This is the first time I've actually agreed with the boards on the status of tanks

LegacyDAP·Jun 27, 2017·3 votes·457 views

It's not even like they're still terrible, but they're literally just not good compared to bruisers. When you have a bruiser such as: Riven, Fiora, Renekton, Jarvan, Kled, etc. who just build Black Cleaver and Tiamat into tank it literally just makes them better than a tank at all stages of the game. They have enough CC to help in fights, stupid good wave clear, lots of innate tankiness and damage, better early game. Arguably the only good tank is Galio right now and that's because he's got all of this plus damage (unless they nerfed it). Galio is a great example of how a tank should be balanced so they're able to deal with early game bruisers by having the bonus of better roaming and waveclear, with the downside of no damage to win trades without jungler.

26 Comments

RewtJun 27, 20176 votes

Galio is a bad example. Galio does way too much damage. same with Zac.

Tanks should have to work with their team to do things. They arent 1v1 champs.

RalanrJun 27, 20175 votes

Except they need kill pressure for laning and clear speed in the jungle.

Their damage should fall off, but they need some damage to stop them from automatically farming under tower.

RewtJun 27, 20173 votes

Being able to trade is 1 thing. being able to do over 1/2 someones HP with a Q E Auto as a tank at level 3 is a little much.

and Zac does too much damage for the CC he has. If he didnt have as much CC the damage wouldnt be a problem, but because he does a ton of damage and a ton of CC it makes him a little over the top.

LegacyDAPJun 27, 20171 votes

Pretty much this, Galio's damage early should be a little nerfed, and it should fall off harder. Base damage early should be high compared to it's later, but instead Riot makes it like +30 every level put into it for base dmg or something. Just for example.

ParoeJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much this, Galio's damage early should be a little nerfed, and it should fall off harder. Base damage early should be high compared to it's later, but instead Riot makes it like +30 every level put into it for base dmg or something. Just for example.

Problem with galio is that his Q is essentially a three part ability, and if you get hit just right (which isnt hard to do) then you get TWO wings of damage + the tornado. The ability needs to be less like a diana Q and more like his old tornado; a line shot that moves foreward.

You could easily make it so he does a blast of wind foreward that knocks minions out of the way and, if it hits a champion or collides with a wall, turns into a tornado that deals a %HP DoT.

Big LincolnJun 27, 20171 votes

the problem is making tanks innately tanky instead of buying their durability

when you give them that + high CC it's unreasonable they should also have damage

early tank designs, if they had steroids at all, usually needed to scale with them, or they were temporary and only flat resists. also they had less CC

RalanrJun 27, 20172 votes

Making tanks inherently tanky just encourages them to build damage.

Big LincolnJun 27, 20172 votes

Galio Poppy are innately tanky. in addition to that they have pretty spammable damage spells (% damage, too) and they scale pretty decently. they've also been big problems

Sion isn't really that tanky to start with and has to work up towards it with items, same for sejuani before her rework, which is what makes/made it fine that they have damage, and they haven't really been common problems.

ParoeJun 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87TaypsO,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T02:08:05.504+0000)

are innately tanky. in addition to that they have pretty spammable damage spells (% damage, too) and they scale pretty decently. they've also been big problems

isn't really that tanky to start with and has to work up towards it with items, same for sejuani before her rework, which is what makes/made it fine that they have damage, and they haven't really been common problems.

Galio and poppy are bruisers, which is why they have such high damage and bonuses to tank stats. Its so they can purchase more damage.
Sion is.... sort of a bruiser? If his base stats werent nerfed to hell in the update he would actually be a meta tank.

Big LincolnJun 27, 20175 votes

they're tanks.

ParoeJun 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87TaypsO,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T02:12:02.902+0000)

they're tanks.

Havent we argued this before recently? Theyre bruisers. Because bruisers have high base damage, strong CC, good scaling, and make better use of tanky items than actual tanks do.

Big LincolnJun 27, 20173 votes

tanks have high base damage and scaling is variable. poppy's scaling is nothing special, galio's is broken. but both are intended as and built as full tanks; any damage is an off-build.

make better use of tanky items than actual tanks do.

not true at all, tanks have defensive scalings. a bruiser might have an HP ratio on a shield like Vi, or % missing health healing, but tanks will usually scale off HP or resists for shields, steroids and sometimes damage

ParoeJun 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87TaypsO,comment-id=000000000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-27T02:20:08.307+0000)

tanks have high base damage and scaling is variable. poppy's scaling is nothing special, galio's is broken. but both are intended as and built as full tanks; any damage is an off-build.

not true at all, tanks have defensive scalings. a bruiser might have an HP ratio on a shield like Vi, or % missing health healing, but tanks will usually scale off HP or resists for shields, steroids and sometimes damage

Galio always builds some AP. He might sell it off, but he builds the AP. Poppy has 12% max HP damage on a 410 base damage ability (I think its 205 base at rank 5?) thats easy to hit and always buys a sheen item, plus she has high base AD. They also have flat good scaling and itemization.

