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Late Game Hyper Carries Thread

Kloqdq··21 votes·6,904 views

Tristana KogMaw Twitch Jinx Vayne

Probably missing one or two but can we just talk about these champions and the goal of the "Late Game Hyper Carry"?

In my mind, this group of Marksmans has to be to most annoying and I guess just lackluster type of class in league? Consider it like this; every hyper carry at the end of the day can be boiled down into this.

Just steroids and auto them from stupid range.

The only one of these off the top of my head that breaks this to a degree is Vayne having to tumble and duck and dive out of invisibility and shit. Other than that champions like Tristana, Kog'maw, Twitch, etc lose almost all the stuff that does make them interesting;

Tristana throwing bombs and jumping around like a mad-yordle, Twitch ambushing everyone and giving them a not so pleasant surpise, Kog'maw throwing-up yesterday's lunch at his foes, etc

All that gets shoved to the side in favour of just firing loads of auto-attacks at the enemy from a stupid range and killing everyone that can't touch you in the 1-2 seconds they see you. Now I don't know about you guys but honestly from a design prospective, this class clashes with everything Riot tries to do with so many other classes while also just being not fun to play with or against (in my opinion).

The class is just so inherently flawed and whenever we fall back into these champions being viable, and we always have since I've been playing, they run the show and just make the game the most annoying and frustrating experience around. They aren't interesting to really play for the most part since all the cool aspects of their kit are boiled down to "steroids and auto them from stupid range" and they are annoying to play against just because they "steroids and auto them from stupid range". Maybe a hyper carry can work in league but I have yet to see one that doesn't make me want to hate my life. The only ones that sort of work well are Jinx and Kindred and maybe now Vayne (Haven't see the new vayne yet) and even then those champions have issues.

The late game hyper carry fantasy and design is a painful one and I honestly don't think it should be in league. Maybe that's just me and others disagree. Let me know what you think because I'm up for debate on the topic.

EDIT - This post only focuses on Hyper Carries. Not late game champions. Hyper carries are "Late game but better". Just so people are on the same page.

76 Comments

It Hertz When IP5 votes

What the hell is Kindred doing on that list? I have NEVER seen them called a hypercarry, ever.

Kloqdq2 votes

I'd say a lot of the changes made to her aimed to push her to that fantasy, via infinity scaling AR and just typical raw steroids that similar in that marksman class get. That's why I included her in this list, but I'd say it isn't a perfect one. I may have left out a handful of marksman or something. It was more or less put there to put people on the same page as to what that "class" or fantasy was in game.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

The infinitely scaling AR (theoretically) makes her a late game champ. That is NOT the same as a hyper carry.

Kloqdq3 votes

Hey, that's just how I see it. Not saying I'm right on that one. Just using her as an example of how that archetype typically works since she can be seen as a hyper carry if the stars align just right.

You are probably more right though.

bbQsauçe1 votes

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It Hertz When IP1 votes

Hypercarrys are usually late-game champs, but not all late game champs are hypercarries.

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Late game champions is a broad category for any champions who have a weaker early game, but a much stronger later game (for example, assassins). Their biggest desire is to make a game drag on long enough to out-scale enemies. Some tanks are late-game as well, along with some bruisers. Veigar is a prime example of a late-game champion; LeBlanc would be another.

Hypercarries are late-game champions who are designed to dish out obscene amounts of damage to more than one target if left alone, potentially wiping entire teams, but their weakness is having little to no defensive options. They generally build as glass cannons and rely on teammates to keep them alive long enough to get that Pentakill. For the most part, I believe the classification of "hypercarry" is pretty much restricted to a handful of ADCs. If you look at their kits you can see the required steroids: Trist has insane tower-killing potential with her bomb, Twitch's ult lets his AAs pierce multiple targets in a line, Kog'Maw has %maxHP on-hit damage built into his kit, Jinx gains silly amounts of AS from her Q and waveclears like no one else, and Vayne is hands down one of the strongest dueling champions, able to 1v1 nearly everyone else on the roster and win.

Hence my arguing against labeling Kindred as a hypercarry. They are definitely a late-game champ, becoming a fairly strong ADC with enough stacks; Kindred lacks the high damage output of a hpercarry though, because they lack a strong steroid to give their damage output that required boost. MAYBE they used to have hypercarry potential, but once their passive stopped giving them %health damage per stack, they became unable to claim the hypercarry title.

Yaskamasandwich4 votes

Since day 1 I've hated the concept of a Hyper Carry. Before it was "farm farm farm and auto win." Or "denied farm and auto lose." It reduces the agency of everyone at certain points of the game. The hyper carry has no agency early game, and everyone else has no agency during late game. It reduces everyone to being one person's little bitch instead of them having impacts. The old "jugger'maw" or "DDDDRAAAAVEN!!!" strategies were dirty and hated back then for that reason.

It's dull and stupid to have a strategy based solely around a champion that can "1v5" concept. Much like how Fiora is having balancing issues being based around "can duel anyone" when there is a solo-like lane up top vulnerable to that concept. Jax was nerfed to the ground for that same concept.

It also helps the problem where Marksmen steal all late game power. There was a time where Jax, Nasus, and other tanky melee champions had late game power which brought some strategy. Brought hard decisions of whom you kill first, the late game bruiser or the marksmen. Now that their late game has been neutered, all late game is based upon which hyper carry you have. Which lead to the stupid "ADC20k17LUL" meme because no one wanted to deal with late game gods, I MEAN Marksmen, and so jungler was given their early game power to end the game fast. So now we are here with Marksmen being over buffed and hyper carries being our overlords. All because they have the only say for late game and might as well pick a Hyper carry that just activates steroids and hit you with an undodgeable attack to death with the best late game of all.

Kloqdq2 votes

Couldn't agree more there ^

Teridax684 votes

In most other MOBAs, hypercarries tend to distinguish themselves by having access to at least one effect that feels single-handedly capable of closing games. Steroids and statistical efficiency are but one subset of these effects. In League, however, stats really feel like the dominant factor, and I agree that hypercarries in that sense tend to feel more like empty vessels for items, rather than truly unique and distinct champions in their own right. Jinx, Kog'Maw and Vayne all have unique traits that play in their favor, but Tristana and Twitch I think tend to feel particularly generic, as a pretty significant portion of their power can be emulated through items.

I also agree that hypercarries as they currently exist clash heavily with Riot's design philosophy, particularly when it pertains to counterplay. Hypercarries are generally distinguished by their severe lack of counterplay when they get past a certain power threshold, and I don't think their weak early games (which are often not all that weak these days) can justify that either. I feel this particularly applies to marksman hypercarries, who I think are the only real hypercarries in the game right now, as non-marksmen hypercarries like Azir, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Nasus, and so on all tend to have more counterplay now at all stages of the game (and even so, many of these champions are still considered unhealthy due to their own insufficient interactivity). Hypercarries should be able to enjoy exceptionally high power when they do come online, but that power needs to be interactive, as it's not really fun to have these champions auto-win fight purely by dint of having more stats.

Early in League's history, the main idea behind hypercarries was to have champions like Master Yi or Twitch, whose kits are innately extremely weak and mostly incapable of doing anything unique, but who are so good at scaling off of items that they outdo most other champions past a certain stage. Nowadays, though, champions get to do more and crazier things, and don't (or at least shouldn't) rely on stats from items to truly express themselves. I do think the notion of a late-game carry is something worth keeping, but I feel there are far more interesting ways of expressing it than just steroids and stat amplifications. Just looking at non-marksmen, Karthus can kill the entire enemy team no matter where they are on the map, and Nasus can build up towards literally one-shotting champions and turrets. Even with champions like Trist or Twitch, the ability to blow up turrets and structures increasingly quick is perfect for a late-game champion, as is the ability to attack the entire enemy team at once. I feel it would help them out significantly if their steroids were made both more conditional and more unique, and if their kits were each reoriented around a clearer-defined fantasy, instead of offering just a general-purpose toolbox of reliable stats and effects.

Kloqdq3 votes

You are right in a lot of what you have to say. The idea of a Late game champion isn't a bad one. Many late game champion often find a strong place in their respective spot but still often have some form of counterplay that allows enemies to fight against them. There is a danger in these champion but at the core they still feel fair.

Hyper carries on the other hand I feel take a really large leap into the direction of being too powerful. The whole idea of that sub-class is basically, be the god of league now, with little interest in how that is achieved. Like you mentioned champions like Jinx, Kog'maw, Vayne have something around them that at the very least makes them more conditional and have a better taste of counterplay, even if they and many other hyper carries like to break that model from time to time. Someone like Twitch or Tristana are just too far in the wrong direction for my liking.

Late game champions themselves are often perfectly fine but it's once they start hopping towards hyper carry that I have an issue with. It just feels really bad that a lot of hyper carries do lose what makes them special and they get boiled down into a "take some roids and murderball"

Teridax683 votes

I definitely agree right now that hypercarries right now are flat-out too strong. I think there's an immense difference between having a great late game, and having a late game where most people can't do much against you unless you mess up. The fact that all of the game's current hardest-scaling hypercarries are all autoattack-based is, imo, no coincidence, as making a champion's power almost exclusively autoattack-based puts all of that power into something that is not very interactive.

In the end, I think it all comes down to agency: while it's okay for a champion to have a little agency at one stage of the game and more agency at another, there's a certain threshold past which it flat-out isn't fun for anyone involved. Riot themselves have taken steps to give marksmen more agency in the early game, by allowing them to make plays and be strong in the right situations early on. This makes it all the more perplexing to me as to why they wouldn't do the same to give more agency to the opponents of hypercarries in the late game, particularly since now it feels like the strength of hypercarries is disproportionate in relation to their early and mid games, which really aren't so bad anymore.

I also agree that the very distinction we have between carries (who are supposed to be late-game champions) and hypercarries (who are also late-game champions, except they scale even harder), and the fact that pretty much every current hypercarry belongs to the same class of champions, demonstrates a larger balance and design problem. While every champion should have their own scaling, right now it feels like some champions are guaranteed to outscale the rest no matter what, even when other champions make a greater effort to achieve their own late game power. This is a major reason why I dislike the notion of class-wide scalings, and I think so long as we hold onto the design principle that mages should all be mid-game champions, fighters early-game champions, marksmen late-game champions, etc., it's going to be difficult to allow individual champions to express their own power progression, and to keep carries from different classes on the same page.

Kloqdq2 votes

This is a major reason why I dislike the notion of class-wide scalings, and I think so long as we hold onto the design principle that mages should all be mid-game champions, fighters early-game champions, marksmen late-game champions, etc., it's going to be difficult to allow individual champions to express their own power progression, and to keep carries from different classes on the same page.

I couldn't agree more. I think a lot of the "class balancing" came around the start of the juggernaut period and up to the tank period with it being more of a thought experiment at the moment. Having a general idea of what a character's class can do is good but you need to break that mold from time to time to create newer and more interesting designs. Creating a formula is good for theory crafting and general stat collecting but to design interesting champions, especially after about 140, you need to bend the rules a bit.

Yaskamasandwich2 votes

{quoted}

I definitely agree right now that hypercarries right now are flat-out too strong. I think there's an immense difference between having a great late game, and having a late game where most people can't do much against you unless you mess up. The fact that all of the game's current hardest-scaling hypercarries are all autoattack-based is, imo, no coincidence, as making a champion's power almost exclusively autoattack-based puts all of that power into something that is not very interactive.

In the end, I think it all comes down to agency: while it's okay for a champion to have a little agency at one stage of the game and more agency at another, there's a certain threshold past which it flat-out isn't fun for anyone involved. Riot themselves have taken steps to give marksmen more agency in the early game, by allowing them to make plays and be strong in the right situations early on. This makes it all the more perplexing to me as to why they wouldn't do the same to give more agency to the opponents of hypercarries in the late game, particularly since now it feels like the strength of hypercarries is disproportionate in relation to their early and mid games, which really aren't so bad anymore.

I also agree that the very distinction we have between carries (who are supposed to be late-game champions) and hypercarries (who are also late-game champions, except they scale even harder), and the fact that pretty much every current hypercarry belongs to the same class of champions, demonstrates a larger balance and design problem. While every champion should have their own scaling, right now it feels like some champions are guaranteed to outscale the rest no matter what, even when other champions make a greater effort to achieve their own late game power. This is a major reason why I dislike the notion of class-wide scalings, and I think so long as we hold onto the design principle that mages should all be mid-game champions, fighters early-game champions, marksmen late-game champions, etc., it's going to be difficult to allow individual champions to express their own power progression, and to keep carries from different classes on the same page.

