?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

People play him for more than artillery? Jesting aside, his only movement bonus is when he's dead, and his crowd control is rather luck luster in compairison. It's an aoe slow sure, but draven's axes disrupt enemy movement, grave's denies vision.

Mandang03 votes

Right clicks have been reliable for seasons and ADCs haven't been overbearing until maybe just recently, so I doubt there's anything to the 'no skillshots = OP' argument that sometimes gets made.

As far as design, I wish MORE champs roghtclicked for their damage. People always take support's influence (and currently knight's vow) for granted when claiming ADC is solely responsible for their success. IMO it's a hell of a lot more interesting to have a role worth focusing or supporting in teamfights rather than making everyone do burst damage of varying cooldowns - it's a little more chess, a little less checkers. I also don't really buy into the health of the whole 'setup' gameplay pattern, and I think the count-to-three (or four) passives got old seasons ago. That's just me though.

Big Lincoln4 votes

I think you're misjudging my intentions. I'm fine with champions who are primarily right-clicks for damage. Some reliability is important, and I think any carry that's well-protected should be allowed to wreck shop. That's what makes them carries.

But, as someone who plays a lot of 'carry' champions that are dictated by downtimes or having to build up first, I find it.. i don't know, annoying that these champions are just always 'on.' In a game that's moved to a direction where champion picks and counterpicks are less important than your ability to outplay with them, it feels like a lot of marksmen and some other champions are playing a completely different game with on-demand steroids. It irks me that the end of their interaction is 'I hit you and deal damage,' especially after Riot's gone through all the effort to add delays and conditions and telegraphs and skillshots to most of the rest of the roster.

So I guess I'm saying it from the perspective of wanting some consistency in the game's design. If that makes sense.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Ashe does have a down time though, she is waaaaay weaker in terms of DPS compared to everyone else, without her Q.

And the slightest disruption can either prevent her from activating it or getting anything from it.

Not to mention is one of the few marksmen that really does need like 3 items to deal any damage, until that point she is just played for her ulti.

Pathfinder Yasuo3 votes

Okay here's the thing. Their damage may be reliable due to it being from auto attacks, but in higher ELOs they have to be PERFECT on positioning or they get fucked, unless your team gets a good engage and the other team cant fight back.

Dryden8141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pathfinder Yasuo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NdcnFZn,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2017-06-23T19:43:47.861+0000)

Okay here's the thing. Their damage may be reliable due to it being from auto attacks, but in higher ELOs they have to be PERFECT on positioning or they get fucked, unless your team gets a good engage and the other team cant fight back.

Draven with item 3046 item 3812 item 3047 (And his support from a mile away with the item 3107 and when they finnaly get to him that bullshit item 3109 ) you think you caught him out? LOL He caught you out,this motherfucker is a tank with sustained burst damage ready to fucking 1v5.

Pathfinder Yasuo4 votes

Draven is overpowered as fuck right now along with Caitlyn and Twitch, not the marksman class

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

No, it's a problem with all marksmen, since any marksman can build those three items and do the same thing

Pathfinder Yasuo3 votes

Then that's items, not the class.

Bwuceleeroy3 votes

Darius as a DPS threat is backloaded on his stacking passive Twitch Varus Vayne Tristana Xayah Ashe Kalista Illaoi requires either enough time (at least half a minute) to set up tentacles or to catch one person and their spirit minimum in her ult. is also extremely telegraphed in all her attacks Caitlyn Corki Jhin Fiora has a pseudo RNG passive that dictates how much damage she'll do to you lol gtfo of here Yasuo needs to be able to consistently land his Q to max his output, his mobility is tied to enemies so he has to be careful about where he fights and when he dashes Lucian Ezreal Graves + Every adc in the game, except they dont get a free shield, windwall, and 1sec cd dashes with double crit and 50% arm pen Gangplank has barrels, which can be taken out by ranged opponents (low counterplay for melees, admittedly, particularly after level 7 when the barrel timer shortens) you find me one adc that can do as much damage with one ability that also has a get out of jail free card with heal, and a ranged ability to back it up along with a large aoe global ult

oh and lets also not forget that all of these champs can easily kill any adc while building mostly hp and armor

AirKingNeo2 votes

If they are meant to have reliable and strong late games, they should have much more punishing early games to compensate (make them unreliable in getting to their most powerful)

Stronger strength profiles that better separate them from each other. Objective control, pushing power, burst, DPS, range, utility, damage type -- all of these can be done better than they are currently to give ADCs proper distinctions.

Less pressure on building crit; it's fine for some marksmen but not all should be made to build the same

I agree with these the most. Of course, you can't make all marksmen unreliable. Their nature is basic attacks; just doesn't work. However, we can make sure they don't reliably have a strong late game. If you build early game, why the fuck do you still get to be good as me in the late game? That's bullshit. And only one item causes this item 3031

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

Of course, you can't make all marksmen unreliable. Their nature is basic attacks; just doesn't work

Yes you can- introduce "hit" as a stat that only Marksmen need. By default, marksmen would have a 35% chance to do no damage any time they autoattack a champion, and would have to build items that have a new stat called "Hit Rating" (and no other stats) to reach 100%. This serves the purpose of delaying their powerspike and making their lategame damage less oppressive.

Big Lincoln1 votes

...

Are you asking for dodge chance to come back, but in reverse?

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

Yes, actually. The way dodge used to work made it so that you built it and got more RNG, but Hit rating would cause you to start the game with RNG that you eliminate with items.

AirKingNeo1 votes

That sounds retarded and very unfun, unironically.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

It's about as retarded and unfun as being crit for 2/3 of your health, yet Critical Strike has not gotten the deletion it deserves

Great Ozymandius2 votes

I'd like it if at least two or more additional adc's got auto-attacks functioning like graves' -- they get blocked by minions.

For example, increase Cait's range further, but now minions and champions block her auto attacks.

Now cait actually has better defined strengths and weaknesses. You can play around her range by using minions in lane. And tanks can protect carries from auto-attacks.

Another interesting idea -- make an adc who's auto attacks do small aoe damage but are not targeted.

sobi9992 votes

As a support i see Adc's very vulnerable to just about every other class early game. If that wasn't bad enough, they are always squishy since they build a glass-canon build. If adc's do get ahead, they snowball really hard but they still die as easy as they would have if they had not been fed. The difference is that if the support is next to them and the adc is fed then those 2 can pretty much solo the entire team (given they are really fed). Compare this to someone like fiora or yasuo late game. All in all, i do agree that adc's are very reliant on AA and cane be made more fun but i disagree that adc's have no counterplay just because they are ranged and do alot of damage with just AA. I for once am fed up with assassins killing my adc under my nose.

MysteriousBootie2 votes

The counterplay to ADCs is the fact that they pop instantly when you sneeze in their direction lol

They literally need a team to babysit them to fight, with the exception of somethin like a vayne or w/e that at least can actually duel, but even then she has like 0 hp or resistances vs assassins and mages

Acheron162 votes

What part of SUSTAINED DPS did you miss?

I agree that crit should be reworked into something less polarizing damage (less sudden burst, more consistent damage), but ADC damage being reliable is intended.

It's like saying that Mages have burst damage or that tanks can tank.

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