here is a compromise for overgrowth

Critmaster Garen·Nov 2, 2018·19 votes·10,008 views

instead of giving the 2.5% max health bonus when youre absorbing 120 minions and monsters, give a stacking % health bonus for every 120 minions/monsters to at least keep its current lategame scaling.

i still dont understand why this rune out of all of them is nerfed.

its like season 9 is meant to force almost everyone who picks resolve into the same demolish/second wind/unflinching build, unless youre one of the handful of chosen champions who can actually use shield bash.

27 Comments

True GarenNov 7, 20185 votes

Why aren't you more upset about Celerity?

Critmaster GarenNov 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-07T12:07:16.517+0000)

Why aren't you more upset about Celerity?

riot has been fucking with celerity the entire season. it has been trash since its most recent nerf. im burnt out about being anoyed with that crap.

honestly, they should just make 3% movement speed one of the stat shards. this is pretty much all the people who took the rune (except for hecarim) ever wanted, and put a new non movement related rune into its spot in sorcery.

True GarenNov 7, 20185 votes

No, Celerity is still good. It was good when it was only %4.8, it's good now at %6. But what they have planned for Celerity will hurt.

Unflinching was always a good choice, opposed to Overgrowth. Possibly the better one, since it gives early game benefits. The problem they've been having with Celerity, is the same one that they are still having with new Celerity - they don't want to buff early game MS at all. And without MS OR stats coming from MS, there's no rune.

Critmaster GarenNov 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-11-07T12:48:16.135+0000)

No, Celerity is still good. It was good when it was only %4.8, it's good now at %6. But what they have planned for Celerity will hurt.

Unflinching was always a good choice, opposed to Overgrowth. Possibly the better one, since it gives early game benefits. The problem they've been having with Celerity, is the same one that they are still having with new Celerity - they don't want to buff early game MS at all. And without MS OR stats coming from MS, there's no rune.

yes, unflinching was always a better rune.

thats why they should buff overgrowth and not nerf it, to give us some choices. because this is a clear nerf unless youre not building any health at all.

and as far as celerity goes, it died for me when they nerfed the ms bonus to 1.5%. the main reason i used to take it was not for the ad bonus, but as a replacement for the old movement speed quints which gave you an additional 4.5% movement speed.

True GarenNov 7, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-11-07T13:38:20.749+0000)

yes, unflinching was always a better rune.

thats why they should buff overgrowth and not nerf it, to give us some choices. because this is a clear nerf unless youre not building any health at all.

and as far as celerity goes, it died for me when they nerfed the ms bonus to 1.5%. the main reason i used to take it was not for the ad bonus, but as a replacement for the old movement speed quints which gave you an additional 4.5% movement speed.

For Garen, the upfront extra AD was decisive. A significant amount of extra damage on Q level 1. Most of the regular Garen items give some MS, so the rune gave a consistent buff until about the part of the game when Gathering Storm becomes relevant. Other champions with similar mechanics in their kit benefited, too (i.e. Shyvana). I don't think that it's a coincidence that Garen was the strongest that he's been in recent memory, when the rune was giving %10. (Boots start was a thing, for a little while there...)

If the rune gave significant bonus MS, that would also be good. But as it stands now, it's a small bonus that will really be half as effective because of soft caps anyway. %8 of even 100 more MS is... 8. Which is about what it will add to Garen Q lvl 1. (Well, less because, soft caps.) I don't think it will be giving more than 15 MS, in or out of combat.

True GarenNov 14, 20184 votes

i still dont understand why this rune out of all of them is nerfed.

This isn't the only rune being nerfed. They are removing Chrysalis (early game health) completely. And removing a lot of health from the game in general, with the way that the stats are being changed. They already took out a lot of health when they changed the up-front health path bonuses to scaling bonuses. (Besides removing Celestial.) Early game health is now bad (even though it was fine for years). And even late game health is apparently, overpowered. (Who knew?) Health was nerfed in a lot of other little ways this season, including reducing health on the Relic line. They even removed Warmogs from ARAM temporarily. This is beside the trend of increasing True Damage in the game.

I still think that my idea of just giving 100 bonus health at 10m, and a permanent %5 increase (a la Conditioning) would be more attractive - more equitable and less abusable. I don't know why health stacking should be attached to visible unit deaths.

Tahminatrix Nov 2, 20183 votes

Wait, why are they nerfing a late game rune, best case scenario is it will negate the damage from an auto attack or 2, for a tank that isn't much so Idk how anyone could perceive that to be op.

