Prove me wrong.
Edit:
I didn't expect this thread to be as popular as it is, so I just want to say a few quick things.
I do not claim Dominion to be the pinnacle of balanced game modes, it definitely has its fair share of flaws and overpowered champions. This thread was intended to highlight Riot's sheer lack of competence when it comes to balancing League, and managing it altogether also.
Cheers.
Rebonack122 votesWell, lets see...
Summoner's Rift: Massively tilted in favor of early game champions. Crystal Scar: Both early stomp to win comps and stall for late game comps work equally well.
Summoner's Rift: Fairly ridged lane positions that restrict team compositions. Crystal Scar: Provided you have one champ who can hold bottom lane, ideal team compositions are based purely on champion synergy and counter-picks.
Summoner's Rift: Massive collection of champions who are absolute trash. Crystal Scar: The only bad champions are the ones with stacking mechanics that aren't adjusted for the lack of lane phase and/or shorter games.
Summoner's Rift: Objectives favor Marksmen and require at least one on each team. Crystal Scar: Objectives can be taken with equal ease by all champions, making Marksmen optional.
Summoner's Rift: Snowballs like crazy, leading to a toxic defeatist attitude. Many games end in surrender. Crystal Scar: What little snowballing exists is countered by respawn timers and team bounties. The game is never over until its over.
Summoner's Rift: Lane phase combined with snowballing means one guy can totally lose the game for you 15 minutes in, leading to toxic team-mate blaming. Crystal Scar: A team game right from the gate, encourages team cooperation.
Looks like it checks out.
Rew71153 votesNo wonder Riot ignores this. Its too perfect as it is right now. Then again, I think I thought they said they are looking into Dominion so I'm actually scared. This may... be a sign of death. Also, Twisted Treeline is also more balanced than Summoner's Rift.
Summoner's Rift: Baron Nasher Twisted Treeline: Vile'Maw that dances with you.
I rest my case.
PeponiPoro8 votesHerald will dance with you.
A Miss Fortune15 votesToo bad nobody knows what it is yet.
Penta Penguin7 votesCrystal Scar: Hour long queues
Minarde3 votesAbout as common as they are on SR, so that's essentially neutral.
Penta Penguin6 votesI wait no longer than 5 minutes for a match on SR and that's on a bad day, it's usually 2-3 minutes. Higher elo? I don't know, but at least there's a community to speak of on this map.
Frikgeek16 votesThat's just not the case. If you played dominion as seriously as you do Summoner's Rift you'd notice how much better certain champions are on it. The reason some champions are 'outright trash' on SR is because people know SR so much better than they do Dominion.
If you had serious ranked play with enough people playing for Dominion you'd see a meta develop, and then you'd realise how outright broken some champs are and how trash others are.
Just as an example, champions with no ultimates or very short CD ults greatly outclass champions with big long CD ults as fighting happens all the time instead of once every 3-5 minutes. Global or semi-global teleports on reasonable CDs(Pantheon, TF) are also extremely strong, as is hypermobility(Riven, Nidalee, Quinn).
iPooUnicorns15 votesI have over 1000 wins in Dominion, and lots of experience in the now dead competitive scene, having won a few of the weekly tournaments.
MEMEME6708 votesDismissing your blatant ignorance of burden of proof, is the original reply wrong? Are you going to attempt to prove it as such? Or are you admitting that he's right?
Additionally, your experience in Dominion doesn't mean much given that the meta isn't being NEARLY pushed to its limits right now. It takes a ton of people to actually push a meta forward. NA on its own (as far as we know), would literally never have discovered how good 1-1-2+jungler (EDIT: I have since been corrected)1-1-(Adc+Support)+jungler was if it wasn't for EU in worlds showing them.
Rebonack5 votesDismissing your blatant ignorance of burden of proof, is the original reply wrong? Are you going to attempt to prove it as such? Or are you admitting that he's right?
's wrong. Mobility is quite strong, yes. Just as strong as quite a few other things. Solid CC and reach are both potent. Durability is great because it means a champion can stall longer until their team arrives. AoE wombos can decisively end fights and lead to 5caps. Had an absolutely beautiful one a few weeks back with Nami, Wukon, Ez, and MF. Resulted in a 5cap and won the game by 10 minutes in.
