If you wanna nerf Frozen Heart's stats and increase its cost

Sasogwa·Aug 9, 2015·60 votes·3,332 views

How about buffing the passive from 15 to 20% ? We kinda lack in the attack speed slow domain, as most people who own/used to own it get it nerfed or removed ( )

55 Comments

Cowgirl EdAug 9, 201517 votes

WTF ADCS ARE ALREADY HAVING A HARD TIME WHY WOULD YOU BUFF ARMOR PFFT, MELEE MAINS shm

/sarcasm

DorkunedAurasAug 9, 20155 votes

Well, most champs have had item 3075 ruined, though Rammus now fking destroys ADCs a lot harder than ever.

SasogwaAug 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Well, most champs have had ruined, though now fking destroys ADCs a lot harder than ever.

We have to check if new item 3075 works against sated devourer phantom autos (due to the base amount on %bonus armor). I made an approximate calculation in my head and it would actually destroy sated users ( MasterYi for instance). Like, literally 2 times the damage it used to deal or something similar. The new is worse against ADC, but seems quite strong against on-hit attack speed based champions.

DorkunedAurasAug 9, 20155 votes

Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok Rammus ok

ErockandrollAug 9, 20157 votes

{quoted}

We have to check if new works against sated devourer phantom autos (due to the base amount on %bonus armor). I made an approximate calculation in my head and it would actually destroy sated users ( for instance). Like, literally 2 times the damage it used to deal or something similar. The new is worse against ADC, but seems quite strong against on-hit attack speed based champions.

I had to think about that for a sec. The phantom hit does zero AD by itself. but still procs the thornmail passive, which will still do damage based on your armor.

It seems like Thornmail, is becoming less inclined to counter glass cannons, and less powerful as a stand alone armor item. But even better at countering Attack speed as a whole.

kaykalosAug 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We have to check if new works against sated devourer phantom autos (due to the base amount on %bonus armor). I made an approximate calculation in my head and it would actually destroy sated users ( for instance). Like, literally 2 times the damage it used to deal or something similar. The new is worse against ADC, but seems quite strong against on-hit attack speed based champions.

Nice tip

junglerboy16Aug 10, 20151 votes

Which is actually a really good thing since if you are stacking armor, it allows you to still deal with magic DPS in a way.

Say the enemy has a fed ADC and an AD assassin, you stack ~300 bonus armor to counter it. prior to the change, you were almost oppressively effective against a late game ADC (when they are supposed to be strongest), but almost totally ineffective against someone with devourer/on-hit build. now, even though you have that huge amount of armor and presumably little mr, you can still counter the AS champion much more easily.

Also, it's a vayne nerf, because she deals a lot less raw physical damage than most ADCs and procs a lot more small hits instead.

TenSlashTenAug 9, 20151 votes

how does rammus destroy adc's harder tyhan ever? He's gotten nerfed repeatedly lmfao. his Q is literally trash. his E lost like what. .5 seconds? . 75 seconds? at max rank. and thats literally all he was for just pressing E on someone.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 9, 20151 votes

Thornmail scales off having armor, so Rammus having an innate reason to build full armor will help him.

DorkunedAurasAug 10, 20151 votes

That means that with his W up, he does 25% of his armor as magic damage on hit, along with 60? base and 15% their AD. That's an awful lot

ShloonzAug 10, 20151 votes

it might be like 80+60+50= 190

yes that's awful (not lot) if the vayne deals 600 in the same time and then after every third attack 600 true damage which results in 1800 with armor reduction... so maybe 900+600 true damage from her bolts. This means you take 3300 dmg with 3 hits and she takes 600.

to kill her on 1vs1 you need (assuming vayne has 1800hp) 9900HP. and that is without even taking into account her bloodthirster/lifesteal. gj easy kill

LemurKickAug 10, 20151 votes

So you have zero armor and 7500 health?

DorkunedAurasAug 10, 20151 votes

.75 seconds on Taunt,

Q is not trash, and I don't know why you think it is

With new Thornmail synergy, he does absolute monstrous amount of damage to high attack speed squishies, and can 1v1 trynds, yis, jinxes, anything like that no problem.