Leona? Scales with AP and resistances. Low base damage, no built in waveclear. Braum? Scales with HP and resistances. Low base damage. No built in wave clear. Alistar? Scales with AP. Low base damage. Low waveclear. Good burst combo if building lichbane. Rammus? Scales with AP and armor. Average base damage. waveclear in the form of a massive self-slow and ultimate. Malphite? Scales with AP and armor. Good base damage. Decent waveclear. Major weakness is immobility outside ultimate. Nautilus? Scales with AP and health. Low base damage. Good, if costly, waveclear. Major weakness is largely conditional mobility and high mana costs.

Poppy? Scales with AD. Galio? Scales with AP. Gragas? Scales with AP. Sion? Scales with AD. Renekton? Scales with AD. Mundo? technically scales with AP and HP but his main sources of damage actually scale with the enemy and his HP. Gnar? AD. Lee-sin? AD. Nunu? AP. Has no waveclear outside ultimate though. Maokai? AP. Nasus? AP. These are all bruisers. They have good scaling, good base damage, and are good at 1v1s at almost every stage of the game. Tanks are not despite usually having only slightly more CC and utility.

RalanrJun 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Havent we argued this before recently? Theyre bruisers. Because bruisers have high base damage, strong CC, good scaling, and make better use of tanky items than actual tanks do.

That is not at all what bruisers are. I don't know how the hell you got to that concept.

Bruisers are just a catch all term for durable fighters. Darius was basically a bruiser.

ParoeJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That is not at all what bruisers are. I don't know how the hell you got to that concept.

Bruisers are just a catch all term for durable fighters. was basically a bruiser.

Because renekton defined the term....? Renekton has;

High base stats
Good CC
Good base damage
Good scaling

Theres a reason the renekton bar existed in the first place and why, for a time, bruisers were held to that bar.

ParoeJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Making tanks inherently tanky just encourages them to build damage.

Depends on how you scale them. Tanks who scale with resistances and HP will never benefit much from AD/AP.

I, for example, strongly support this champion concept https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/PlfI3Qyl-shalaeon-the-spirit-of-iron simply because it does the tank job but will NEVER be overbearing due to its heavy reliance on resistances and strong team-based utility with meaningful decisions in gameplay. You cant get 500AP and 200/200 resistance after all. Thats kind of the reason why most real tanks scale with AP; they can never be successful as tanks WHILE doing damage. Bruisers are the exact opposite because by design theyre meant to be successful as tanks while doing damage. Bruisers often have better base stats by far than actual tanks for that exact reason...

LegacyDAPJun 27, 20171 votes

I know, if Galio didn't have that damage he'd be fine IMO. I thought I stated that in the post. My bad.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 27, 20172 votes

Even without damage... Zac would be strong...

CalabokJun 27, 20173 votes

downvoted. tanks and bruisers are different

LegacyDAPJun 27, 20171 votes

downvoted, read what the post is about.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 27, 20173 votes

Arguably the only good tank is Galio right now and that's because he's got all of this plus damage (unless they nerfed it).

Stop spread ur BS. Zac Sion Sejuani Maokai Gragas Malphite are good... even atm.

When you have a bruiser such as: Riven, Fiora, Renekton, Jarvan, Kled, etc. who just build Black Cleaver and Tiamat into tank it literally just makes them better than a tank at all stages of the game.

Its not true, and they don't have the same job

LegacyDAPJun 27, 20171 votes

Zac is broken atm, Sejuani is also kinda overloaded atm. Sion has a terribly small pick rate, most of those players are one tricks, but yeah, he's not awful and in a pretty balanced state. Maokai is in a decent state, not particularly good though. Gragas is also pretty bad and more of a situational pick. Malphite is the most dog shit out of all of those top laners. Gets bullied in this meta too easily and doesn't really become useful until you get Iceborn and Sunfire.

Certain tanks are really strong, the rest are terrible. The itemization for tanks is pretty awful when they constantly have to rush sunfire so they don't get shoved in and can start to roam to be useful in the game.

Gloom ShroomJun 27, 20172 votes

Zac/Galio/Sejuani/Maokai are all very good, meta tanks who are usually Pick/Ban in many elos. Tanks aren't in either a good or a bad spot, they're right in the middle IMO.

LegacyDAPJun 27, 20171 votes

Because they're overloaded with damage and CC. They also all happened to be reworked with tools like that. The other tanks aren't that good.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 27, 20171 votes

Sion