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"I think we tunnel visioned too much on uniqueness at the expense of some aspects of game health"

Eedat··78 votes·3,810 views

Both Kalista and Azir are representative of a period where in hindsight I think we tunnel visioned too much on uniqueness at the expense of some aspects of game health (overloaded kits) and skill floors. That's resulted in some champs who have really cool stuff on their kits, but have been challenges to balance for regular play versus top tier play. My take is that there are solid concepts there, but that the execution on them needs some work (reducing unnecessary strengths primarily, and putting that power into other parts of the kit, giving clearer weaknesses to play around).

-Meddler

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cwfTKBxg-riot-meddler-shen-is-the-worst-top-laner-now-because-of-618-nerfs-when-can-we-expect-the-buffs?comment=00010001000000000000

#WE DID IT AGAIN BOYS

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92 Comments

Sahn Uzal40 votes

Having an overloaded kit =/= having the issues Azir and Kalista have.

sit kid27 votes

They are overloaded

Kalista does litterally everything an adc could ever want. Hard CC with her R that throws the supp right into the enemy team and allows followup. Her E with Runanns is amazing. Her kiting is plain unfun to play against as a melee champion.

Azir. Oh boy, I love this champion, but i see his problems. Think of other sustain damage mages with 1000+ range dps, 1000+ range dash, insane waveclear, insane pushing and siege power, an ultimate that cockblocks everyoe jumping on him. What more could you ask for?

Camille isn't overloaded however

She is melee and has to sacrifice/risk herself in order to do damage. That in itself means alot. She just feels bs to play against due to her damage, how you can't build around it + mobility. She will get nerfed and people will stop crying.

Remeber release Ekko where he almost oneshot a full health orianna with his ultimate only in the champion spotlight?

Sahn Uzal18 votes

I did NOT say those 2 ain't overloaded. They're overloaded as FUCK. But being overloaded is not their only issue. Azir pretty much does every mage's job better through out the entire game when he's strong. He's SO well rounded it's rediculous.

Camille is just overloaded. That's about it.

TehNACHO4 votes

Adding on to this.

Kalista's hop mechanic combines two fundamental elements of the game, for free and on a fraction of a second cool down, on the type of champion that abuses both of those mechanics the most. Moving normally stutters auto attacks and auto attacks stutter moving; by overwriting the weakness in those fundamental mechanics of the game interacting, Kalista's passive was broken. It doesn't matter if they balance it to be weak, it literally breaks entire mechanics of the game.

Camille on the other hand does exceedingly little if at all to really break the game. As far as I'm concerned, other than some odd but easily fixable interactions with her ultimate (please let it go away if she dies), everything she does can be explained as a fundamental mechanic of the game working as intended.

GayFluffyUnicorn12 votes

Ryze

Dabrick014 votes

What? Ryze is completely different from Azir. Only his combos are overloaded, not his kit.

SlntReaper22 votes

One of his skills is called overload

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

His kit: Burst, AOE, CC, waveclear, a shield, movement speed boost, good early mid and horrifying lategame. Scaling teleport ult which can setup ganks, take minion waves with him, transport his whole team. Oh and a good range on top of him. I played againt four ryze so far. 3 were smurfs, they all had 90% winrate and 12 KDA on him on accounts never ranked, just hit ranked and already in plat and i can tell you i'Ve never felt so helpless in lane. He deals more dmg in the early levels 2-3 than a leblanc. He has more waveclear early than a syndra, ori, viktor. Against a good played ryze you can't do nothing because he does everything other mages does better. His kit is the definition of overloaded.

Squey3 votes

Ryze is BY FAR the definition of this threads title. "I think we tunnel visioned too much on uniqueness at the expense of some aspects of game health"

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7oVquI3c,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-05T13:06:52.882+0000)

Having an overloaded kit =/= having the issues Azir and Kalista have.