ParaBellamAug 9, 20154 votes

But that limits on the #lcsbigplays??? You don't REALLY want ADCs to have that big of a problem melting tanks, right?

Silents429Aug 9, 20153 votes

Because a tank with item 3110 and item 3143 together is ridiculous.

I don't know if people forgot about the hefty amount of high stats item 3110 has and still will have after the changes, but I think the price seems reasonable.

dEAdbUsAug 9, 20151 votes

Try to beat good Irelia on toplane without this ridiculous stats. You know what is truly ridiculous? Irelia's power.

Bouffon dAnglaisAug 9, 20152 votes

Aren't we past this #betternerfirelia?

SunriseSkaterKidAug 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Aren't we past this #betternerfirelia?

no cause she still is a monster that only needs 2 items to kill a 6 item ADC.

Auz the RipperAug 9, 20154 votes

What competent fighter/assassin doesn't only need 2 items to kill an ADC? It's literally their main purpose in this game

Ariel the CruelAug 9, 20151 votes

Depends on the champion. Darius has problems with ADC's. Varus Has problems with . . . Everyone.

Kuroi86Aug 10, 20151 votes

Has problems with . . . Everyone.

He's still fun as hell to play. Just wish his kit had a bit more synergy.

SunriseSkaterKidAug 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7oAOuhH7,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-09T19:02:10.018+0000)

What competent fighter/assassin doesn't only need 2 items to kill an ADC? It's literally their main purpose in this game

shes not an assassin and fighters are meant to kill ADC's, this is true but she has an insane Q ratio, a true damage steroid buff, a stun and or slow, and a R that heals her for a lot of HP. No fighter can 100-0 a ADC while only using Q auto auto R like Irelia can while only having two items. Not even Jax can do that and he is the epitome of a late game backline killer.

Zair UmbrasAug 10, 20151 votes

She's a Fighter Primary role, Assassin Secondary, so.... she is kind of an assassin. Much like Riven is a Fighter Primary, Assassin Secondary. So is Jax. So is Yasuo, Tryn, Vi, Poppy, and Xin! All of which, save for Yasuo-ish, have high stickiness and large amounts of burst, which is what an Assassin is. Stickiness and Burst.

dEAdbUsAug 9, 20152 votes

Did we really get any nerfs for Irelia? Nope? Irelia is toplaner #1 in soloQ right now, one of most picked/banned. After destroying Ryze and Rene nothing can stop good Irelias.

UltraSceptileAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Aren't we past this #betternerfirelia?

Buys triforce, spirit visage and giants belt. 100-0s my adc with IE shiv vamp scepter LW adc within 3 seconds.

No we're never going to get past this when as long as that still happens.

Mandang0Aug 9, 20151 votes

I seriously hope you're not rushing FH against someone with a true damage on-hit.

dEAdbUsAug 9, 20151 votes

Don't forget that FH slow AA and Irelia deals less on-hits, how ever I'm not, I prefer rushing Runduin, but vs Irelia it doesn't help anyway.

Silents429Aug 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Try to beat good Irelia on toplane without this ridiculous stats. You know what is truly ridiculous? Irelia's power.

Because she is the pinnacle of a healthy champion we should be balancing everything around.

Ariel the CruelAug 9, 20151 votes

Better nerf Sona.

dEAdbUsAug 10, 20151 votes

We'll see next patch.

YumaS2AstralAug 9, 20152 votes

I personally think that we need more attack speed reduction items/abilities. Fiora gained one which is a good step on the right direction, on other hand we need attack speed reduction to keep ADCs in check. Not only them, but most AD champions in general. Almost all of them are affected in some way or another, even if they are casters. Also, there is the AP champions who are attack speed reliant, such as Kayle, Azir, and Teemo.

I don't really know why Riot keeps removing every attack speed reduction ability. Some needed to be removed, such as in Lee Sin's case, but with the way that things are going, we need more options to slow enemy's attack speed.

gubigubiAug 9, 20152 votes

How about no. Stats like that are so annoying in this game. You just buy them and they do all the work for you while giving your opponent 0 counter play to that kind of stat.

