Yes, Stormrazor is a good item on Jhin; no it isn't what's making him OP.

iPooUnicorns·Oct 2, 2018·69 votes·19,958 views

The true culprit is Hail of Blades, and the way it interacts with his passive.

Jhin gains bonus movement speed after landing critical strikes, this bonus movement speed scales with attack speed, when paired with the huge attack speed increase that Hail of Blades offers, Jhin becomes more than The Fast.

There is an incredibly simple, yet effective fix to this issue:

Make Jhin's passive movement speed increase only scale with permanent attack speed bonuses (meaning items).

This would not nerf his damage output, nor would it nerf Jhin's benefit from building attack speed items, it would only nerf his movement speed interaction with Hail of Blades (and Rageblade).

68 Comments

OleandervineOct 2, 201832 votes

Edited because it can be done... I think the coding involved in "permanent" versus "temporary" would be wayyyyyyyyyy too far involved to be just a simple fix for Jhin. I don't think there's a single thing in the game that operates on "permanent" or "temporary" conditions, so they'd have to apply this coding trigger to literally everything.

Hail of Blades is rough on Jhin, yes. But the real issue is Stormrazor. It's giving him a GUARANTEED critical strike to activate his move speed passive, and with how quickly you can complete the item in the game, this is what's causing the problem. It's also a problem because with any kind of AS built on him, just the time it takes for him to reload will be long enough to allow for Stormrazor's crit to be up again. Riot needs to face the music and understand that Stormrazor is a bad item and has been a health problem across the board (not just on Jhin, but AD assassins, divers, everyone) and should be removed. Once it's removed, then they can see how Jhin's doing and evaluate how to move forward from there.

HethaleanOct 2, 20189 votes

{quoted}

I think the coding involved in "permanent" versus "temporary" would be wayyyyyyyyyy too far involved to be just a simple fix for Jhin. I don't think there's a single thing in the game that operates on "permanent" or "temporary" conditions, so they'd have to apply this coding trigger to literally everything.

Hail of Blades is rough on Jhin, yes. But the real issue is Stormrazor. It's giving him a GUARANTEED critical strike to activate his move speed passive, and with how quickly you can complete the item in the game, this is what's causing the problem. It's also a problem because with any kind of AS built on him, just the time it takes for him to reload will be long enough to allow for Stormrazor's crit to be up again. Riot needs to face the music and understand that Stormrazor is a bad item and has been a health problem across the board (not just on Jhin, but AD assassins, divers, everyone) and should be removed. Once it's removed, then they can see how Jhin's doing and evaluate how to move forward from there.

They did it with Kaisa and her Evolves. Temporary buffs don't count.

OleandervineOct 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

They did it with Kaisa and her Evolves. Temporary buffs don't count.

Fair point then, I had forgotten that.

Random LanerOct 3, 20182 votes

ALSO stormrazor gives ms too when it procs a crit. doesnt it? i think its quite an unhealthy item overall, not even for jhin but for anyone who builds it first like jinx or cait or draven maybe, in lane its very FeelsBad when they back, and come back with 100% crit on one item in lane.

IfnethOct 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Edited because it can be done... I think the coding involved in "permanent" versus "temporary" would be wayyyyyyyyyy too far involved to be just a simple fix for Jhin. I don't think there's a single thing in the game that operates on "permanent" or "temporary" conditions, so they'd have to apply this coding trigger to literally everything.

Hail of Blades is rough on Jhin, yes. But the real issue is Stormrazor. It's giving him a GUARANTEED critical strike to activate his move speed passive, and with how quickly you can complete the item in the game, this is what's causing the problem. It's also a problem because with any kind of AS built on him, just the time it takes for him to reload will be long enough to allow for Stormrazor's crit to be up again. Riot needs to face the music and understand that Stormrazor is a bad item and has been a health problem across the board (not just on Jhin, but AD assassins, divers, everyone) and should be removed. Once it's removed, then they can see how Jhin's doing and evaluate how to move forward from there.

How about they limit his movement speed passive to the guaranteed Crit from his passive?

NichtHurzOct 3, 20181 votes

Then he would be 100% garbage in late game, because he has no way to get around in fights, which he needs to be able to do because he is not a hypercarry just standing in the backline and melting people. He needs to be able to move faster to choose his targets and because he won't ever be in a position to retaliate against assassins jumping on him. Something should be done, but this might kill the champion.

Magic Wizard JoeOct 3, 20183 votes

He did just fine before stormraizor. You're creating a problem that wasn't there to begin with. Never have I heard jhin complain about not being fast enough to move around to select the right targets... What adc can choose who they want to kill? Adc's don't have that choice. They kill who is presented to them and auto the strongest target in their range in a specific order.

ADC/APC > Assassin > Bruiser/Juggernaut > Tank > Support.

That is the order in which adc's should be looking to damage which can change respectively depending on the situation. So if Kog'maw is out of your range. Move on to the next threat, Zed also out of range? I guess you're just gonna have to auto mordekaiser. No adc should be able to "choose his/her target" as they please without the help of a teammate. An Item should not be the reason an adc can do whatever they want in team fights and get away with it unless of course it's a support item bought by your support.

I'm looking at you item 3107

NichtHurzOct 3, 20182 votes

Hu? This wasn't about Stormrazor, but about the suggested change to his passive "How about they limit his movement speed passive to the guaranteed Crit from his passive?". I agree there's a problem, I don't think his MS buff should only apply to his 4th shot. That's all I said.

CIaymanOct 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think the coding involved in "permanent" versus "temporary" would be wayyyyyyyyyy too far involved

That's literally just how Kai'Sa passive works. Her E evolve doesn't take runes into account.

Marian CrossOct 3, 20181 votes

As a jhin main I agree so much on this. The only issue is if you remove Stormrazer from the game crit ad's that would build it first will take such a massive hit with the state of the game being the way it is now. Once the games damage is lower and the game isnt over in 15-20 minutes I think it would be fine

OleandervineOct 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Marian Cross,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=irfAfL3g,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2018-10-03T03:40:01.300+0000)

As a jhin main I agree so much on this. The only issue is if you remove Stormrazer from the game crit ad's that would build it first will take such a massive hit with the state of the game being the way it is now. Once the games damage is lower and the game isnt over in 15-20 minutes I think it would be fine

The thing is, Riot intended to knock Crit marksmen down a peg or two by tinkering with the pricing and structure of crit items - then they released this bursty crutch for them. It's an unhealthy item when it becomes absolutely necessary for an entire subclass of marksmen to function, and it's even more of an unhealthy item when it's being abused by AD assassins for guaranteed burst. The item needs to go, and Riot needs to re-evaluate how they can make crit marksmen functional without resorting to giving them a crutch.

Marian CrossOct 4, 20181 votes

no, I totaly agree with that, but with the current state of the game Stormrazer cant be removed or crit ad's that build it first will be trash+

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

Ok, this crit is guaranteed, but it's basically the same as getting lucky crits, but this time you get them for sure. But with normal movement speed burst, it's ok really. But the insane amount he gets now with the AS from: HoB, Stormrazor 20% on crit and its AS, it's just insane.

Daddy AntsOct 2, 201814 votes

I completely agree.

Only Attack Speed he buys from items should feed into his passive.

Not AS from runes or temporary AS buff effects.

Legend Alacrity, Hail of Blades and Precision bonus do not feed into Kaisa 's evolves so they shouldn't feed into Jhin's passive.

No rageblade feeding into his passive either.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

This would limit a lot his interactions with supp (or other champs) that buff AS, and they are already limited (when I pick Jhin and my supp pick Lulu I ask "why?"). I think it just meeds a special treatment on HoB, because his conditiona MS passive is different from the permanent change in the kit Kai'Sa has.

Daddy AntsOct 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This would limit a lot his interactions with supp (or other champs) that buff AS, and they are already limited (when I pick Jhin and my supp pick Lulu I ask "why?"). I think it just meeds a special treatment on HoB, because his conditiona MS passive is different from the permanent change in the kit Kai'Sa has.

Not like Lulu Jhin is that good to begin with.

Lulu is better with champions like Vayne, Twitch, Kog, Jinx, Tristana, Xayah, Caitlyn.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

Yeah, that's what I mean, imagine it without even the AS conversion how lame it would be.

Arcanine19Oct 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I completely agree.

Only Attack Speed he buys from items should feed into his passive.

Not AS from runes or temporary AS buff effects.

Legend Alacrity, Hail of Blades and Precision bonus do not feed into 's evolves so they shouldn't feed into Jhin's passive.

No rageblade feeding into his passive either.

I agree with what you say, but at least kaisa uses the attack speed from alacrity and precision, if you deny jhin his bonus stats from those he gets nothing when picking them since attack speed doesnt affect reload like it does with graves

ZerglingOneOct 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I completely agree.

Only Attack Speed he buys from items should feed into his passive.

Not AS from runes or temporary AS buff effects.

Legend Alacrity, Hail of Blades and Precision bonus do not feed into 's evolves so they shouldn't feed into Jhin's passive.

No rageblade feeding into his passive either.

Then...do those actually increase his attack speed? Because if that's the case you have a way, WAY bigger problem on your hands because Jhin with real DPS is going to be absolutely horrifying. It will actually make the situation way worse because those sources will just be an overall increase to his damage over time.

And I'm kind of downplaying it...It really will be like world-endingly broken if he gets that.

And then you run into the problem of "well...how about none at all?" Well that's a problem too.

You can't just say "Oh, those sources of aspd don't count." that's just kinda bullshit all around.

It really is the character that's to blame in this case I think. Not the runes or items.

Though if you ask me, just make Stormrazor not a crit for all intents and purposes. Make it a flat bonus that goes on top of an auto attack and doesn't interact with crit anything...You may even have to lock out critical strikes on your basic attack (still can crit on shiv though) when it hits just so it doesn't add on top of their damage as well.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 2, 20186 votes

Stormrazor is just what's enabling the problem earlier on, while HoB is the core of the problem.

Nerfing his interaction with HoB fixes the issue without making Stormrazor+HoB mandatory on him, as well.

theChibiTinaOct 2, 20185 votes

It's a combination of Hail of blades, Stormrazor, and his passive synergising to well. Stormrazor gives him a guaranteed crit to activate his passive which is being scaled up by hail of blades being active. So he crits you for a high amount, runs away at mach 10, and then waits for things to reset so he can go and do it all over again. Since it's his first buy and can be bought fairly early, it gives him one of the strongest early/mid games of all the ADCs. I think what you're talking about where having his passive only scale with AS from items would help a bit though. They did the same with Kai'sa and her upgrades, so it definitely wouldn't hurt for Riot to give it a chance.

IdveYsUfSKOct 2, 20185 votes

lmao u guys don't even know what you are talking about. Its the insane ms with stormrazor on top of jhin's passive bonus ms which reduces the need for good positioning and extending his range artificially. You can deliberately position poorly and bait out lots of skills and not get punished. ADCs don't even need much skill to kite nowadays.

His passive extra ms should be changed to fixed scaling with lv and reduced.

ZT XperimentorOct 19, 20181 votes

I'd say you're both right. Since jihn's 4th shot is a guarantied critical and he can hold it for a while, besides his passive converting attack speed into a percent boost of attack damage, he can stall for a massive hit. But also since before the class reworks, and amplified from the rework, gave marksmen movement speed all over the place, and you're spot on about the detrimental effect that's caused.

SaiannaOct 2, 20184 votes

I kinda remember how Riot didn't want to put DAMAGE and ATTACK SPEED on one item, but rather have AS + crit and DMG + crit.

Either way Storm razor isn't a "good item". The shit's broken to hell.

Linna ExcelOct 2, 20181 votes

Then why does Blade of the Ruined King exist? Or Rageblade for that matter.

TerozuOct 2, 20184 votes

Both of those have low base stats and passives that allow for sustained damage, which is fine because that's a Marksman'a job, sustained damage.

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20181 votes

Botrk i can see why but rageblade with its double proc passive ends up being broken just as often as stormrazor.

If we threw the current rageblade back to like season 5 then kog, varus and vayne would be the gods of league because of it.

BestPudgeNAOct 2, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The true culprit is Hail of Blades, and the way it interacts with his passive.

Jhin gains bonus movement speed** after landing critical strikes**, this bonus movement speed scales with attack speed, when paired with the huge attack speed increase that Hail of Blades offers, Jhin becomes more than The Fast.

There is an incredibly simple, yet effective fix to this issue:

This would not nerf his damage output, nor would it nerf Jhin's benefit from building attack speed items, it would only nerf his movement speed interaction with Hail of Blades (and Rageblade).

So you're saying an item that gives him 100% crit doesn't help make use of an ability that only happens when you crit?

Also if hail of blades was the main part then why wasn't lethal tempo Jhin a thing?

ShablagooOct 2, 20183 votes

You dont think having two assured crits along with two movement speed bonuses is the problem? Or the fact that the item scales way to well with him. Or the fact that it makes him a range nuker viable at each stage of the gam, which is what we didnt wont. Or the fact that it completely negates the crit changes everyone wanted in the first place. The rune has nothing to do with it he can use fleet and still be successful the, in fact I am positive more people do pick fleet anyway. The item is the problem man it make him way to fast.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20182 votes

Should I say it?

The best iteration of Jhin was AD Lethality.

You actually had to hit skillshots and go and hit granades, you had lots of raw AD so while your regular shots were average, your 4th shot was completely busted, and you weren't running at mach speed each crit.

HÔPÊOct 2, 20183 votes

Stormrazor should never be created anyways. Adc should do sustain dmg per aa not oneshot.

MorganFreemanBotOct 3, 20183 votes

Politely, no.

Jhin's problem is Stormrazor, not Hail.

Simply put, I'm a jungle main. Several of my favorite junglers (Olaf, Nocturne, Rek'sai), are anathema to ADCs if they get in range.. at least during the early game.

Jhin is not afraid of them.

You can E directly under him and knock him up with Rek'sai, earning what should be a kill. However with Razor you have to kill him in the initial burst phase - about 2 seconds - or else he can't be killed. Once he starts running, Storm Razor makes him completely uncatchable.

This is an even larger problem later on in the game, when it's fully possible for an ADC to not be IMMEDIATELY deleted in most cases, but routinely live for a few seconds. This makes Jhin all but unkillable, because he can run away from any threats at a million miles an hour.

GripaAviaraOct 5, 20181 votes

Storm Razor makes him completely uncatchable.

How? It has almost 3 sec CD on Jhin

CronofugeOct 3, 20183 votes

I've been building 100% crit on jhin to counteract melee fighters for years but before stormrazor that was a 4 item power fantasy. Now you can zoom around from your first purchase. Stormrazor is definitely the problem. It is on him, and it is on other champs too. You can still do the fast build with fleet footwork for some lane sustain against tougher lanes, you just lack some punch and the real movement speed.

LimrickOct 2, 20182 votes

Or, make Jhin only get movespeed from his fourth shot. Even if he gets less movespeed after fixing his HoB interaction, he's still getting movespeed on every hit. That's a better Sivir passive as just part of an already incredibly good passive.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

Yeah and punish him for buying crit, sure makes a lot of sense.

If you do that then you increment the conversion of crit into ad and remove the crit reduction he gets, let's see.

He doesn't have the dps of a regular marksman, he needs that MS to be able to kite while he has to wait for his other shot. By the time Jhin hs another shot ready Sivir will have already 3 shots flying all over the places (she has an AA reset).

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20181 votes

Except Jhin outruns sivir ult if i recall, so he can just run back and forth hitting her while staying out of her range.

