Honestly, a huge majority of darius's (and most juggernauts for that matter) problems can be fixed

Tychusfindlay918·Feb 1, 2018·42 votes·2,343 views

By just nerfing excessive damage.

Darius doesn't suck because he's forced into extended trades to make the most use of his kit, or because he is too telegraphed. He sucks because he can literally be deleted in like 2-3 seconds mid-late game. Back in his heyday in season 5, his maximum damage potential was LOWER than it is now, and yet he was considered near if not kind of broken.

If you look at the fights in season 5 (right before the cancerous ADC update of season 6) post juggernaut rework, one of the reasons why darius did pretty well was because he wasn't guaranteed to be fucking one shotted by the enemy adc/mage.

Being CC'd for a couple seconds isn't darius's problem, in fact, that was probably intended to be one of his counters (the CC allowing the enemy to swap out so that he gets denied noxian might). The problem is that in this day and age, being CCd for a couple seconds means you'll get fucking deleted, even as a supposedly very tanky juggernaut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p_Dt2SMMNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrih36f0K1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cutw2beisWY

38 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 1, 20185 votes

that is true

good luck to nerf excessive damage on 140 champions though

Also Illaoi is telegraphed, yet successes right now even in high elo same for Nasus, and somewhat Mordekaiser and Udyr

Darius is just garbage

Tychusfindlay918Feb 1, 201822 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lZ7tAK8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-01T07:12:38.160+0000)

that is true

good look to nerf excessive damage on 140 champions though

Also Illaoi is telegraphed, yet successes right now even in high elo same for Nasus, and somewhat Mordekaiser and Udyr

Darius is just garbage

Both illaoi and nasus having relied on gimmicky shit like klepto which darius is unable to really abuse at all.

Also, illaoi and nasus don't need extended trades, in fact, illaoi is known for her incredible burst potential with just E > R > W which can occur in the span of 2 seconds.

Also, illaoi is omegagarbage into anything ranged kinda like darius because she gets deleted after like 2 seconds of kiting/cc (just like darius). But her effective range with her E and Q are actually able to match ranged characters unlike apprehend (which got ninja nerfed from 550 range to 535 range thanks riot).

Nasus does well because champions like darius and renekton are troll picks, and nasus is unique in that he can get away with a single damage item (sometimes he doesnt even go triforce, he just goes IBG) INTO PURE TANK along with his ultimate which gives him incredible tank potential without having to rely on unreliable things like decimate or tentacle slam. In other words, nasus is a statstick, and right now, statsticks have a better chance than anything that requires more careful play. Also, we can't seriously forget that riot OMEGABUFFED nasus's R into one of the game's biggest super saiyan modes.

"good look (luck?) [nerfing excessive damage on 140 champions though]"

No need to look at each champion individually, just look at the rune and item system. You're acting like champions must only be acted upon directly rather than indirectly.

AhristocatsFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Both illaoi and nasus having relied on gimmicky shit like klepto which darius is unable to really abuse at all.

So why Darius is unable to use klepto?

Also, illaoi is omegagarbage into anything ranged kinda like darius

at least she's good into melee champion :^)

and no don't tell me Darius is too, that's just a flat lie he tickles since fervor is gone, doesn't do anything and gets rolled by almost any toplaner even tanks

Nasus does well because champions like darius and renekton are troll picks, and nasus is unique in that he can get away with a single damage item (sometimes he doesnt even go triforce, he just goes IBG) INTO PURE TANK

Even Darius used to build Black cleaver into full tank, but it doesn't matter, Nasus is good because he can burst squishies and kill them in like 2 sec, something that Darius can't do unless he already has noxian might

No need to look at each champion individually, just look at the rune and item system. You're acting like champions must only be acted upon directly rather than indirectly.

i don't know which rune except maybe press the attack that is rarely picked, causes massive damage in mid/late game they all scale like shit

Tychusfindlay918Feb 1, 201814 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lZ7tAK8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-01T07:26:23.172+0000)

So why Darius is unable to use klepto?

at least she's good into melee champion :^)

and no don't tell me Darius is too, that's just a flat lie he tickles since fervor is gone, doesn't do anything and gets rolled by almost any toplaner even tanks

Even Darius used to build Black cleaver into full tank, but it doesn't matter, Nasus is good because he can burst squishies and kill them in like 2 sec, something that Darius can't do unless he already has noxian might

i don't know which rune except maybe press the attack that is rarely picked, causes massive damage in mid/late game they all scale like shit

That you manage to cut up my post and fail to counter ALL of its relevant points is a sign of either your laziness or bias.

In any case, NO, darius can't use klepto well at all.

