It almost feels like Rito don't like junglers for knowing the jungle

The Deckowner·Oct 14, 2016·18 votes·856 views

First we got the stupid global blue/red buff accouncer, fucks over the experienced junglers who can keep track of the enemy jungler and time enemy jungle route.

Then we got this stupid RNG dragon which basically means if you are unlucky taking drag isn't even worth the time of you and your mid/bot lane.

Now we are getting a fucking randomized plant that basically punish the jungler for being controlled and calculated? And we are losing smite buff because apparently rito think "low elo is using them properly"?

Why does Rito hate junglers who knows the jungle?

12 Comments

Teridax68Oct 14, 20165 votes

I don't think it's about punishing junglers, it's more about a) removing all of the rote memorization stuff from jungling, so that anyone can jump in without having to keep a mental spreadsheet of timers and indicators, and b) preventing jungling from being a "solved game", i.e. a space with basically the same solution states every time, and therefore no variance from game to game, and little challenge beyond memorizing the solutions. I am very apprehensive about the plant system, but I do think the jungle needs something that makes junglers take different routes each game, even if it's for the same jungler.

Personally, I'd rather go for semi-randomized camps and camp modifiers. Riot's planning on making certain camps really tailored towards specific kits (i.e. AoE junglers versus single-target junglers), and I think it might be interesting to randomize that a little, e.g. occasionally make the Raptor camp spawn five raptors, and sometimes just the main raptor with bigger stats. Giving monsters randomized "abilities" to spice up gameplay and further diversify options (e.g. a laser a la Viktor's E would favor mobile junglers, and some kind of enrage effect would favor tankier junglers) would also prevent any single camp from being solved from the start.

The DeckownerOct 14, 20162 votes

making the jungle randomized and that everyone can just jump into the the role and perform is a terrible idea. A ROLE REQUIRES KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL. It's like saying adc is too harsh for new players and just make last hitting random. can you even imagine if last hitting is randomized?

Teridax68Oct 14, 20163 votes

A champion doesn't become a good jungler just because they can clear camps, nor would that kind of randomization reduce the skill requirement to jungling. If anything, there would be a different kind of knowledge barrier, in that junglers would eventually memorize different camp configurations and modifiers and know how to adapt to them. Your analogy would only work if last-hitting creeps were random, which is not what I'm suggesting. We already have indicators for dragon types, so carrying that to other camps would allow junglers to plan ahead and adapt their clearing/ganking route based on their kit.

ErockandrollOct 14, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7u2ZKHrW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-10-14T14:55:43.502+0000)

making a the jungle randomized and that everyone can just jump into the the role and oerfirm is a terrible idea. A ROLE REQUIRES KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL. It's like saying adc is too harsh for new players and just make last hitting random. can you even imagine if last hitting is randomized?

To me, that sounds like an over Reaction. The RNG from these plants, isn't going to be nearly as impactful as adding a random mechanic to Last hitting. (But for sake of the argument, making ADC CS randomized would probably make the support role feel better) Really, we can't even accurately measure the impact of these plants, as they are not even on the PBE yet.

And Unlike the ADC Role, The lack of RNG makes the Jungle role a lot more stale comparatively. (And you can't say ADC's lack RNG because crit chance still exists) But to answer your question, Riot is probably favoring Adaptability over rout memorization, as merits of a good Jungler. Yet people would rather not adapt, and complain that they are slaves to the RNG with no control over the outcome.

BastionKrossOct 14, 20164 votes

It's the preseason, which traditionally means Riot is out to screw over junglers because the jungle has become a "solved game". What "solved game" means is that junglers have learned how to play their role correctly and optimally. Is this a bad thing? No, you expect every member of your team to know what they're doing in the role they chose. Does it get stale? Yes, but so does every other role.

Jungling actually affords you the least stagnation since you're not chained to a lane getting CS the majority of laning phase. You can farm, you can gank, you can counterjungle, or do any combination of those depending on how the flow of the game is going and which champion you're playing. Jungle is the least stale role due to their gold gen being tied to the entire span of the map and the jungler having to constantly navigate it.