Kalista is mobility spam and Azir is hyper range damage spam and they have lots of small utility to help them keep doing their crazy main mechanics. I'd agree Camille isn't as bad, her Q has lots of delay and her E actually is more telegraphed than people give it credit for but she punishes fast if you're in close range. Thing is her R has counterplay only for like 18 or so champs and the rest are just forced to stand in it and die to Camille or a teammate so you have to have better stats than her, and her kit is balanced around her having strong pre6. Her W is also longer than what most top laners have and even if you don't fight with it, its a good sustain tool or chasing tool.

I think if her ult was changed the rest of her kit would feel better. But as is shes just an early game bully like Darius or Renekton and then she gets a super Jarvan ult and builds like a Fiora to keep her strong mid/late. She needs a weakness on her power curve.

vOmvbrawfU21 votes

While I get your meme, I don't think it's true. Her kit doesn't seem all that bad, it's just that she is currently, like a lot of champions on release, overturned so that she is OP and people buy her. Nobody wants to buy a weak champion. I mean, Bard's image/popularity are pretty much ruined because of how bad he was on release. So even though Bard is amazing now, people still hate seeing him because they have the negative bias of how bad he was.

Mr Wright II5 votes

Seriously? At least bard has some sweet aspects that kept him alive when he was made. How about this Taliyah who never saw the light of fucking day? XD

An Undead brat9 votes

Except she did - for one patch.

She got released and everyone sucked at her so although she was fine, they said she's weak and overbuffed her. Then she got picked in the LCS + it was her being out a second patch, so people got grip on her already. That showed that she was way too good in what she was supposed to do, so they nerfed her. Hard. And that was like the third patch she was released, Riot realized the nerfs were too harsh few patches ago and now they're slowly trying to bring her back.

Mr Wright II1 votes

That's true, what I'm saying is I see Bard more then I see her (Unless I play her myself which I do a lot)

vOmvbrawfU1 votes

That's because she currently sucks ass lol, while Bard is really good.

Mr Wright II1 votes

You're right

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2391710733/201745808?tab=overview

She sucks

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2391925683/201745808?tab=overview

So much

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2391717673/201745808?tab=overview

Just saying I like her a lot and do somewhat well with her

vOmvbrawfU1 votes

Match history doesn't work right now.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2391243173/82580301

But just because I did good with ADC Fid, doesn't mean ADC Fid is good lol.

Mr Wright II1 votes

Of course, wouldn't be riot if something worked properly Kappa

I see whatcha mean

Xonra1 votes

"Her kit doesn't seem all that bad"

lol how much of her have you actually had to lane against? My guess is not much. As a person who plays a lot of top lane, unless you are lucky enough to get a counter pick, you aren't winning the lane ever. It just isn't gonna happen. It isn't just a matter of overtuned, as she also is, but her kit is just dumb. "I'm gonna dive from a full screen away, then smack you in the face out of your melee range, then I also have this shield, so you can't actually fight back without committing now at lower health, and then I'll just ult and kill you".

Anidan1 votes

You're playing in top lane. That kind of thing should be normal to you guys by now since every other week top lane mains are complaining about a new kind of cancer that can't be beat in lane outside of a direct counter.

Mr Wright II1 votes

Lol how much of him you actually lane had to lane against? My guess not much. As a person who plays a lot of bot lane, unless you're lucky enough to have a great support, you aren't winning lane ever. It just isn't gonna happen. It isn't just a matter of overturned, as he also is, but his kit is just dumb. "I'm gonna pull you from a full screen away, knock you up, aoe nuke silence. Then I also have this shield that pops on for a 50% of my current mana. Now since you're low Imma speed away and pull you again. Meanwhile my ADC is melting you"

You can make anyone sound OP when you say the things they're good at

EDIT: for those who couldn't tell. Its Blitzcrank

DunkinNoobs21 votes

Camille isn't overloaded, she's just overtuned. She'll get nerfed and stop being an issue.