You sir hit the nail right on the head of every mark. Agency is so important, it's why people don't like facing CertainlyT's champions because they only allow certain agencies depending what champions you pick. It's also why Pantheon is in such a huge balance mess right now. He has total control and full agency early game then absolute none late game. That's not fun for anyone even the Pantheon mains when late game hits and might as well wait at the fountain as best strat.

Class power spike was never a huuuuge issue until Riot enforced it at patch 5.16. Before there were early game marksmen like Quinn, Lucian, Draven, Graves, and dropped off due to their kits. Their kits a mattered so playing them you could be different and have fun even when they were not meta. A master Quinn player could have beaten a good Caitlyn player even with Caitlyn being her counter. Tanks had Zac and Shen as early tanks (Shen's spikes depends on team comp and whom he is against so mostly early game in solo que). While Sejuani, Malphite, Rammus. And Maokai were hyper tanks with counters. Sejuani was more damage focused so weaken her before she gets to the carry, which gets harder but not impossible during late game. Malphite and Rammus hate mages and they screwed them up with AP and CC. Maokai required team coordination to pull off great moves. Fighters had Jax and Nasus as late game gods. One hit his faster but not as hard. One had infinity scaling that could out do even Viegar's due to being also tanky. But they were both neutered, sorry Nasus, you have no more balls.

Now with class power spikes everyone is the same. Pick the champion of same class with the better numbers. That's why you see the same champions over and over. They just have the best numbers. Kits, strategy, and team comp matter little now. Class power spikes are bad and throwing fun and balance out the window.

Edit: Spelling errors.

I Main Swain3 votes

ok while i will agree that late game carries are currently a problem i disagree with almost literally everything else you said. first of all even in that list they dont all aa from "stupid range". second, late game hyper carries are not just adc's Tryndamere Veigar to name a couple. i feel like late game carries as a concept is perfectly balanced and entirely interesting. have the skills and teamwork to get to your powerspike or work hard to shut down your opponents early game and take advantage of their low early/mid power. however, currently they really arent "late game" champions, they hit their power spikes not much later than anyone else, if any later, which is a big contributor to the 15 minute prison we currently are all inmates of. champions like tristana, vayne, twitch, veigar, etc really need to be curbed so their power spike doesnt come until actual late game

Ahris2 votes

Hyper carry invalidates many other champs. Riot should just make them mistake focused in power and weaken their strength late.

GrievousFetus2 votes

The thing with League is that if you stall long enough you will eventually make it to late game.

In DotA, you lose gold on kills, so enemies who play aggressively can keep the enemy hyper carry perpetually gold starved and make sure they potentially never hit their spike.

Kloqdq1 votes

Dota has a lot of things that league doesn't that would seem to improve on it's current state from what I see whenever Dota is mentioned XD

GrievousFetus2 votes

Honestly? The primary problem with League currently is that Carry = marksman. In DotA, carry = your win condition who needs the most farm but individually can be super unique. Second, is that in League there is not a lot of resources on the map. There are jungle creeps and lane creeps. Getting most of your lane minions is what's expected in League. In DotA the jungle is way bigger and a jungler isn't mandatory, one of the support's jobs is to stack up jungle camps to give to the carry. In League your top laner, ADC, and midlaner will all have similar CS, but in DotA you have farm priority, so your carry might have literally twice or more farm than anyone else on the team and the rest of the team helps facilitate that farm.

Basically in league a hypercarry farms lane creeps safely until they're full build, then wins. In DotA your teammates have to stack up jungle camps for you to mass farm that the enemy denies by stealing and then killing you can potentially undo your farming, and another thing is that DotA has huge luxury items that are SO expensive that you will never reach them by farming alone, you'll have to get kills to afford them.

Kloqdq1 votes

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I don't think in that regard there is any quick and easy fix to really making Marksmen a good class but not a mandatory carry. Whatever form that may look like is hard to say because if done incorrectly, you just make more problems. I'd personally like to see more fighters or mages be able to go bot lane but what that requires to make happen is hard to say.

GrievousFetus3 votes

see more fighters or mages be able to go bot lane

It's a change on an even larger scope than that. Bottom wouldn't necessarily be the "carry" lane. Another thing in DotA is that you cap out on skill ranks at level 15, but your level cap is level 25, which gives extra base stats in place of a skill point rank, like URF. So in DotA a hard carry or hyper carry might go in their equivalent of bot line, but a softer more mid game focused carry (think something more along the lines of Lucian) would go in mid lane for access to the most XP on the map to level up as fast as possible. So not only would you need a system where carry doesn't strictly mean marksman, you'd also need a system where carry doesn't specifically have to go bot lane, and bot lane wouldn't necessarily be a 2v2 lane.

I think if Rift Herald were stronger (and Riot didn't remove bot lane tower's early protection in combination with first brick to artificially force the 1-1-2-jg meta) you'd see more strategic diversity where an early game team would send their duo top lane to secure Herald, but a late game focused team would send their duo bot to secure drags.

Kloqdq1 votes

Yeah there is probably large scale work required to fix the problem but I am going to keep my fingers crossed they look into this around mid-season or next pre-season at the latest.

GrievousFetus2 votes

I think that SR is too set in stone at this point. Honestly dragon does a lot of polarizing and is why we have the 1-1-2-jg paradigm to begin with.

But you look at Twisted Treeline, and TT is actually at least a little dynamic. Currently it's got an ADC+support meta where they don't have a jungler but the ADC farms the jungle on the side, but for a long time there were multiple tanks on TT with a dedicated jungler.

Maybe if Player Unknown Battle Grounds or Fortnite does really well it'll scare Riot into finishing Magma Chamber. After all we suddenly got a ton of features the playerbase had wanted since beta all at the same time in Season 6, all because Overwatch came out and threatened League.

Kloqdq1 votes

Well they are adding a 1v1, 2v2 mode forever now so that at least shows they want to add more to the game.

TT is more dynamic in what it can do but I think that dynamic nature is a little too harmful for that mode since it's basically the issue I put above but on crack XD

Dragon and turrets are probably the best reasons why the map and it's positions are the way they are.

GrievousFetus1 votes

Yeah, that and the fact that the side lanes are perfectly symmetrical.

Kloqdq1 votes

That too. No idea how this kind of problem gets fixed but we'll just have to see. Probably never will but we'll see.

GrievousFetus5 votes

Well the thing is that Riot didn't see these as problems they saw these as solutions. League evolved from Dota 1 had some of the original devs and everything. the symmetrical lanes, the constant position paradigm, they're all intentional. Having identical lanes means your team doesn't have to argue and coordinate a game plan with constantly changing lane set ups, you don't get a team with a hyper carry in the suicide lane because you couldn't agree on whether or not your teammate was comfortable doing a trilane or whatever. Having set roles and set positions means that you can have a role queue, and it means that each player on a pro team plays a specific position, like a traditional sport.

Other aspects of League are meant to "solve problems" that DotA had as well. In DotA, you have to spend money on core utility items, and then after that you can start building big stat sticks. In League, almost every carry item is a big stat stick. In League your ADC rushes BF>zeal>IE, in DotA if you tried rushing Daedalus, the IE equivalent, you'd lose the match almost instantly because their damage items have huge power droughts caused by low components and huge combine costs plus you would deprive yourself of your utility items.

But now that League has mostly been solved, players are anxious for that same strategic diversity League originally sought to remove to facilitate its focus on mechanics over strategy.

Rebonack2 votes

Twitch and Vayne are the only two late game carries on that list.

The other three are all at their strongest mid-game. They don't actually hyper-scale.

Kloqdq2 votes

Kog'maw, Trist are the most classic examples of a hyper carry in the game. Jinx is bridging the gap but she is closer to a late game.

Basic idea of a hyper carry is just - massive range, loads of steroids, tons of damage.

Kog'maw gets passive shred, more damage and range. Trist range legit scales with levels and she has a massive AS steroid. Twitch ultimate gives him everything a hyper carry needs. Vayne is more of a tank shredder now but she still fits the bill.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Kog'maw, Trist are the most classic examples of a hyper carry in the game. Jinx is bridging the gap but she is closer to a late game.

Trist USED to be the classic hyper-carry before Riot remade her. Her power was shifted significantly toward mid game with her bomb and her attack speed both with and without steroid dropped massively. She also lost quite a bit of end-game attack range.

Kog has been most successful mid game (with a decent late game) at all points in his history except for one patch back in Season 1 where his W doubled his bonus AD and again during the Marksmen update when his W scaled with his total AD.

Kloqdq1 votes

Trist can still be considered one since her scaling range is still powerful enough and her bombs are massive. Her Q is still a giant AS steroid so yeah, Trist is still a pretty good hyper carry still.

Kog'maw has always been a hyper carry? His own gimmick is scale to late game and then 1v5. Protect the Kog comp is basically just hyper carry comp.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Trist can still be considered one since her scaling range is still powerful enough and her bombs are massive. Her Q is still a giant AS steroid so yeah, Trist is still a pretty good hyper carry still.

No. She isn't. She does not hyper-scale with game length. The champs who do consist of the various melee Skirmishers (Yi and friends), Twitch and Vayne, and Cho'Gath due to the health-scaling he gets. Everyone else drops off or levels off in the late game. Very few champions actually hyper-scale.

Kog'maw has always been a hyper carry? His own gimmick is scale to late game and then 1v5. Protect the Kog comp is basically just hyper carry comp.

No.

He has not.

Protect the Kog works because Kog comes online mid-game with two items and maxed W, which is about the time team-fights are starting in earnest. Because he comes online mid-game, he's a reliable source of damage for a team to be built around. You don't pick a hyper-sclaing champion (who's balanced at least) for a Protect the X comp. You pick them as a late game insurance policy.

Twitch is (and has been for a while now) a problem mainly because he's too strong early for how absurd he is late. This is partly due to his own tuning and partly because of how weak kill-lanes and bullies are.

jelite502 votes

umm.... as an adc main I'd say leave it the way it is... being an adc takes so much skill just because ONE miss step can literally lose you the game because anything can fucing one shot you or do hella dmg to you, try walking past a bush and getting 100-0 by basically any champion that lands a full rotation of abilities and if their an assasin OOOHHHHH you might as well spread those cheeks open and bow down. The adc role is at a good spot

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I wonder if this has to do with the type of champs you play?

I have never been that bothered by hyper carries, and I think part of that is that I like to play champs that can theoretically deal with them. When I lose to one of these on Swain, for instance, I often lose because my team doesn't help clean up after I succeed in killing the hyper-carry.

Late game, I will often die trying to kill them, but I will either kill them or get them very low, and it's the lack of coordination/follow-through that makes us lose. And that's a good trade against a late-game carry, more often than not. Thus, I don't see the champ design as being a huge problem.

Kloqdq2 votes

***Note I play mostly 3v3 which doesn't have nearly anyone play hyper carries unless they are high elo support meta players. Haven't play any Rift really since they became meta and then I play tanks.

My main issue with this sub-class of the Marksmen is that the champions we call hyper carries have so much more interesting things going on in their kit but they get boiled down to just outranging their opponents and shredding through teams. I call them the worst of their class because they lessen the better parts of the champions.

Tristana could be a really cool diving adc who wants to make big plays and dive in, even trying to insec people.

Twitch could stealth around and poison everyone, assassinating anyone he catches.

Kog'maw could be throwing up on his opponents from mega range and poking them out.

The problem happens when at the end of the day all these champions just ignore what makes them cool because they have some way to get super range and just auto the enemy way out of range. To me, the best parts of the champion get lost in this one aspect that always ends up happening with the hyper carry.

Kaìju1 votes

So can we make attack range a scaling stat? That would greatly nerf an ADCs early game and make them optional I think. With lower range stronger early game carries like Yi, Fiora, and probably others too could be played bot without being crushed by range, but the punishment for not ending the game is manifested much more in that marksmen would probably all scale to say 600 range minimum, but start the game at maybe 300 or 400 range. Would that be an option?

Kloqdq4 votes

I think the ability to scale with range is a really weird one. Tristana already kind of does that and I am not sure how good it is all round. I think technically it could work but then it creates a really weird dynamic in the game where everyone kind of needs that if they are ranged but the melees aren't apart of that and it would probably sport some weird shit happening since inherently, ranged champions are squishy so their range is apart of their base defences against melee champions. At 300/400 range it puts them at a LOT of damage and I could see Mages being the prime champions in the bot lane.