Critmaster GarenNov 2, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-02T16:59:40.430+0000)

Wait, why are they nerfing a late game rune, best case scenario is it will negate the damage from an auto attack or 2, for a tank that isn't much so Idk how anyone could perceive that to be op.

because theyre obviously accomodating adc and every squishy champion who doesnt build health. the champions that dont build health at all get more out of the flat increase.

its the same back when the veteran scars nerf happened a couple of seasons ago. theyre trying to make the rune more attractive to champions who dont currently consider picking it up, and fuck over every champion whod already pick it, in the process.

for everyone who actually builds like one or more health items, its a massive nerf. you easily lose out on 200 to 300 health at later stages in the game for the rune giving a few more health points at 10 minutess.

Tahminatrix Nov 2, 20181 votes

That's kind of stupid, we already have dragons screwing over tanks (tanks don't benefit at all from infernal since it only gives ad and ap based on how much you have -.-, there is no dragon that only tanks will benefit from that another class of champ wont at all)

Tldr ; tanks cant use infernal dragons and don't have a counterpart of their own that only they benefit from , nobody bats an eye, tanks benefit the most from a rune, everyone starts to cry.

True GarenNov 7, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-02T17:09:29.813+0000)

That's kind of stupid, we already have dragons screwing over tanks (tanks don't benefit at all from infernal since it only gives ad and ap based on how much you have -.-, there is no dragon that only tanks will benefit from that another class of champ wont at all)

Tldr ; tanks cant use infernal dragons and don't have a counterpart of their own that only they benefit from , nobody bats an eye, tanks benefit the most from a rune, everyone starts to cry.

That's not entirely true, since Infernal buff increases AD, not "bonus AD". Most tanks have some AD/AP scaling besides. If your team gets Baron, the Infernal buff will scale that, too. Tanks possibly benefit LESS than other classes, but they still benefit. (You may as well argue that Mountain buff also neglects tanks, since it's a damage conversion.) On the other hand, you could make the argument that Ocean buff benefits tanks more, since they have more health to heal, and it's %-based,

The Dragons, Baron Buffs, Gathering Storm are all aimed at the idea of ending a game more quickly when it's gone past 40m. Riot really hates long games for some reason. So they want to have mechanisms for increasing damage, without increasing tankiness. Extra damage, means you can knock down a tower that much faster.

Tahminatrix Nov 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-07T16:27:25.598+0000)

That's not entirely true, since Infernal buff increases AD, not "bonus AD". Most tanks have some AD/AP scaling besides. If your team gets Baron, the Infernal buff will scale that, too. Tanks possibly benefit LESS than other classes, but they still benefit. (You may as well argue that Mountain buff also neglects tanks, since it's a damage conversion.) On the other hand, you could make the argument that Ocean buff benefits tanks more, since they have more health to heal, and it's %-based,

Mountain drakes are perfectly usable on tanks since it takes into account base ad, base damage on abilities and things like demolish.

Everyone can benefit from ocean drakes, its just depending on the enemy team comp, its very rarely role specific and usually playstyle specific. (Do you want to risk some health to poke them back? Do you wanna keep taking poke and dancing until they are low on mana or use something important or are you just trying to stall the game?, etc)

The usability gap between tanks and every other role when it comes to infernal drake is incredibly large compared to anything else.

AlzonNov 2, 20181 votes

Solid idea tbh. In the old rune system, my scaling tank page used HP/lv seals and %HP quints, for 212 (I think) and 4.5% HP. This new Overgrowth gives a bit more flat but much less %. These 120-CS thresholds will be something more noticeable than the old runes and both the current & PBE Overgrowth, and the rune retains a strong scaling.

Lil Homie bustaNov 2, 20181 votes

I don't feel like they want to nerf it, rather make it available for non health stackers, which is good since bone plating users will want a substitute and opens the Resolve tree for more champs. The problem is that the numbers are quite low right now. Let's hope that they will adjust it like other things in the next week.

Krys StarNov 3, 20181 votes

Because Riot wants to support a game where you get bursted and one-shotted. Have you not noticed the patterrns? Chrysalis, Bone Plating, Overgrowth, all of it is getting nerfed and yet out of all the other problematic runes (Electrocute etc) only Dark Harvesting is getting looked at, which requires kills to even scale to begin with whereas Electrocute just keeps on scaling just 'cause, making bursty champions insanely burstier.

I lit your babyNov 3, 20181 votes

Learn to read, before making a topic, jesus.

It's not nerfed, you're continuinig to stack it after 120 creeps.

Critmaster GarenNov 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Forced Abortion,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-03T07:27:12.613+0000)

Learn to read, before making a topic, jesus.

