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Garen E rework idea

Big Lincoln··3 votes·381 views

thought this over for a couple days, figured I could post it for yuks. idea is to keep Garen as the same spin-man he is now but give him more decision making and make his spin a more complex ability that still has a low skill floor. Right now, because Garen is only able to do one thing, his spin is put in a very 'stat-check' state of existence, where he either kills you in the duration of his E or he probably gets fucked up when he fails. i try to address this by giving it more flexibility, so he can choose if he wants the faster spin-burst, or if he wants to go for a more sustained fight that gives enemies more time to disengage him but will more often net him kills if he's allowed to do his thing.

so here it is

  • Judgment is now 1 spin per button press, now operates on a charge/stack system with a cap of X spins (let's just say 5 for now)
  • Multiple Judgment spins can be queued to all go off one after the other (like it does currently, for one continuous attack); The first spin has a brief delay, but any spins queued after will not
  • Resets Garen's AA animation (so that he can weave quickly without needing high attack speed)
  • can still crit

for an example of what I mean, Garen could now choose to do AA-E-AA-E and so on, for much stronger damage but over a longer period of time, and each AA-E means that E will have the delayed attack, again. Whereas, something like Q-Ex3 will do a lot more damage in a short window, at the cost of losing some dueling power as he burns through several charges at once and won't be as powerful until he gets them back.

there are 2 things i want to emphasize with this; a low skill-floor with a moderate skill cap (the ability is easy to understand for beginners, but allows you the opportunity to grow as a player) and choice. There's a conscious, constant decision to make with Judgment now, in how many spins do you want to use up front vs if you want to space them out or do any mix in between; are you confident enough in your burst damage that you want to bet all your E stacks in a bid to take someone out quick, or do you want to take the time to weave in your AAs to make sure they die, at the expense of giving them more time to get you off of them? my biggest concern is turning him into a item 3078 monster, but i think that can be worked out somehow

i haven't really thought about what i'd do with the rest of his kit, but this was something i liked enough to want to share. if you feel like this doesn't fulfill the low skillfloor goal, doesn't sound like it gives you enough choice, or if you just don't like it, let me know why, i'd like to discuss it

6 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7wJr9Ov3,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-04T02:49:24.877+0000)

thought this over for a couple days, figured I could post it for yuks. idea is to keep Garen as the same spin-man he is now but give him more decision making and make his spin a more complex ability that still has a low skill floor. Right now, because Garen is only able to do one thing, his spin is put in a very 'stat-check' state of existence, where he either kills you in the duration of his E or he probably gets fucked up when he fails. i try to address this by giving it more flexibility, so he can choose if he wants the faster spin-burst, or if he wants to go for a more sustained fight that gives enemies more time to disengage him but will more often net him kills if he's allowed to do his thing.

so here it is

  • Judgment is now 1 spin per button press, now operates on a charge/stack system with a cap of X spins (let's just say 5 for now)
  • Multiple Judgment spins can be queued to all go off one after the other (like it does currently, for one continuous attack); The first spin has a brief delay, but any spins queued after will not
  • Resets Garen's AA animation (so that he can weave quickly without needing high attack speed)
  • can still crit

for an example of what I mean, Garen could now choose to do AA-E-AA-E and so on, for much stronger damage but over a longer period of time, and each AA-E means that E will have the delayed attack, again. Whereas, something like Q-Ex3 will do a lot more damage in a short window, at the cost of losing some dueling power as he burns through several charges at once and won't be as powerful until he gets them back.

there are 2 things i want to emphasize with this; a low skill-floor with a moderate skill cap (the ability is easy to understand for beginners, but allows you the opportunity to grow as a player) and choice. There's a conscious, constant decision to make with Judgment now, in how many spins do you want to use up front vs if you want to space them out or do any mix in between; are you confident enough in your burst damage that you want to bet all your E stacks in a bid to take someone out quick, or do you want to take the time to weave in your AAs to make sure they die, at the expense of giving them more time to get you off of them? my biggest concern is turning him into a item 3078 monster, but i think that can be worked out somehow

i haven't really thought about what i'd do with the rest of his kit, but this was something i liked enough to want to share. if you feel like this doesn't fulfill the low skillfloor goal, doesn't sound like it gives you enough choice, or if you just don't like it, let me know why, i'd like to discuss it

interesting, but sounds incredible button mashy.

i wouldnt even rework the damage mechanic on his spin at all. only replace the armor shred with a sustain mechanic and focus on changing other abilities.

but if his spin were to receive changes, maybe it would be better to work around the spin cancelling mechanic instead like we talked about a while back.

have the cooldown refund on the spin work in a way where youd aim to spin for like 2 seconds, then cancel it to weave a q or auto attack in, which causes you to be able to spin for another two seconds.

it wouldnt be quite as crazy when it comes to mashing that e button.

Big Lincoln3 votes

this was sort of a spin-off from the spin canceling idea; initially I thought it could be a 'hold down' button but I felt like it might be more clear to the player if it was just multiple button presses

i felt like this was a good compromise between letting him keep his current spin2win spiral and also adding more depth to it, i didn't want to completely remove that and i don't think it NEEDS to be removed as long as it has more options to balance it around. if that makes sense

Salson1 votes

It's a good update for a spell that has to be kept due to it being iconic.