Hello I am Bird4 votes

As long as her ult exists, I don't think she can be healthy. Forcing someone inside a small area like that is not good for the game in general. Considering the only way to get out is to kill her then wait an extra second.

Anidan7 votes

Well, it is what people have suggested for J4's ult to be able to do for years now. Given how her kit works, it feels perfectly fine to me. Even in a teamplay setting it sounds fine, because it gives you some way to nullify the enemy's mobility. And you might say "Well that's not fair because they rely on that mobility to survive." That's the risk of a team game with unique characters - you absolutely run the risk of your strength becoming a liability in certain situations. Whether it's Camille's grounding preventing the mobile from escaping, for example, or Riki's backstab backfiring spectacularly against Bristleback, and so on.

Fondling Gems2 votes

Honestly it is worse than what people were asking for as J4's ult. People wanted J4's ult to still do damage, trap you in a small area, and ground you preventing all mobility/flash meaning you can't escape. Camilles ult is much larger, has no upfront damage meaning most of it's power is vs tanks not squishies due to the %health damage on autos, has less range, and you can still use mobility spells/summoners in it.

Honestly Camille ult is strong, but not more so than half a dozen other ults I could name. It also has a lot of weaknesses like sudo trapping Camille because if she leaves the ult ends as well as pushing away other enemies, making her actually be a bad pick on wombo combo teams.

I don't think it even needs to be nerfed, as the rest of her kit is nerfed it will get toned down at the same time because it's power relies on Camille having power in her basic abilities. In terms of combat power it is actually pretty weak, so as her kit gets nerfed it will be nerfed since it is only effective if you want to stay in the same area as an enemy.

Aptest2 votes

I think with all the hyper mobile champions now in league, it is about time some champions have skill that pre-empt mobility abuse _without _ disconnecting the other guy's keyboard.

otoh i do see the problem. the danger with skills that basically spell: "X can always convert being head to getting a kill" is that they create very snowbally champions. We see this with Camille, and we see this with other frustrating champions namely Vayne.

How can you stall the game against champions that have a "I can secure the kill VS you" type of skills?

Xonra1 votes

It doesn't matter how strong it is compared to other ults, it is one of the strongest ults you could give to someone with her already silly kit as a duelist/fighter.

I mean you couldn't just tack on Sion's ult or something. It is how well it makes the rest of her kit and play style, but turned up to 11. So not only can she already out duel you, not when she ults, you get a big middle finger so you either just fight and die, or try to escape (which you can't in any way) and die.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Yes her ult is strong, but as you said it is only that strong in the context of her kit. As such rather than her ult needing nerfs the rest of her kit does. As her kit gets nerfed it will naturally nerf her ult. People complaining about her ult seem to think that nerfing her ult is the solution. It really isn't because her ult isn't where the issue lies. Her ult fin in terms of power level, it is the rest of her kit having good synergy with her ult (which is good in and of itself) as well as being overbearing.

Looking at why her ult seems overbearing nerfing her basic abilities seems like the answer.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

To be fair people are upset at her ult mostly because it's HER ult. Being trapped to 1v1 for 4 seconds might be a toxic game design, and it might not be. There's no need to argue it one way or the other, because either way, being trapped to 1v1 Camille for 4 seconds is insanely toxic. Once she gets nerfed I think people will chill about her ult

ADC5LUT10 votes

Over loaded kits isn't the right phrase rather toxic kits is better suited. The moment Kalista was released i knew she was a major brainfart on riots part. She legitimately nullified every skillshot champion in the game. Yasuo is another champion that was released around that time and he nullifies entire champions too with his toxic kit.

doodlebob6662 votes

don't forget every single juggernaut, kalista makes them all completely pointless

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

A good Ashe does too. (>_>)

ModCaptainMårvelous10 votes

Camille doesn't fit that at all because her skill floor is quite low and her skill ceiling isn't as high as Azir or Kalista. She's not a balance nightmare like either of them, she's just overtuned.

RookPusher2 votes

This. And I feel like with the right CC she's manageable. Then again, I'm pretty sure I've been against some bad ones because she gets dunked half the time I see her.

Xonra1 votes

I think Camille is 100% in the same camp as far as "when she is strong, she is dumb, but if you tune her down, she isn't going to be worth playing".

I think she is going to be hard to balance with all her kit has. She has, just like Azir and Kalista, everything a Duelist/fighter would want. If you drop any of that down some, it is going to fall like dominoes, and she will be an easy target. If you keep her as is, she will be eventually permabanned.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Absolutely not the case. At all.

Azir/Kalista needed to have a high skill floor/ceiling because of how powerful they are comparative to the standard league character. When they're weak, you have a difficult-to-play character (For the average person) who does worse/on-par with easy characters. There's no reason to pick him/her other than flavor.

Camille, comparatively, isn't the least bit difficult to play. She's straight-forward and the hardest parts about her kit are timing her Q to get the true damage and hitting the edge of your sweep. There's nothing comparative to Azir's shurima shuffle or Kalista's spear-shuffling. She's VERY straight-forward comparative to them. Even if you nerf her, she's going to be pickable because she still has utility (Lockdown ult) and isn't so hard as to handicap new players.

Zero Skill Tank7 votes

Meh. Camille's problem is not "uniqueness". Her problem is abundance of... basically everything. I.e. her dash isn't problematic because it's fancy, it's problematic because it can cover insane range. Likewise her Q is somewhat mundane, it's just gives her crapton of damage.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

To be fair, the Skillshot that latches to the wall is rather slow, so if she's using it max range, you have plenty of time to start preparing for jukes.

OurLestrade5 votes

Didn't they say in the Camille blog thing that they basically tried to make it so you felt better than everyone by playing her? They certainly pulled that off.

Blåbæret5 votes

Camille is easily fixable with a few nerfs and isn't overloaded.

Veltox4 votes

How you can call that ult not overloaded paired with all the stuff she got already?

Corriandr2 votes

Eh, got to play against camille top a few times. There's nothing inherently wrong with her kit, that I saw, other than her numbers are bit too high (or in case of cooldowns: too low). I actually like it, just needs some fine tuning to bring her in line and make the windows of vulnerability she has actual windows instead of, say, blinks (see: cooldowns).

LatetotheRace2 votes

The only overloaded aspects of her kit IMO are the heal (or the slow either could be removed to fix that) and the ability for her to scale walls. Hopping off walls is one thing, but climbing over them to escape is a bit much.

YFisfabulousBRUH1 votes

I feel like the wall escape is fine. how else is she gonna run away? And the heal is her only form of sustain, and its also useless in teamfights. Its a tad weak imo

Xonra2 votes

Like everyone else. Use flash, or don't expect to escape when you go all in. Not everyone has a "run away" button. Especially not one that can jump over walls, or leap a full screen distance.

YFisfabulousBRUH1 votes

Talon Ahri Ekko Zac Zed Vi Tryndamere Shaco Sejuani Kassadin Aatrox Bard Fizz Gnar Graves Hecarim Jax Katarina Khazix Kindred Lissandra Lucian Irelia Leblanc Nidalee Pantheon Malphite Maokai Caitlyn Kalista Vayne andLeeSin

i agree on the range thing i think that needs a nerf. But "run away button" are you srs?

Titanium704 votes

Nah Camille - while overloaded - not really is another Azir. Her Skillfloor is low to medicore her Cap is Highish. Her Powercurve seems to be reasonable - however to high accross the board.

In terms of complexity I consider Camille a good example how the upper end of the Champion roaster should look like.

Astôlfo1 votes

That feeling when Eedat makes another repwhoring post while not even understanding what he's talking about. LUL

Gotta love being downvoted for speaking the truth.

The Great Divide8 votes

I think you're downvoted more because of the way you present yourself and your arguments.

Marketing tactics (which mostly means not sounding pretentious and arrogant) can go a long way :D

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