Ariel the CruelAug 9, 20152 votes

Good point.

While we're at it. Lets remove crit chance. And true damage.

And just for fun: Kalista . (no seriously, F Kalista.)

gubigubiAug 9, 20151 votes

True damage definitely should be used less than it is with these updated champions. True damage should only be used in very rare cases.

Crit chance is something that needs to be in the game or else the game will be really snow bally once someone gets the first life steal item.

But stats like reduces 15% attack speed around me is so lame.

Ariel the CruelAug 10, 20151 votes

Crit chance is something that needs to be in the game or else the game will be really snow bally once someone gets the first life steal item.

The problem with crit chance is it also has a tendency to create snowballs. Primarily early game when say.... Cait gets a headshot-crit. Or Ashe gets a double crit with only 2% crit chance. Or when Tryndamere exists.

Or mid game when you go into the fight against a perfect mirrior, but lose because that landed their crit first.

Or late game when . . . Ok, lets be honest with ourselves. Other than crit builds doing about 700 damage per AA; there's nothing wrong with crit chance late game.

gubigubiAug 10, 20151 votes

Crit prevents snow balls more so than it creates them.

When you get down an item and you buy crit there is still a chance that you could get lucky and out put = or greater damage than someone ahead of you.

ShloonzAug 10, 20151 votes

Also reduce Vayne's silver bolt to only proc once within 10 seconds like a lot of other skills do. right now she can silver bolt you every 1-2 seconds.

ShloonzAug 19, 20151 votes

Yes, but supports like Braum can only proc the skill once every 10 sec or so on the same champ. I think there are several champs who have a cooldown on stackable procs.

Artty of AlaskaAug 10, 20152 votes

Don't know why you're getting down-voted, though there might be a better way to articulate your opinion about those kind of stats.

I feel like Frozen Heart feels lame because the effect is mostly invisible. There's no visual indicator like item 3751 or item 3001 and it's difficult to perceive reduced attack speed unless you're the attacker of the debuff is fairly potent.

I think Frozen Heart would be more interesting if:

The aura applied a visual effect on affected champions, like an ice crystal where the vfx for sheen/empowered auto attacks would be. Any visual iMercator would increase clarity for all involved and increase the perceived value of the item.
Allow the strength of the aura to increase by causing its effect to temp up over time. Similar to the currently-ice-boxed rework. This change may also solidify as an item best suited to full tank builds, where the champ invests in the extra time needed to ramp up the attack speed debuff.

But anyways, yeah, I agree the item feels sorta lame atm.

Count BuffonAug 10, 20151 votes

If anything, nerf the mana. Glacial Shroud doesn't need 200-->250, and Frozen Heart doesn't need 250-->400. If FH cost 400 gold (a Sapphire Crystal) less and only gave 200 mana, I'd be totally fine with it. Almost everyone but Ryze would be ok, too. Even going 250-->300 mana and shaving off 200 gold would be a huge improvement.

By the time you can complete FH, mana has already become a junk stat anyway.

Hard PenetratorAug 10, 20152 votes

Look, top is already infested by resourceless champions. Why would you nerf mana for Nasus, Malph, Mao and so on.

SohleksAug 10, 20151 votes

Why should the AS reduction passive of FH become even further better than Randiuns? FH AS reduction already applies passively in an aoe around. item 3143 users envy it.

Although I am a bit surprised we are cutting the armor value and increasing the gold cost of FH, FH really does need a nerf, as it is far far far too gold efficient, and a powerful spike for caster fight tanks/ or utility tanks.

I believe FH is being preemptively being nerfed because of the influx of new HP fighter items coming out. FH will synergize incredibly well providing further offensive power of CDR, a stack of armor and the "necessary" AS reduction passive frontliners need.

Randiuns is getting a crit dmg reduction effect; but I believe this is so the item can have less HP but still be effective as an anti ADC item in serious fights. This way Randiuns owners can be more vulnerable to magic damage. It's intended to be a nerf.

It's fine tuning to round out tank items because currently item 3110 or item 3143 exceed all other options. I think it's ok either one or the other is a must buy for heavy tanks and I'm sure it'll remain that way, but I think maybe they won't be rushed as the first item as frequently anymore.