Additionally, your experience in Dominion doesn't mean much given that the meta isn't being NEARLY pushed to its limits right now. It takes a ton of people to actually push a meta forward. NA on its own (as far as we know), would literally never have discovered how good 1-1-2+jungler was if it wasn't for EU in worlds showing them.
Were you even here for Season 1?
112J was picked up right after Riot lobotomized the roaming meta (111JR) which was in the early Winter, well before Worlds.
Aside from sending one person bottom at the start of the game, there is no meta on Dominion as it exists on Rift because there aren't any lane positions. Team compositions are built wholly around how well champion kits mesh together. And a cohesive team will typically crush a team that's just a Hodge-podge of strong picks.
MEMEME6701 votesWere you even here for Season 1?
112J was picked up right after Riot lobotomized the roaming meta (111JR) which was in the early Winter, well before Worlds.
Aside from sending one person bottom at the start of the game, there is no meta on Dominion as it exists on Rift because there aren't any lane positions. Team compositions are built wholly around how well champion kits mesh together. And a cohesive team will typically crush a team that's just a Hodge-podge of strong picks.
You're correct here on your first point, I was wrong to phrase it as 112J. However, although that was discovered, NA never on its own discovered the 11(adc+support)J.
Which, oddly enough, merges well enough into your next point. There being no set lane positions doesn't matter, in the previous example NA couldn't on its own discover the best synergistic format for roles, so it's preposterous to assume a much smaller group of people will in dominion.
's wrong. Mobility is quite strong, yes. Just as strong as quite a few other things. Solid CC and reach are both potent. Durability is great because it means a champion can stall longer until their team arrives. AoE wombos can decisively end fights and lead to 5caps. Had an absolutely beautiful one a few weeks back with Nami, Wukon, Ez, and MF. Resulted in a 5cap and won the game by 10 minutes in.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure why your anecdotal evidence is supposed to prove a point, or what point.
Rebonack1 votesYou're correct here on your first point, I was wrong to phrase it as 112J. However, although that was discovered, NA never on its own discovered the 11(adc+support)J.
You're still full of shit.
ADC - no-farm Support was specifically what supplanted the Roam meta because regardless of who you stuck in bottom lane they got pimp-slapped by the Corki/Janna duo or whoever you felt like fielding down there. Roam collapsed because a 1v2 against a strong ADC with solid Support backup was untenable. EU didn't show it to NA in Worlds. It was already a thing by March or so if memory serves. Months before World's rolled around.
The main difference between the EU and NA metas in Season 1 was that NA was much more team-fight focused while EU centered around Poke/disengage and split pushing particularly with TF.
It took about eight months from ranked being released for people to find the ideal lane positions. Team compositions, however, have been largely mercurial and have shifted with the game's over-all balance. Because of the five lane positions the range of team compositions that are viable are sharply limited on Summoner's Rift.
Dominion doesn't have that issue because it has two lane positions, not five. Bottom and everyone else.
Which, oddly enough, merges well enough into your next point. There being no set lane positions doesn't matter, in the previous example NA couldn't on its own discover the best synergistic format for roles, so it's preposterous to assume a much smaller group of people will in dominion.
Your example is wrong, though. And it's a faulty analogy. Because the game kicks off as a 4v4 top there are always going to be counters and counter-counters to various types of team composition. Because objectives don't favor any specific champion archetype, nothing is shoe-horned in. In a Draft Pick environment your only concerns are synergizing with your team and countering the enemy team's composition.
You're stuck thinking that Dominion is like Summoner's Rift. It isn't.
At all.
And that is why you fail.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure why your anecdotal evidence is supposed to prove a point, or what point.
I dunno. Over five thousand of games of experience vs a guy talking out his ass? The examples you bring up are wrong. Your whole argument is vacuous. We might have fewer players, yes. But our games aren't tainted by snowballing and we regularly grind our way through five to ten times as many team fights and skirmishes as the average game of Rift.
'Oh but it took Rift players so long to figure things out!'
We had four top one bottom revive only final destination nailed down within six months of the map being released. What kind of champion is best bottom? Anyone who can hold it against ganks and/or crush the enemy laner. What comp is best top? Whichever one counters what the enemy team picked. That's all there is to it.
MEMEME6702 votesYou're still full of shit.
ADC - no-farm Support was specifically what supplanted the Roam meta because regardless of who you stuck in bottom lane they got pimp-slapped by the Corki/Janna duo or whoever you felt like fielding down there. Roam collapsed because a 1v2 against a strong ADC with solid Support backup was untenable. EU didn't show it to NA in Worlds. It was already a thing by March or so if memory serves. Months before World's rolled around.
If I'm full of shit I apologize, as it was never my intention to be. My memory is spotty though. However, I do remember something about the meta being innovated by the europeans, and that innovation becoming the na meta as soon as it was introduced.
Dominion doesn't have that issue because it has two lane positions, not five. Bottom and everyone else.
I've been more-or-less ignoring this up until now. mb.
Because the game kicks off as a 4v4 top there are always going to be counters and counter-counters to various types of team composition.
This isn't true. It's completely possible for an optimal team comp to emerge that simply has no counter. One may not exist right now, but with balance changes one may in the future. There's nothing inherently stopping it from happening.
Because objectives don't favor any specific champion archetype, nothing is shoe-horned in.
I don't know about this. Any of the current widely-used archetypes, sure. But most archetypes are somewhat (if not completely) subjective. And it's clear that the objectives favour some champions, for example, defending a point is much easier as Kog'Maw than as Tryndamere.
But our games aren't tainted by snowballing
Snowballing isn't inherently bad.
What kind of champion is best bottom? Anyone who can hold it against ganks and/or crush the enemy laner. What comp is best top? Whichever one counters what the enemy team picked. That's all there is to it.
Sure. But unless champions are balanced EXTREMELY well, which I highly doubt, there's going to be an optimal set of them that outclass others to some degree. Maybe not in every way, or in every possible teamcomp imaginable, but there are champs that are better than others. There are also teamcomps that are better than others (maybe not in specific this-vs-that comp matchups, but better as in easier to pick into, harder to counter effectively, etc).
Rebonack3 votesIf I'm full of shit I apologize, as it was never my intention to be. My memory is spotty though. However, I do remember something about the meta being innovated by the europeans, and that innovation becoming the na meta as soon as it was introduced.
Well and fine if its just faulty memory. I have a thing about spreading misinformation. Suffice to say, this wasn't a thing that popped up from EU. In fact, in a thread that popped up on the old boards while Support/ADC was really cementing itself a Rioter dropped in to mention that they had been running comps like that in their internal play tests for the past several months.
Doubt I could find the thread again, but I figure if Riot's handful of testers were able to find the optimal lane positions despite being a pretty small group of folks then the Dominion player base, which is comparatively larger, should be able to do just fine.
This isn't true. It's completely possible for an optimal team comp to emerge that simply has no counter. One may not exist right now, but with balance changes one may in the future. There's nothing inherently stopping it from happening.
This is possible. It is also possible that the universe is in fact made of chocolate pudding and our senses are lying to us. Simply because there exists some chance that a thing may be does not mean that a thing is. Given how many moving parts League has, I strongly doubt there's such a thing as an unbeatable team comp.
I don't know about this. Any of the current widely-used archetypes, sure. But most archetypes are somewhat (if not completely) subjective. And it's clear that the objectives favour some champions, for example, defending a point is much easier as Kog'Maw than as Tryndamere.
Taking objectives is champion neutral. But some champions are certainly better at defending points than others. Of course, defending a point isn't always the best plan. Sometimes you're better off falling back and finding somewhere else to attack.
Snowballing isn't inherently bad.
Sure. Some games snowball (Chess) others do not (Baseball). But in a game like League, snowballing is the direct cause of quite a bit of toxic player behavior. It also obscures the raw mechanical strength of champions. Because players in Dominion are on more or less equal footing, it is much easier to get a feel for relative champion power.
Sure. But unless champions are balanced EXTREMELY well, which I highly doubt, there's going to be an optimal set of them that outclass others to some degree. Maybe not in every way, or in every possible teamcomp imaginable, but there are champs that are better than others. There are also teamcomps that are better than others (maybe not in specific this-vs-that comp matchups, but better as in easier to pick into, harder to counter effectively, etc).
I will agree with this statement, however. Some champions are stronger than others on Dominion. But that's true regardless of what map you're talking about.
FantasySniper5 votesDude, I haven't played Dominion in a while and even I know he's right.
Ult-less champs are far and few between. Teleports are only powerful because of how they ensure back-capping, but are still prone to being collapsed on even if they don't teleport in enemy territory. Hypermobility only matters if you have to run, because objectives can be easily capped when they aren't present and teamfighting starts as soon as the game does.
The only champions that are trash are the ones reliant on hyper-scaling or traps because the games are shorter and the map so much more open.
The only meta is that at the start of the game, one goes bot while another captures the side and the rest go top. Even back when they did pseudo-competitive Dominion matches, the pick/bans weren't considered unhealthy (Except for Kassadin and Nidalee, who were notorious offenders back in the day) because you could just as easily counter them with anything you wanted.
PHoToS9998 votesThe original reply attacks his basis of knowledge regarding Dominion, which is to say, his experience. Anyone who has ever been around competitive dominion for any length of time should know iPooUnicorns. He's one of the big few in Dominon. In fact, he's one of the few names I even remember from my stint playing Dominion seriously, aside from Sauron, who made the best tier lists. CHEESECAKE ALL OVER THE CEILING!!!
But on the other point, the meta was actually very much experimented with. While the normal meta for lower level play was "secure three, never give them up," the sheer amount of experimentation in composition was incredible. Not to mention, the revive meta was so pushed by the community, MWAB made revive into a trinket. But the bot lane was so ridiculously good for experimentation. I was able to take Warwick solo lane in dominion. I didn't always win, but he actually could lane and not be painful to play, or play against. AD Malzahar was birthed in dominion. If not for Dominion, AD Malz jungle wouldn't be a thing. Hell, AP Alistar works in Dominion. Everything works in dominion. Dominion was made for making everything work. Not only does it work though, it's fluid. Doesn't work? Change it right in the middle of the game.
And on the point of "outright broken," there was a real reason most tournaments made special rules to ban out certain champs, or gave each team six bans instead of only three.
If anyone in this topic deserves to be listened to about wtf dominion is about, it's iPooUnicorns.
MEMEME6702 votesIf anyone in this topic deserves to be listened to about wtf dominion is about, it's iPooUnicorns.
You've missed my biggest point. Nobody in the dominion community deserves to be listened to about the absolute balance of dominion.
The dominion community simply can't stress the strategic limits of dominion nearly as well as the SR community can, so you're going to see fairly lax metagames, like the one IPU speaks of, where things appear balanced because the small imbalances aren't being constantly and consistently exploited, or because larger imbalances are simply being overlooked.
PHoToS9995 votesBut essentially what you're saying is "Nobody can know, so we can't really talk about it." Which isn't good. We should be trying to get people to discuss dominion, not stop discussing.
It Hertz When IP2 votesMeanwhile Nocturne got maybe five ults a game if you were lucky, though with his ult CD change from a few patches ago that might be better now.
Rebonack6 votes[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5hE3OyOg,comment-id=000000020001,timestamp=2016-02-02T03:05:56.808+0000)
Meanwhile Nocturne got maybe five ults a game if you were lucky, though with his ult CD change from a few patches ago that might be better now.
Noc is a very powerful bottom laner. The amount of pressure he can exert there is unreal.
Gene Freakz2 votesSummoner's Rift: Lane phase combined with snowballing means one guy can totally lose the game for you 15 minutes in, leading to toxic team-mate blaming.
^ This
MrWasjig33 votesOf course it is. Why? Because nobody fucking plays it. And without anyone playing it, nothing can be unbalanced because nobody is using anything on it.
TheHobbits20 votesWhat is this "Dominion" you speak of? We have no such thing here on OCE.
rtbf22561824111 votesSome servers don't have it, indeed. It's a game mode on a separate map but it looks pretty old and very few people sometimes play on it. The queue times are 10+minutes. It revolves around capturing points and such. Did you have "Ascension"? That mode was made on "Crystal Scar" where Dominion takes place.
TheHobbits9 votesI must apologize for leaving out my usual sarcastic undertone under my post.
I've been with League since the ye' olde days and moved from NA server to OCE when it first came out. Yes we got better ping and less lag, but at what cost? No Dominion outright and 3v3 is only up on weekends.
Monkey D Luffy3 votescry
No flash no life17 votesDominion = team of 5 bots queue'ing together, facing another team of 5 bots.
Ariel the Cruel11 votesThat's only until you get your elo higher. Then it's 2 bots VS 2 bots and 1 hour queues.
Sire Hippington7 votesi'm playing at a rather high elo in dominion, and i haven't seen a single bot within 5 years so far the qze times aren't as high either, though 5-10 min surely aren't short.
Teklm11 votesHere's a better idea, how about you prove yourself right. You haven't made a proper argument. What are we supposed to argue against and disprove?
iPooUnicorns3 votesOkay here's my argument:
Riot has hardly done anything to Dominion ever since ManWolfAxeBoss was reassigned. On the contrary, Riot has made constant changes to Summoners Rift since it was released.
Therefore Dominion is more balanced.
Nahara2 votesBut that's not which is more balanced, that's just "which has received more changes"...
DarthSpectrum9 votesI would agree with you, but my friends have roped me into play 5 v 5 Dominion before, and it really isn't as balanced as SR. If anything, I would argue that it is more imbalanced. SR just has a well-established meta, so players know how to counter mediocre picks with strong picks. If players were serious about Dominion, the meta champion pool might just be even smaller than SR's.
For one, bruisers and mobile champions are extremely strong on that map. Champions such as Udyr with good MS can get to the pylons and buffs faster. Bruisers such as Volibear work well with the lower income on that mode, and is extremely difficult to contest against for a pylon.
I remember one game where my friends and I queued for fun on Dominion, and we got destroyed by an experienced 5 man team both champion wise and gameplay wise.
Poske3 votesI would agree with you, but my friends have roped me into play 5 v 5 Dominion before, and it really isn't as balanced as SR. If anything, I would argue that it is more imbalanced. SR just has a well-established meta, so players know how to counter mediocre picks with strong picks. If players were serious about Dominion, the meta champion pool might just be even smaller than SR's.
For one, bruisers and mobile champions are extremely strong on that map. Champions such as Udyr with good MS can get to the pylons and buffs faster. Bruisers such as Volibear work well with the lower income on that mode, and is extremely difficult to contest against for a pylon.
I remember one game where my friends and I queued for fun on Dominion, and we got destroyed by an experienced 5 man team both champion wise and gameplay wise.
Actually those 2 champions are kinda bad there They even have trouble interupting you when you are taking a objective without risking to much
Quinn is to strong there Diana is quite scary
Timewinder8 votesno it isn't lmao
Gapybo5 votesHonestly dominion is pretty decent at the moment. It's so much better than at release and it's sad it still has such a negative reputation. It's a really fun map, basically constant fighting and no boring early farming phase.
SKOBODO4 votesDominion's current balance issues are more related to items than champions. I see two obvious issues: Poor anti-stealth items (which, granted, is more frustrating than it is unbalancing) and poor marksmen items (which mostly makes a class of champion a bit undertuned but still viable).
Dominion is fairly balanced right now. I'd like to see some small item changes (better anti-stealth itemization and better ADC items), but aside from that there's not that much that needs to be done.
Conncept4 votesTo be fair dominion was always closer to balanced than the boards and developers believed it to be, enforced scaling will do that. Nine tenths of SRs balancing problems are because of gold and level scaling, and scaling of exposure to allies and teammates. Two problems Dominion doesn't have since there is no way to outfarm the passive gold and experience gain, and both grouping up and splitting are done in response to enemy and ally action instead of whether or not you have farming to do or passively spawning objectives to contest.
Rendarkan2 votesARAM is more balanced than either Dominion or Summoners Rift.