Also thoughts about making his ult a skillshot? Think Lux with 800 range and 0.5s channel.

chipndip11 votes

If you ask me, I'd turn his E into a juggernaut-style engage spell:

  • Holding down Judgement the first time will have Garen begin to charge up his spin, gaining magic resist as he does so. Letting the button go will have him spin in a set direction with increased movement speed, with a more forceful swing for the last hit. Casting the move while spinning stops the move.

  • The longer Garen charges, the more spins he does and the more magic resist he builds (since Demacians are anti-mages...except Lux). The magic resistance he built lasts throughout his spin upon releasing the button.

  • The amount of spins he does ranges from a minimum of 2 to a max of 4 (No charge = 2, half charge = 3, full charge = 4), with its damage and movement speed bonus increasing when leveling the attack. Ticks of damage occur once every full rotation. The last spin does increased damage and restores Garen's health based on the amount of people he hits with it, meaning the trade off for cutting the move early is that he'll be using the fodder hits without the stronger one at the end, but if you don't charge it, you lose out on potential damage. The highest reward would go to those that properly space and time the move to land some of the bonus damage "pre-spins" as well as the main hit at the end that gives him in-fight sustain and increased damage. It can also be used to break up enemy formations with his bonus magic resist while he's barreling into teams.

  • Disabling Garen's ability to cast moves during his initial channel snuffs the move. If he's already spinning, disabling Garen doesn't stop his spin cycle, but he won't continue to move forward.

Now...if this were to "be a thing"...he'd obviously have to lose his Q's silence, but it'd make his E better for doing what jugs do (break up formations and demand aggro through threat of damage), fit more with his anti-mag Demacian culture, negate the need for his W's existence so it could be replaced with a better move, and address his lack of sustain options during big fights, which almost every jug has. I like the idea of him having a strong sustained damage pattern in a fight, but weaving E's over and over feels a bit mashy...something Critmaster said in this thread, too.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i'm not entirely sure how i feel about changing him that much. in terms of the character i actually like that he trades the sustain for much stronger up-front durability; garen is very hard to whittle down between his bonus resists and his damage reduction, and I think that should stay unique to him, even if the W should become a little 'smarter' than just pressing a button and becoming insanely tanky. if nothing else, i think his passive sustain could be a sort of 'second-wind' effect instead of encouraging him to run away, but I also feel like making every juggernaut a drain-tank makes them a little too samey.

in terms of his niche i think he could stand out as being the most similar to squishier melee carries, i.e being able to do a lot of damage and being sorta mobile with speed ups to let him run through a fight. one thing i like about the jug group is that for the most part they have very different reasons to be picked and in that regard I think they're one of the more successful sub-groups, but the older ones have some very glaring design flaws, like udyr, voli, etc.

i like the charge-up idea, it might be a better solution than the button-mashing option, since i'm still not sure how to get around that. maybe holding E would be better, after all

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7wJr9Ov3,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-06-04T17:17:32.824+0000)

i'm not entirely sure how i feel about changing him that much. in terms of the character i actually like that he trades the sustain for much stronger up-front durability; garen is very hard to whittle down between his bonus resists and his damage reduction, and I think that should stay unique to him, even if the W should become a little 'smarter' than just pressing a button and becoming insanely tanky. if nothing else, i think his passive sustain could be a sort of 'second-wind' effect instead of encouraging him to run away, but I also feel like making every juggernaut a drain-tank makes them a little too samey.

I mean, you make a point on jugs being samey if they all use in-fight healing rather than just tanking, but the issue I see is that Garen's passive is more of a skirmisher/assassin passive. You get in the fight, get out of it (somehow) when you're low, and then heal up in the side lines before coming back in and cleaning up house...like a skirmisher/assassin. Jugs, however, are usually taking hits on all fronts and are in it for the long haul until they drop or win out without dropping, even more so than divers. That's why healing-based passives and actives are on most of them, so they can stick around if they play into their offensive tools well, but if not they're punished by missing out on damage and dying faster. At least, that's the case for Olaf, Darius, Illaoi...the better designed juggernauts. I was taking a page from them because the logic's rather sound and it helps to carve out what a jug should aim for during fights.

in terms of his niche i think he could stand out as being the most similar to squishier melee carries, i.e being able to do a lot of damage and being sorta mobile with speed ups to let him run through a fight. one thing i like about the jug group is that for the most part they have very different reasons to be picked and in that regard I think they're one of the more successful sub-groups, but the older ones have some very glaring design flaws, like udyr, voli, etc.

I was thinking that Garen's niche could be him as an anti-magic juggernaut option. We have an anti-magic warden in Galio, and the assassin variant in Kass, but the jug slot's still open. Doesn't mean his ENTIRE kit has to have "If you use ap, you're fucked" styled tools, but making it so his spin has him crashing through the enemy front line sounds like what it REALLY should feel like when you're spinning and screaming "DEMACIA!!!!".

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