She is kinda bad for that reason..... lower end range and a overall average speed buff.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

Yeah I meant a notmal Jhin not his current stupid state, should have specified.

LimrickOct 3, 20181 votes

How is that punishing him lmao, he still can crit idiot, he just doesn't break the sound barrier every shot. He doesn't have the DPS of a regular marksman because he has ridiculous burst. Those 3 autos from Sivir probably don't even do as much damage as Jhin's 1 shot. His main weakness is supposed to be that he's slow, he already has traps, a root, insane range, and burst damage to protect himself.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

I did read it wrong, no need to call people idiots for nothing.

Traps need placing and cast time, roots needs hitting someone before, cast time and actually landing it. His AA range is average, he definitely makes it up with really long range abilities ofc.

If you think about it Sivir can just ult and run circles around jhin avoiding his spells and constantly autoing him (I'm talking about REGULAR Jhin not the broken shit he is now). It's not fair to me to nerf his crit feature giving him MS because it's his lategame scaling on AAs where he can't go AS, simple as that.

LynXerfOct 3, 20182 votes

item 3095 is THE perfect item for Jhin . There's barely a way to make an item better for him as it gives literally everything he wants and needs in a single item. Damage, guaranteed crits that won't hurt his DPS, insane movement speed. Will never forget a couple of weeks ago, as a lvl 18 Jax and 20% CDR, chasing a Jhin down - he actually got out of my leap range after an auto - which includes of course the anim time for the auto and then turn and run away from a melee champion with movespeed buff from tri force. Hilarious, not even Trist can do that with her rocket jump.

It's more suited to him than: item 3148 was for old Akali item 3115 Kayle item 3147 Khazix item 3078 Jax item 3089 Veigar item 3071 Darius

etc etc. It's the best (OP) champion/item pairing in the game right now by a long shot. Hail of blades is just the icing on the cake in my opinion.

All that really needs to happen to fix Jhin is remove the attack speed - move speed buff and instead give him an amount of innate scaling movements speed after crits (based on level). His passive is already 3 books long there's no harm in removing 1 of the 17 billion elements in there.

LittleDemonTristOct 19, 20181 votes

Trforce darius does more dmg than bbc dar

Daddy AntsOct 3, 20182 votes

Summary of bot lane in 10 seconds

Jhin Kaisa Lucian

Nice and Diverse :))))

GripaAviaraOct 5, 20181 votes

MissFortune every game

SonicAFOct 3, 20181 votes

Why does he have movement speed for crits? Is there an explanation?

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

Yeah, it's because his AS doesn't scale off of Items but only with his levels, so he doesn't have the same AA per seconds of a regular ADC. He makes it up by converting AS and Crit% into AD so that his AAs pack up more raw dmg than regular marksmen autos, but if for example you put Jinx and Jhin and let them auto eachother standing still, Jhin will do less dmg because Jinx will dps way more. So a percentage of his AS gets converted into MS that procs on crits so that he can Kite and reapproach his target to hit it again and retreat (or chase as well). But the most important point is that he has to reload on his 4th shot, so it being a guaranteed crit lets him have MS so he can retreat and reload or he would be at the complete mercy of the enemy until he reloads. He gets another compensation nerf on his crits having them deal 25% less dmg (so he deals 175% dmg on crits instead of 200%)

My god his passive is a fucking mess. I love it.

SonicAFOct 3, 20182 votes

The fact that Jihn deals slightly less dps is fully compensated by execute damage and the fact that he is a bloody assassin - not an AD carry.

Movement speed portion of his passive makes him overpowered. It is the reason why we see jhin picked every fucking game.

Scrap it.

RyusaetherOct 3, 20181 votes

Yeah in fact it was really problematic before the ADC items rework and HoB, sure bud.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

SonicAFOct 3, 20182 votes

It's like Kennen and Singed, who are most of the time slightly stronger than they should be, but nobody plays them because they are clunky and ugly.

They become an issue when something really synergizing with their strengths crops up and people are forced to play them. This is true about jhin.

RyusaetherOct 5, 20182 votes