I'm not going to tell you that darius is great into melees like he used to be because damage got buffed for things he can't really make use of and tanks got buffed hard both in damage and durability since his heyday in season 5.

"Darius USED TO BUILD BLACK CLEAVER"

Nice, but now darius is forced into a 2 damage item build to be relevant, the same can't be said for nasus. Also, nasus got huge durability buffs since season 5 now that his ultimate gives a retarded amount of resistances to go along with the HP as opposed to the gaining AD it used to give for damaging things.

"I dont know which rune..."

so did "item system" just completely evade you there? Also, you can look at non-keystones as well, it's not like only keystones contribute to excessive damage. In any case.

item 3031 used to give 10 less AD than it does today. item 3508 used to give 10 less AD than it does today. item 3087 passive damage used to be 30-100, today it is 60-160.

See the trend here? And of course, yes, there is powercreep even directly among champions, but I would say that is secondary to things like ths.

AhristocatsFeb 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

In any case, NO, darius can't use klepto well at all.

but nasus can? that's strange

I'm not going to tell you that darius is great into melees like he used to be because damage got buffed for things he can't really make use of and tanks got buffed hard both in damage and durability since his heyday in season 5.

So you're agreeing on the fact that Darius is terrible

Yet Nasus and Illaoi are both used in high elo even if damage is high so why can't Darius do it? Even fucking Udyr is played, and he builds triforce

"Darius USED TO BUILD BLACK CLEAVER"

Nice, but now darius is forced into a 2 damage item build to be relevant, the same can't be said for nasus.

"I dont know which rune..."

so did "item system" just completely evade you there?

I didn't talk about items because i agreed with that idea, you can nerf items to reduce damage you can't nerf runes because they do not play a role in late game damage at all

Also, you want to nerf damage overall, when you can simply buff one terrible champion that sounds additional work for nothing

Darius is a problem since fervor is gone and riot is going to give us a bruiser keystone

no need to look at items or runes

ElohavenFeb 1, 20185 votes

you can't nerf runes because they do not play a role in late game damage at all

Oh man...

...Speaking of high elo...

KaeblenFeb 1, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lZ7tAK8,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-01T15:28:53.958+0000)

In any case, NO, darius can't use klepto well at all. <

but nasus can? that's strange

I would be much more inclined to listen to you if you knew how Kleptomancy works. It relies on 2 things to be useful:

the ability to reliably poke an enemy with your auto-attack, without reprisal.
the ability to scale into late game. (the added gold allows you to scale faster, and if your champion does not get large benefits late game, this is wasted)

So lets take a look at Nasus, and at Darius. #1. So, they both have an "empower auto-attack" ability. That's pretty much a best case for procing klepto on enemies, so I'll throw that out right away: they can both proc klepto on their enemies. The big difference is the "without reprisal" clause.

Nasus can proc klepto in one of 2 reliable ways: 1 use Q, and hope your passive lifesteal will make up the damage you take during the trade (pretty safe bet, but no garantee). 2 use Wither, removing the enemies ability to fight back while you walk up and slap them (perfect in ranged matchups, less against sticky or ability reliant champs). In either of these cases, Nasus can proc klepto, and then continue laning, due to his innate good sustain (passive lifesteal).
Darius proc klepto using W or E, but neither garantees a good trade. In order for darius to go even on a trade, one of 2 things needs to happen. 1. he hits with his Q, heals, and backs off (no klepto proc). 2. he sticks to his enemy for several seconds, and works his passive to 5 stacks (this is a full engage, not a "trade" or a "poke"). The second option is decidedly gristly, and well outside of the "poke for gold" mentality that kleptomancy encourages.

#2. Need to scale well into late game.

Nasus: he wants sheen for damage, but scales primarily by becoming unkillable. He builds tank items. he uses klepto and his passive to stay in lane, gaining XP and stacks. Once he has his R, he requires 2v1 or more to kill, or else you just wait out the ult. He can be a monster in teamfights, or can split push to knock down towers like they were paper towels.
Darius: he uses Black Cleaver for stickiness and a damage amp. Wants high damage AND durability, and really thrives only after he gets 5 stacks of his passive onto an enemy. This means that the moment bot lane (CC and ranged damage) rotates, darius has huge difficulty getting his passive on line. If he gets ahead, he will steamroll everyone, but if he doesn't, he won't really scale past the mid-game.

I can throw in an aside about Ezreal and Gangplank, who can both use Q to poke at range, and get klepto procs whenever they want. Ez is hard to hit, and GP has his oranges to heal him. Both do well in teamfights, and both have global presence, so yeah, they scale into late game.

So is it weird that Nasus can use klepto, but Darius can't? Well, no, they work off of totally different fighting tactics. