Remember when ADCs had to build lifesteal to access sustain?

iPooUnicorns·Apr 24, 2018·86 votes·18,375 views

Ohhh I member.

Now you just coast through ~~ laning phase~~ the entire game with Fleet Footwork, even with the nerfs to it.

104 Comments

KazekibaApr 24, 201842 votes

Theyve been doing that for 3 years now. FFW is just Warlord's Bloodlust but renamed to accurately fit its intended users.

iPooUnicornsApr 24, 201828 votes

I had just as much issue with Warlords as I do with Fleet Footwork. Allowing ADCs to forgo lifesteal entirely is a big part of why ADCs powerspike so early.

BestPudgeNAApr 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Theyve been doing that for 3 years now. FFW is just Warlord's Bloodlust but renamed to accurately fit its intended users.

This is just factually wrong. Warlords intended users were Bruisers and diver types. It's why the healing was halfed for ranged. But then riot was like fuck it why not just make it better for Marksman like they do with literally everything.

Sp33d Zer0Apr 25, 20187 votes

you mean like sterraks being melee only. And Conqueror being melee friendly and not ranged. And guinsoo having less autos for marksmen. And Frozen mallet having a stronger slow on melee. And targons being halved for ranged. And knights vow being halved for ranged.

BestPudgeNAApr 25, 201814 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q40Bq64R,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-25T00:07:46.199+0000)

you mean like sterraks being melee only. And Conqueror being melee friendly and not ranged. And guinsoo having less autos for marksmen. And Frozen mallet having a stronger slow on melee. And targons being halved for ranged. And knights vow being halved for ranged.

ADCs live in the own little fantasy world don't they?. Conq was added because ADC got 5 Keystones and there wasn't one for most melee carries. You basically get a 5 to 1 ratio on keystone choice and ur gonna bitch? There is 4 zeal items for ranged and 2 for melee. Guinsoo wasn't meant to be an ADC item, it was meant for melee despite it's "nerfs" to usefulness on marksman it's still built on them much more often then it is on melee. Same goes for mallet, wit's end ect. GA was taken from tanks and brusiers and given to ADC. You see the thing is ADC don't really put themselves into nearly as much danger to auto attack as melee do because of this Melee NEEDS better itemization or they are massively underpowered. When you see things like item 3031 have the same stats for melee as ranged that's not balance that is adc favortism

Sp33d Zer0Apr 25, 20184 votes

But then riot was like fuck it why not just make it better for Marksman like they do with literally everything.

Lists multiple items that have better stats for melee than ranged.

Gets upset that I pointed it out.

Let's not even get into the fact that melee have higher base stats and per level growth than ranged as they very well should considering the range disadvantage.

Melee get shit to make up for the punishment of being melee. Get over it.

y0r1ckApr 25, 201810 votes

And melee carries are still never viable. Do you really think the pitiful extra base stats are a replacement for range?

Spicy RiceApr 25, 20187 votes

Range is such an unbelievable strong stat, that even with tons of base stats, it doesn't make up for the fact that they are melee

Snowman ArcApr 25, 20182 votes

Well, bruisers and fighers also naturally can access tank items, unlike ADCs who don't wanna buy those.

BestPudgeNAApr 25, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q40Bq64R,comment-id=00000001000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-25T10:54:58.889+0000)

Well, bruisers and fighers also naturally can access tank items, unlike ADCs who don't wanna buy those.

Bruisers don't want tank items. They want item 3053 item 3071 type items. But generally they're forced to buy tank items. ADC don't want tank items either but unlike fighters they're never forced to buy them because range is OP.

dunder killApr 24, 201831 votes

No I don't remember it because there has always been some sort of lifesteal in masteries. I also remember 2-3 Lifesteal quints being a necessity for like 3-4 years.

iPooUnicornsApr 24, 201831 votes

Yet you still saw ADCs frequently picking up a item 3072 or item 3153 or at the very least sitting on a item 1053 before they went for last whisper.

So typically their builds would look like item 3006 item 3031 item 3087 item 3072 item 3035 item 3026

A well rounded build of AD, Crit, attack speed, lifesteal, armor pen and defense

Now they build more along the lines of item 3006 item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 item 3035 item 3026

Which allows them to achieve a much higher DPS thanks to a higher attack speed and crit chance, without sacrificing sustain thanks to Fleet Footwork/Warlord's. Not to mention ADCs never take legend blood line (the lifesteal mastery) and instead opt for even more attack speed.