It's not nerfed, you're continuinig to stack it after 120 creeps.

learn to math before you comment.

its still a massive nerf for champions that build health.

at 300 stacks, 3000 health

the current rune gives you an additional 7.5% maximum health, which amounts to 225 bonus health

the new version gives you 112 + 78 (the 2.5%) = 190 bonus health

considering that a lot of champions who would currently take the rune stack to much higher values of around 4000 to 4500 health, it gets increasingly worse. and that value gets even worse the longer the game is running.

all im asking for is to put more % health back into the rune, so it at least evens out at 300 stacks 4000 health.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-11-03T08:40:18.311+0000)

learn to math before you comment.

its still a massive nerf for champions that build health.

at 300 stacks, 3000 health

the current rune gives you an additional 7.5% maximum health, which amounts to 225 bonus health

the new version gives you 112 + 78 (the 2.5%) = 190 bonus health

considering that a lot of champions who would currently take the rune stack to much higher values of around 4000 to 4500 health, it gets increasingly worse. and that value gets even worse the longer the game is running.

And here’s what’s funny: it’s also worse on squishies. The new rune is only better up until you have 1500 max health, at which point the current one is better.

The important question here being, what champion doesn’t get 1500 max health?

Of course, it is drastically worse on tanks, and quite worse on squishies. So thet begs the question, who is this good on?

I lit your babyNov 3, 20181 votes

My bad then, sorry.

But it's not even close to be a "massive" nerf. Another rune tuning just to 'change'.

Critmaster GarenNov 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Forced Abortion,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2018-11-03T12:01:17.368+0000)

My bad then, sorry.

But it's not even close to be a "massive" nerf. Another rune tuning just to 'change'.

its a pretty significant loss for average game values. its really bad if youre playing a champion who wants to stack a lot of health, and lost like 50% value from the rune.

I lit your babyNov 4, 20181 votes

But it's not even close to be 50%.

Tanks are overbroken, if there is no conq user and loss of hp wont change anything(about 100 actually). Especially, when there are new defensive options, which, i beleve, also will be tuned in positive way.

Critmaster GarenNov 4, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Forced Abortion,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=00040000000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-04T12:04:13.691+0000)

But it's not even close to be 50%.

Tanks are overbroken, if there is no conq user and loss of hp wont change anything(about 100 actually). Especially, when there are new defensive options, which, i beleve, also will be tuned in positive way.

its going to be a pretty large cut.

on top of that, theyre also removing flat health from rune pathes from up to 300 at lvl 18 by going inspiration/resolve down to 90.

even for most champions who just opt into resolve with another tree, its a huge loss of scaling health.

combine all this shit together, and you lose almost a item 1011 worth of health.

Jayce ADCNov 7, 20181 votes

i still dont understand why this rune out of all of them is nerfed.

One word, Sion. Sion used it and was getting 600-800 bonus health from it from 30+ minutes in.

Critmaster GarenNov 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jayce ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-11-07T13:59:43.730+0000)

One word, Sion. Sion used it and was getting 600-800 bonus health from it from 30+ minutes in.

if it was just sion, they could reduce sions health stacks on his w by 1.

im pretty sure they just care about making the rune more attractive for squishier champions while theyre completely disregarding anyone else.

Jayce ADCNov 7, 20181 votes

You really think Riot will nerf something for what actually needs nerfing? Ahahaha, theyll make it a 5 step process of complications.

True GarenNov 7, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jayce ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8NVq1ZrM,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-11-07T13:59:43.730+0000)

One word, Sion. Sion used it and was getting 600-800 bonus health from it from 30+ minutes in.

I think, that their thinking is, that it will stack faster, to give a bit more health earlier, and that more champions will find this more attractive. As it stands though, I don't think that it's enough to make the rune attractive to anybody - but it will be less attractive to the health builders who take it now.

Runes have a gold value - and a T4 rune having a value of 1200 at 30m probably made some people uncomfortable. Conditioning, by comparison, winds up being worth a little more than 600 most of the time. Gathering Storm - 490g at 20m, 1015g at 30m. These gold values aren't always accurate though - %30 tenacity has a gold value of 110, but it's obviously worth a lot more than that, even if it only stacks multiplicatively... because Tenacity is broken.

Changing the rune to a flat bonus, rather than a % bonus is probably better, but then, let that bonus work out to something like 450 or 600 in the long game. 300 health at 20m is probably reasonable. Something close to 1hp/unit and no % bonus. Maybe with a cap.

Or just let it stack over time, like Gathering Storm does. Then it would literally be "Strength of Ages". But then the rune would give ~185 health at 20m, ~380 at 30m. Would you want it? ... ~630 at 40m ... this is starting to sound like a problem again, and I'm not sure why... (Maybe because nobody is stacking flat AD, but a couple are stacking HP.)

All right - let's have it work like Conditioning then - at 10m get 100 bonus health and gain +%5 maximum health. This is the same scaling as Conditioning and you'll have 250 bonus hp, by the time that you build 3000 hp. This actually sounds pretty balanced to me...