What the changes do is reduce the amount of homework you have to do to jungle (memorize which route is best for what champion, which jungle item is best, which camp to start depending on which side of the map you're on, etc). This is a good thing, since it opens up the jungle role without having to read a guide first.

Unfortunately the changes also mix things up for the sake of change. Adding more randomness to the jungle (in addition to the elemental dragons, which still feel horrible if you manage to grab one and it's a lame cloud drake) makes it more flashy but also increases the confusion and chances of a good play turning sour through no fault of you or your opponent.

What the jungle changes do is decrease the burden of knowledge required to be a jungler (good) by making it so that the optimal path through the jungle changes every game based on semi-random factors (bad). It's like having a boxing match where the ref hands each guy a chainsaw and says "well, we're shaking things up because two guys punching each other is stale". Is it more exciting? You bet! Can it completely screw over the better boxer who didn't know he'd be in a chainsaw deathmatch until it happened? You bet.

Good direction, but bad execution.

Ben SharpioOct 14, 20162 votes

Because they dont care about you or me they want to make the jungle seem/feel more complicated than it should be. They like to add little "fancy", corny, gimmicky games that all started with RiotRepertoire and his terrible skarner rework

MunchCrunchLunchOct 14, 20162 votes

i think the jungle needs a little more spicing up. SR map needs to be slightly. bigger. tbh. 10% more. for the jungle. more camps

Sightless66Oct 14, 20162 votes

And we are losing smite buff because apparently rito think "low elo is using them properly"

Yeah, that's not even part of it. We're losing smite buffs because there is not a single thought that goes into using them. Any good player should never have to make even a single decision regarding smtie buffs, because the right answer on what you should be smiting is so blatantly obvious that you never have to think about it for even a single second. Low elo is the only skill group that actually has to think about smite buffs, and that's only because they don't understand the buffs well enough to know how to use. For everyone else, it's a completely solved problem. You never, ever need to deviate from the rules regarding smite buffs. That makes them boring.

It's dull when you have elements of the game that require no thought, no mechanical skill, no decision making, or anything else that could justifiably be considered "fun". If their only purpose is to give new players something to memorize once and then never think about again, then why have them? What's the point?

The Sword SaintOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's not even part of it. We're losing smite buffs because there is not a single thought that goes into using them. Any good player should never have to make even a single decision regarding smtie buffs, because the right answer on what you should be smiting is so blatantly obvious that you never have to think about it for even a single second. Low elo is the only skill group that actually has to think about smite buffs, and that's only because they don't understand the buffs well enough to know how to use. For everyone else, it's a completely solved problem. You never, ever need to deviate from the rules regarding smite buffs. That makes them boring.

It's dull when you have elements of the game that require no thought, no mechanical skill, no decision making, or anything else that could justifiably be considered "fun". If their only purpose is to give new players something to memorize once and then never think about again, then why have them? What's the point?

Exactly. They want to move the mastery curve from jungling away from rote memorization and more towards adapting to the state of the map. This is just the latest of many recent attempts to push in this direction.

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7u2ZKHrW,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-14T01:20:54.362+0000)

Why does Rito hate junglers who knows the jungle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8tEiFXSxEo

The DeckownerOct 14, 20161 votes

this isn't even a usable strategy.

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 14, 20161 votes

correct, its a concept. Which is several levels above a mere strategy for a game developer.

When people begin to understand your game they will find flaws if you game is any fun. Alternatively if your game sucks they probably wont find flaws if it was balanced. That's assuming there's no bugs btw.

Perfect balance is making everything even. And yet we strive to have things uneven or unique as we call it. This creates a situation where "perfect imbalance" is preferred overbalance and part of perfect imbalance is sometimes relying on the players not forming a big meta around something abusive which there will always be.. if you want to have a fun game