Though its really hard to say what the effects of that would be all round. Neat idea though!

Kaìju1 votes

I was just wondering since I know Gnar also has scaling attack range and was wondering if maybe with both him and Tristana as examples it could be done effectively.

Kloqdq1 votes

I think Tristana's passive is really outdated and apart of why we still consider her a late game/hyper carry. I am a big believer we should remove it and give her a new passive. Gnar is a very niche champion in the game and he does kind of follow his own set of rules pretty much.

Kaìju1 votes

Would it be better to maybe move Tristanas E passive to her normal passive? I kinda think her issue is that her E does so much damage for how much it can be spammed later. I go for the ER Runaans IE and the amount of AOE nuke she has is wild. I kinda think that's the issue, giving hyper carries burst tools.

Kloqdq1 votes

Yeah I would probably move the E passive to her passive and give it some slight adjustments. I'd ideally like to change her Q to be a little more active as well but I'm not sure on that. Hyper carries + burst are a massive no no in my mind. Twitch being a hyper carry assassin is a good example of why that's bad.

Kaìju1 votes

I think ADCs should scale kinda like fighters but with range in that they don't nuke people with crits or spells, they just have like 400 AD with high attack speed. Would that be a better way to do hyper carries?

Kloqdq1 votes

I mean that would work better to filling the role of a hyper carry. Vayne for example scales due to her Silver Bolts and with the removal of her Q crit she is more centered around dishing out lots of auto attacks to nuke tanky people. So some way that pushes their big damage numbers down while increasing their attack speed to instead focus on lots of damage over a long period of time from lots of damage to a short period of time would make sense.

Dengeden1 votes

"This class boils down to" is a terrible argument.

"Tanks boil down to CC, AoE damage and sometimes %damage." "Mages boil down to waveclear and/or singletarget burst." "Bruisers are steroids, splitpushing and tp flanks."

I don't know what to even debate here, ADCs and hypercarries are a class that needs to position and farm incredibly well for the entire game and there are multiple ways to shut them down before that happens.

Kloqdq1 votes

Let me put it like this.

Any class of champions that can basically describe as, "We are late game but just better than everyone else" isn't really a healthy class of champions. No matter how strong a champion or class is at a certain point in the game, they should still have good counter play and weaknesses.

When the hyper carry is basically defined as being the best champions in the game once they reach their max power, I think it's kind of bad.

Then you have to consider the issue that these champions have these cool gimmicks and tricks in their kits, but they lose all those cool parts to just right clicking from big ranges. You aren't jumping around and trying to dive into the fight as tristana anymore because safely right clicking from 680 range and jumping away is the most powerful means of winning. You aren't going to be spitting spells from massive distances and poking out the enemy with kog because it's just better to right click and press W. The better aspects of these champions get lost in translation because to be hyper carries, they kind of have to do this. Only Vayne breaks that mold and she is probably the best example of a good hyper carry.

That's more or less my point. These champions are interesting and fun, but what makes them that way gets thrown out the window at 6 items because it's just not as effective.

Dengeden1 votes

Firstly, wack-a-mole Kog'maw isn't a good thing, it just isn't. This "if it doesn't kill me or only does it very slowly, it can't be bad" mindset that's prevalent here needs to stop.

Secondly, Trist would need to be built like a bruiser for offensive playstyle to work late game.

Thirdly, you're kind of implying that Twitch breaks the mold here too. He does both the offensive and defensive thing.

And lastly, again, there are so many things that can happen before late game hits and if they are interesting before that point, they're almost perfect, aren't they.

Kloqdq1 votes

Expect this now starts happening a lot earlier and the current meta heavily supports that, pushing the class over the edge. I am really not a fan of this design of a class just being defined as, I can 1v5 with my 4 supports.

Dengeden1 votes

Why not? What's wrong with synergy? Why do you people want the game to be "everyone does the same amount of damage, god I hate ADCs"? Why not just add more disruption to the game so this 4 supports thing doesn't work out as easily?

Kloqdq1 votes

I want more roles to have more of an impact. You know how people get tired of seeing that Lee'Sin every game so they ban it out? That's adcs. They have been meta for 7-8 years and I'd just like to see more variety. I don't hate adcs, other than the hyper carries, but I would like to see something different from time to time.

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