LatetotheRace9 votesOh boy, I dun spent 5 minutes or so forming this post lel.
Rendarkan3 votesObviously the level of sarcasm is too strong for some people...
Anu3isII1 votesUmmm... Many champions are considered too weak to play on that map? I mean... if you play an immobile champion that doesn't bring anything powerful, you could pick any other champion xD
Rebonack4 votesUmmm... Many champions are considered too weak to play on that map? I mean... if you play an immobile champion that doesn't bring anything powerful, you could pick any other champion xD
That description includes Draven and Thresh.
...and that's about it.
They're covered under the 'champions with stacking mechanics not tuned for Dominion are bad for Dominion' clause. Which could probably be fixed by giving their passives Dominion specific buffs.
Anu3isII1 votesNot only those two...
In general, Dominion is a map where Bruisers and Assassins shine, and the other picks are considered "weak" or "trolls"
For example, 50% of the times people ask me why do I pick an ADC instead of a Bruiser. I met many people who said we will lose just because we have AN ADC in the WHOLE team. And when you look at ADC-s, the best ones on Dominion will always be Miss Fortune, Sivir and a well played Caitlyn. They are safe, they have high mobility, and good long range poke to disrupt enemies captures. They also are great at protecting towers. The other ADC-s have their strengths, but from my point of view they don't really cover their weaknesses on Dominion.
Serika Zero2 votesMobility, Sivir and MF???????? You sure you ain't talking about Corki and Ezreal?
Hello I am Bird3 votesThey have mobility via ms boosts.
Sivir ult and mf w passive.
Anu3isII2 votesYup, thanks for pointing that out. Mobility doesn't have to be a blink or a dash to be effective.
The big thing about Miss Fortune is that she practically has Mobi Boots from the start of the game. Combine it with the long ranges her E and her Ult offer, she can be a pretty big nuisance if she protects a Tower.
Sivir instead is powerful when she wants to engage, because she can make her whole Team jump right into the Tower Defenders, or she can keep her Ultimate for a disengage. Her Boomerang's range combined with her Passive and her Spell Shield make her overall a pretty safe champion to play.
About Corki and Ezreal... They have a long Cooldown dash/blink, and because of that, they can't really use them randomly. So they are immobile in terms of Map Movement. What I also dislike about them is the fact that they don't work with the classical Attack Speed items for ADC-s, leaving me only with Trinity Force (which isn't cheap) and Boots as choices for Movement Speed. Their base Movement Speed is the lowest too...
Rebonack3 votesYup, thanks for pointing that out. Mobility doesn't have to be a blink or a dash to be effective.
The big thing about Miss Fortune is that she practically has Mobi Boots from the start of the game. Combine it with the long ranges her E and her Ult offer, she can be a pretty big nuisance if she protects a Tower.
Sivir instead is powerful when she wants to engage, because she can make her whole Team jump right into the Tower Defenders, or she can keep her Ultimate for a disengage. Her Boomerang's range combined with her Passive and her Spell Shield make her overall a pretty safe champion to play.
About Corki and Ezreal... They have a long Cooldown dash/blink, and because of that, they can't really use them randomly. So they are immobile in terms of Map Movement. What I also dislike about them is the fact that they don't work with the classical Attack Speed items for ADC-s, leaving me only with Trinity Force (which isn't cheap) and Boots as choices for Movement Speed. Their base Movement Speed is the lowest too...
MF is pretty great. Sivir is okay.
Ezreal is almost always built Blue or AP with 45% CDR, so the cooldown on his blink is next to non-existent. Both builds often boast most damage done in a given game.
Corki is good, but the lack of Essence Reaver really hurts him. Riot really needs to add the BF Sword items to Dominion. And a Hextek Sweeper boot enchantment. Seriously.
Kholdstare133 votesEzreal is almost always built Blue or AP with 45% CDR, so the cooldown on his blink is next to non-existent. Both builds often boast most damage done in a given game.
What? Dom Ez without a triforce is blasphemy. (but yeah of course you max CDR). Mura and CDR doesn't make him blue. It just makes him burst super hard.