Why does every Spectre's Cowl Upgrade have CDR?

iPooUnicorns·May 6, 2017·10 votes·3,337 views

Only has CDR in its build path, the other two & , receive their CDR upon completion.

While each of these items individually having 10% CDR isn't really problematic, all three of them having it is. They are all essentially the same item with different passives. Personally I think should have its CDR removed, and give it 65 MR while reducing 's MR to 55. This would solidify the new items' roles, with being defense oriented and being offense oriented.

30 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirMay 7, 201711 votes

I released them all with 10% CDR to match Spirit Visage, because I didn't want "has CDR" to be a primary consideration for which tank MR item you wanted. Moving forward, once the items have settled into the game well and players have come to value their effects, I think taking CDR off one or two and diversifying their stat lines a bit could make sense. However, on release, I wanted people to be choosing mainly for their unique effects.

LankPantsMay 7, 20176 votes

I can tell you as a tank player I'm just going to go for which ever has CDR because it's more powerful than any of their passives.

I really don't give a fuck about the passives, most of the time it feels like I'm building the least bad, although the fact that Sej's W is randomly physical damage now probably has a lot to do with that. The only exception to this is sometimes Adaptive Helm. I've actually started to question if I should just buy a SV for the extra stats when Helm isn't good TBH, Abyssal just feels meh. If you removed CDR from other items that wouldn't be a question anymore, SV would always be better, I think even in cases where Adaptive Helm should clearly be better.

RiotRiotRepertoirMay 7, 20179 votes

That's kinda what I'm saying. CDR is so powerful that if only 1 had it, it would be the default go to 90+% of the time most likely.

Hexs FortuneMay 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's kinda what I'm saying. CDR is so powerful that if only 1 had it, it would be the default go to 90+% of the time most likely.

CDR would be nice on more armor items. The mana on frozen heart never feels worth the cost

WinTheWarOnPantsMay 7, 20172 votes

Then i good follow up question would be why do AD's have so much access to it? Ad's already have autos for sustain dmg, but giving them near unlimited options for capping CDR has always seemed ridiculous to me. I calculated it up once, but AD items have something like 100%+ more CDR in itemization than AP. Whenever i play AD i never worry about CDR, because no matter what my build is i will always cap out. If i'm playing AP or tank on the other hand it;s a different story unless i play a item 3165 champ(which i don't very often).

DrCyanideMay 7, 20172 votes

What, you mean you don't buy item 3102 item 3152 item 3100 item 3157 as an AP champion just to hit 40% CDR without item 3165 ? /s

dim2aMay 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's kinda what I'm saying. CDR is so powerful that if only 1 had it, it would be the default go to 90+% of the time most likely.

For me it often has the reverse effect if cdr is already capped, which often is when I decide to get MR on a jungler like Vi. At that point I feel that non-cdr items have just better statline (since their power budget is not in cdr which I don't need), so I get gargoyle stoneplate on her even though I don't really value the active that much -- it has just better stats in a teamfight. I would've loved abyssal passive some games, or spirit visage in others, but if I am already maxed on cdr, stats on those items are just not good enough to justify the purchase.

Sire HippingtonMay 7, 20171 votes

Though quite a lot of that comes from the lack of other cdr options on tanks. FH has been in a bad state for quite some time, Iceborn depends on how well you synergies with it, and Warmongs still is somewhat niche.

Champion SkinMay 7, 20171 votes

Well Tanks are mostly utility champions so having more up time on their CC/utility is of course very valuable (it also makes some tanks more durable by allowing them to use their defensive abilities more often)

ProfDrDeathMay 7, 20172 votes

With this discussion, I remember how CdR items used to be more differentiated in their possible amounts, with items having between 5% (Randuin's Omen) and 25% (Frozen Heart) CdR. Most common was 15% CdR, iIrc, on things like Youmuu's, Shurelia's Reverie and Athene's.

The issue back then was that it was easy to be missing the CdR cap by 5%, either by having too much CdR (3x15%, for instance) or not having enough.

Would it be plausible to bring this more finely differentiated system back if one would find a way to make overcapping less punishing? For instance, and for a possibly stupid idea, by having overcapped CdR being converted in attack speed?

AzteryzMay 7, 20171 votes

hey rep

have you considered planning out some of these new mr items like how you did with the energized attack speed items?

where you make all the passive unique but buff up the passive to further cement each item individually so players have to be picky on what mr item they should use

RaxistaichoMay 7, 20171 votes

What you guys probably should do is make a basic item that provides cdr. That way it could build into the other two and not feel weird providing a stat not given by any of their components.

Hyrum GraffMay 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

What you guys probably should do is make a basic item that provides cdr. That way it could build into the other two and not feel weird providing a stat not given by any of their components.

There's no cdr base item (except item 3301 ) because cdr is powerful and it's important to limit how available it is in the early game.

Most cdr components come from two of the base item: item 3114 item 3067 item 3133 item 3101

A few are from upgrading the base item: item 3108 item 3057

And one outlier: item 3024

If the items in the OP all want to keep their cdr, probably the easiest way to do it is make all those items build from item 3067 , then replace item 3211 w/ some combination of item 1033 item 1057 item 1028

An alternative would be to make item 3211 to build from item 1033 + , to mirror item 3082 In this case, the build path would probably be something like + item 3067 + item 1028 = item 3065

A third option would be to shift things around so item 3211 itself gives cdr (it would probably need to lose the hp regen passive, or else it would have to be too expensive).

OceanicEyesMay 7, 20171 votes

I'm loving the 3 tanky MR options we have.

SilverjustMay 7, 20171 votes

What I dont understand is why does item 3194 reduce magic onhit-damage? I thougt it was against mages with spammable spells and dots

RebonackMay 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

What I dont understand is why does reduce magic onhit-damage? I thougt it was against mages with spammable spells and dots

Because the game really needed an item to counter Kog's sustained magic damage.

This coming from a Kog OTP.

MelledoneusMay 7, 20171 votes

On a somewhat related note, did you know Spirit Visage has less HP than its components? I'm a little intrigued if this was intended, and what it means.

LankPantsMay 7, 20174 votes

The same items with different passives? Where have we seen that before... item 3046 item 3087 item 3085 item 3094 . There's nothing at all wrong with this design, it actually promotes choice since all of the items fill the same niche so you don't need to worry about one just falling statistically short.

AmazoXMay 7, 20171 votes

None of them have same passives..

LankPantsMay 7, 20177 votes

The same items with different passives?

iPooUnicornsMay 6, 20172 votes

Side note: Galio can now build 4 MR items and have 40% CDR, 1025 Bonus HP, 225 Bonus MR, 400% Bonus HP Regen, 70 AP, and 4 Unique Passives.

LankPantsMay 7, 20175 votes

And die to an ADC that looks at him funny.

No, he can't do that. He just can't get away with at best 1 armour item and Tabi.

iPooUnicornsMay 7, 20171 votes

He does get damage reduction that scales off of MR. With those 4 items, it adds up to about +20% extra damage reduction, for a total of +60% damage reduction.

LankPantsMay 7, 20173 votes

Which lasts for 2 seconds at best. The simple fact is that's not good enough in a teamfight. When that spell drops you're going to have to deal with an ADC chunking you out for 500 damage a hit. You'll die almost instantly when your W's not up.

Champion SkinMay 7, 20171 votes

Well Galio could do it if he plans to split push against an AP champion all game long and mostly avoid teamfights (though that seems like a silly idea... why pick Galio if all you want to do is split push?)

PartholonianMay 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And die to an ADC that looks at him funny.

No, he can't do that. He just can't get away with at best 1 armour item and Tabi.

Well, not against a balanced team comp, anyway. If the enemy picks Ziggs bot and doesn't put any physical damage in their comp, or just gets all mages in ARAM, it might be an effective and fun build. But I don't think that kind of edge case should be balanced around.

LyingOnLineMay 6, 20172 votes

Because tank items get CDR so tanks can have CDR.

It's one of the few stats they scale with.

Also, your math is terrible and would be massive nerfs to these items.

SohleksMay 6, 20171 votes

Probably so they are easily adopted for now.

I do think it's kinda lazy they all just mildly give 10% cdr

Tank MR items before never really gave damage though so CDR was a psuedo way to do it.

Abyssal Sceptar I guess has its CDR grandfathered in from its previous form. It certainly helps cement it as the offensive option with the magic dmg increase.

The Lost MarblesMay 6, 20171 votes

I still remember when Visage had 20% CDR.

RebonackMay 7, 20171 votes

Odd question for Repertoir: Have you guys considered making, maybe, two Armor items and two MR items that pack 20% CDR and then simply removing the stat from the rest of the gear? I mean, two reasonably diverse items on both sides. As in one with resistance and HP and the other with pure resistance.

That way a Tank could get their CDR requirements out of the way with two purchases and then pick the rest of their gear based on passives provided without getting stuck with extra CDR.