So while in prior seasons they did get some free lifesteal, they weren't able to completely forgo building lifesteal and still have access to good sustain.

MizayaApr 24, 20185 votes

If you're including GA you must be talking about much earlier before. And at that time the adc usually just built a BT first.

IDK why Riot switched it up and made IE like 400 gold cheaper while making BT the much more expensive item. They've intentionally pushed IE/ER as a first item for a while now.

On Graves in S2/S3 for example, typical build looked something like this: item 3072 > item 3006 > item 3046 > item 3035 > item 3031 > item 3026 / item 3102

EedatApr 24, 201810 votes

ADCs rushed BT because it was broken op because of it's stacking mechanic back in the day. The only time BotRK rush is a common thing is when they over buff it. Crit ADC builds have existed forever. You're dodging the point entirely. There was NEVER a time in LoL history where ADCs didn't have access to LS without building it

iPooUnicornsApr 24, 201813 votes

You're misrepresenting my point. Yes crit has always been the most common / best ADC build, yes ADCs have always had access to some free sustain, but never to the extent that Fleet Footwork gives.

EedatApr 24, 20185 votes

What is Warlords? If you want ADCs to build LS, then maybe we shouldn't have gutted the stat with item 3076 . FF does not give any drastic amount of sustain more than Warlords and people always had access to lifesteal via runes and masteries. FF also does not give anywhere close to the amount of sustain as a BT.

Marksmen sustain is drastically lower now than it ever has been in the past. FF does not give unfair amounts of sustain

YumaS2AstralApr 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

What is Warlords? If you want ADCs to build LS, then maybe we shouldn't have gutted the stat with . FF does not give any drastic amount of sustain more than Warlords and people always had access to lifesteal via runes and masteries. FF also does not give anywhere close to the amount of sustain as a BT.

Marksmen sustain is drastically lower now than it ever has been in the past. FF does not give unfair amounts of sustain

Maybe lifesteal shouldn't be an unhealthy stat that transforms any ADC into a ranged draintank and makes it so that as an assassin or burst mage, either you 100-0 them in 1 second or they outduel you or get away alive because they just heal all damage you done to them

And the only way to avoid all that is - guess what - Grievous Wounds.

Sp33d Zer0Apr 24, 20184 votes

Runes had life steal in them.

We had warlords blood lust.

Masteries gave life steal IIRC.

dunder killApr 24, 20185 votes

Yes they were? What is Warlords and/or lifesteal quints?

Why is it so hard to admit you were wrong? Instead you're just going to try to hold on to your point that is blatantly 100% wrong. God damn dude just say "oops, I forgot about that. My bad."

iPooUnicornsApr 24, 201818 votes

Wow! A whopping 3-4.5% lifesteal from runes, that's totally enough to skip building a lifesteal item!

Fleet Footwork and Warlords are essentially the same keystone, this problem existed before the rune rework. I'm just addressing the current iteration of it.

Edit: And yes, I did misrepresent the laning sustain from Fleet Footwork vs prior seasons, but that doesn't stop it from being completely overbearing for the rest of the game.

dunder killApr 25, 20185 votes

It was actually 4%-6%. They were 2% each for many years until they got nerfed to 1.5%. Vampirism gave another 2% LS + 2% spellvamp.

And yes, 6%-8% on every auto is still WAY more than a FF proc every 10.

Snowman ArcApr 25, 20182 votes

That's because there wasn't a big variety in the offensive items that would choose. That's why you would often see ADCs building the old Banshee's Veil, for example. There was no RFC, which is almost a core item now, ER wasn't viable as an item for any champ, which is also core in some ADCs (Sivir, Xayah, Lucian). These are two item slots that are not available now. Back then, the core was IE and Shiv, with LW coming after, and then you'd have lifesteal item and maybe a Phantom Dancer, QSS, or I don't know, a second IE.

You have so many more damage options now, that it's almost necessary to buy so that you can shread tanks, and you sacrifice lifesteal for them.

There were always options for lifesteal even without the keystones. I always liked Graves top (when it was meta) with 3x lifesteal quints, along with the 2% lifesteal/spellvamp mastery. Having Doran's Blade as a starting item, and I'd have almost 10% lifesteal at the start of the game. Basically every AA would heal me for around 7 HP from level 1. I tend to believe that was way more broken, honestly.