We're gonna see sunfire cape come back a little bit maybe. But I suspect we'll see a lot of the new dead man's plate- that's a fat chunk of hp, armor, and movement speed.

SasogwaAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why should the AS reduction passive of FH become even further better than Randiuns? FH AS reduction already applies passively in an aoe around. users envy it.

Although I am a bit surprised we are cutting the armor value and increasing the gold cost of FH, FH really does need a nerf, as it is far far far too gold efficient, and a powerful spike for caster fight tanks/ or utility tanks.

I believe FH is being preemptively being nerfed because of the influx of new HP fighter items coming out. FH will synergize incredibly well providing further offensive power of CDR, a stack of armor and the "necessary" AS reduction passive frontliners need.

Randiuns is getting a crit dmg reduction effect; but I believe this is so the item can have less HP but still be effective as an anti ADC item in serious fights. This way Randiuns owners can be more vulnerable to magic damage. It's intended to be a nerf.

It's fine tuning to round out tank items because currently or exceed all other options. I think it's ok either one or the other is a must buy for heavy tanks and I'm sure it'll remain that way, but I think maybe they won't be rushed as the first item as frequently anymore.

Frozen Heart has been nerfed in the past. Its passive used to be 20% (and even before, it was 25%). Meanwhile, Randuins also slowed movespeed of autoattackers [good old times where kiting wasn't so toxic once you had it :( ], but its attack speed slow was less good. Right now, Randuins has health and crit chance reduction. But yeah, Frozen Heart has CDR and mana. Yet somehow, as it's been in the past that way, when I think about attack speed reduction items, I think more of item 3110 than item 3143 . The fact that Frozen Heart always applies in an aura, and Randuins doesn't also further shows that.

As for being rushed, I don't know about that. I feel like champions like Nasus / Sion will want to get item 3110 as soon as possible, even if nerfed.

SohleksAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted} As for being rushed, I don't know about that. I feel like champions like / will want to get as soon as possible, even if nerfed.

I didn't mean most champions will be building differently. A number of top lane champs like Nasus or Maokai are ability reliant enough with high enough mana costs they're almost required to build FH or Righteous Glory.

What I meant is we'll see more of different champions. Like Renekton with a dead man's plate against an AD top laner.

VoidgolemAug 10, 20151 votes

I'll see how deadman's plate works out on live before claiming armor needs more buffs.

even though armor felt -really- bad after 30-40 minutes when every physical damage person has asstons of penetration even without the incoming nerfs >:\

SasogwaAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'll see how deadman's plate works out on live before claiming armor needs more buffs.

even though armor felt -really- bad after 30-40 minutes when every physical damage person has asstons of penetration even without the incoming nerfs >:\

Ofc. But as I see it, armor as a stat falls off compared to physical damage because physical damage has so much scaling via different stats that work multiplicatively together (attack speed, crit, cdr, arpen, lifesteal, ad) while armor... well, it's armor. A way to buff armor slightly in lategame and make it less obnoxious in midgame is to reduce the raw power it gives midgame (nerf armor value) but make it better in lategame via a passive that scales with the amount of damage they have/ the amount of tankiness you have.

That's why I actually think Randuin's Omen -crit reduction- and Thornmail -scaling with armor- changes are actually very nice, the idea behind (tanks be less of a powerspike unkillable monster midgame and in comparison doesn't fall like a flee in lategame) is very good.

That's why I suggest this change. I think it's perfectly fine to nerf FH, but giving it a little more lategame power (via the aura) seems a nice solution.

(Don't worry, ADC will still be the carries that kinda melt tanks lategame, but it could be less obnoxious).

Still, about Randuin's/Thornmail, if the passives are well-thought, I'm not sure the numbers are good. We'll have to wait live to test those items, because they could be underpowered due to too low numbers. But the idea behind the changes are good.

And about item 3742 , I think it's kinda like, the new randuin's. Stat-wise, it's stronger than new randuins, helps a bit with kite but gives only straight stats (health, armor) and no aura/passive that would scale well in lategame to reduce/turn against them carries DPS. So it's less "late-game DPS denial".