OHminusApr 25, 20182 votes

Nononono. Their builds used to be item 3072 item 3006 item 3046 item 3031 item 3035 item 3026

This was when BT used to give 100 AD and good lifesteal and was considered broken, but I still liked this iteration of ADCs better than IE rush

Starcraft243verApr 25, 20182 votes

Remember when BT first was the go to item ?

Sire HippingtonApr 24, 20186 votes

Lifesteal quints weren't a neccesity after they got nerfed, and while they+masteries were still common, they were not enough to fully cover their sustain, so BT or BotrK still where often seen even early in their builts, while now you see adc often enough with full 100% crit or atleast 80% and no lifesteal. Old runes+masteries were around ~8%, which is what the minor rune right now gives already, while fleet foodwork adds alot more sustain on top of that.

VelasanApr 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

No I don't remember it because there has always been some sort of lifesteal in masteries. I also remember 2-3 Lifesteal quints being a necessity for like 3-4 years.

To be fair the amount you got from the old runes and masteries was not nearly as much. Wasn't it like 1.5 per quint and you were giving up nearly 5 attack speed for each slot you used up?

Even if you had the mastery and all 3 quints you were looking at about 6.5% unless you built more and you were giving up almost 15% attack speed and stats from the opposite mastery to do it.

ACTI0NBASTARDApr 24, 201813 votes

Bloodthirster rush. Never forget.

saltranApr 24, 201812 votes

100 AD Bloodthirster never forget [zombie-nunu-bummed]

ChaddyFantomeApr 25, 20183 votes

5 BT Talon getting all his HP back on one Q Never forget. item 3072 Talon

[sg-lulu]

XeroKimoApr 25, 20183 votes

4 BT + LW Draven I want to die

GigglesOApr 24, 201813 votes

{quoted}

Ohhh I member.

Now you just coast through laning phase with Fleet Footwork, even with the nerfs to it.

Remember when ranged and melee champs had significantly different base stats?

The Sword SaintApr 24, 201810 votes

Remember back before keystone masteries when all we could customize going into a match was a handful of tiny base stats that had little real impact outside of pre6 laning, and had no impact on playstyle at all?

Oh wait, that was a terrible system and now we actually get to customize our play to a much greater extent instead of dicking around with placebo stats that amounted to little more than 'copy the most efficient setup from some pro or just lose lane' with a net result of no impact on anyone since everyone took the same shit.

hhaavviikkApr 24, 201817 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q40Bq64R,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-24T17:33:07.671+0000)

Remember back before keystone masteries when all we could customize going into a match was a handful of tiny base stats that had little real impact outside of pre6 laning, and had no impact on playstyle at all?

Oh wait, that was a terrible system and now we actually get to customize our play to a much greater extent instead of dicking around with placebo stats that amounted to little more than 'copy the most efficient setup from some pro or just lose lane' with a net result of no impact on anyone since everyone took the same shit.

oh yeah my 20% crit chance page sure didn't change my playstyle, oh my 30 flat armor sure didn't change my playstyle, my full attackspeed runepage sure didn't change my playstyle!

complete bollocks

The Sword SaintApr 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

oh yeah my 20% crit chance page sure didn't change my playstyle, oh my 30 flat armor sure didn't change my playstyle, my full attackspeed runepage sure didn't change my playstyle!

complete bollocks

Sure those did because they are so extreme. They are so extreme that they were almost certainly trash options outside of some trolly normals.

hhaavviikkApr 24, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q40Bq64R,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T18:43:34.625+0000)

Sure those did because they are so extreme. They are so extreme that they were almost certainly trash options outside of some trolly normals.

oh yeah so trolly and trashy it got me into gold 1, sure thing bro, ranked isn't the end of the world, just because it doesn't reach challengers doesn't mean it didn't allow for diverse playstyles, it certainly offered more playstyles than this current system in ARAM, this new system made ARAM even more boring, you take dark harvest, you take the heal + gold on take down and if you don't you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, wow, such diverse playstyle!

InfernapeApr 24, 20187 votes

Didn't Riot say they didn't want FF to end up like Warlord's Bloodlust?

JbelsApr 24, 20186 votes

Hey, remember when Redemption didn't exist? I sure miss those days

Void KaijuApr 24, 20184 votes

Sustain as an ADC hasn't worked in years. Damage creep made them get instakilled by a stiff breeze. Nowadays you have greivous wounds easily accessible to every class, supports had to take up the mantle of heal and shielding since that was all that would save the ADC. Then with supports being able to cover that, the ADC who built the most burst pretty much autowon lane since the sucker who went sustain loses out on damage.

There's so many factors that have screwed over building sustain that to fix it riot would need to try and untangle years of bs. Fleet footwork was the easy fix because it gives decent self peel and lets an ADC build the Crit they have no choice but to pick up and also be able to last a little longer in lane. Still is mildly problematic but it was the easy fix.

LordGeovanniApr 25, 20185 votes

Riot has gutted anything that has killed an adc fast since halfway through season 3 .

KazekibaApr 25, 20181 votes

Kayn My path cuts through the bodies of the unwilling

LordGeovanniApr 27, 20181 votes

I think giving blue kayne both range extension on his w and not having to channel it was stupid one of those should have went to rhasst

YuGiHoApr 25, 20184 votes

Maybe thats why so many people have gravitated to brand support, because poke mages in the bot lane have a hard time getting their damage to stick.

saltranApr 25, 20181 votes

Have you played against an Electrocute Bard?

FutureCreatorApr 25, 20186 votes

extremely loud chime noises Bard item 3100 item 3092

HópeApr 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Ohhh I member.

Now you just coast through laning phase with Fleet Footwork, even with the nerfs to it.

Would you rather adcs go 0-7 because the enemy support poked him out of lane nonstop? No??

Bot lane is already a shit fest, ADCs like LIVING.

My Waifu VanillaApr 24, 20184 votes

It's almost like Doran's Blade gives healing. It's almost like Vamp Scepter could give sustain (except there is literally NO reason to buy it as it stands). It's almost like every support besides Brand/Zyra CAN heal the ADC through Relic Shield or their inherent heals. The problem is the fact FFW allows you to skip a lifesteal item besides DBlade and buy a second zeal item so you end up doing more damage than you would with PtA/Lethal Tempo anyway.

HópeApr 25, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q40Bq64R,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-04-24T23:37:25.339+0000)

It's almost like Doran's Blade gives healing.

3% lifesteal. To put it in perspective, you hit a minion for 50 early. 3% of 50 is 1.5. You have to hit a minion around 50 times to heal back what Janna would do to you with just her W very early.

It's almost like Vamp Scepter could give sustain (except there is literally NO reason to buy it as it stands).

Not a single marksmen besides Kaisa and Draven buy life steal in lane.

It's almost like every support besides Brand/Zyra CAN heal the ADC through Relic Shield or their inherent heals.

By any support you mean melee supports (TK,Alistar,Taric) All whom are given the heal on relic shield because they are champs who are 100% weak to poke lanes...?

The problem is the fact FFW allows you to skip a lifesteal item besides DBlade and buy a second zeal item so you end up doing more damage than you would with PtA/Lethal Tempo anyway.

Ok so take out FF and dorans blade. Now any poke that happens forces you out of lane

= Lane ending sooner =Tower being taken way faster = Harder snowballing for bot lane

You want that???

iPooUnicornsApr 25, 20184 votes

Dorans blade was never an issue.

If there wasn't Fleet Footwork / wasn't so strong, ADCs would actually have to take into account what their enemy lane is when buying items, instead of just rushing IE + Double Shiv every game.

Every other lane has to deal with this: AP Mid vs Zed, AP has to get a Zhonyas. AD Mid vs AP burst, AD has to get Hexdrinker. Tank Top against Aatrox, Tank has to get a Bramble Vest.

There's plenty of other instances where you need to counter build, but that should be enough to get the point across. ADCs are the only laner (that farms) that has the luxury of going for their optimal build, every game. The only thing that changes is whether they finish their shiv item first, or their IE first.

Snowman ArcApr 25, 20183 votes

There was a meta where BoRK was the rush item on almost any ADC, and everyone bitched about how the ADCs sustain so much. Pair that with the Ardent Censer meta, you could basically all-in, get as low as 100HP and then a Janna ardent censer shield would let you heal to full if you could access a minion wave. All these, with just a BoRK.

Do you really want uninteractive lanes where ADCs are forced to buy Vamp Sceptre first? It would definitely delay their powerspikes, but at the same time, it would just force a way more passive laning phase. At least, now there is some chance to try and trade with the enemy and have that damage stick, because honestly, the healing from FFW early on isn't really that much.

Elkington VIApr 26, 20183 votes

I miss Sanguine Blade. It feels like only adcs and fighters get access to lifesteal now. Bruisers are pretty much stuck with going Spirit Visage into tanky items, even though some of them scale very well with lifesteal.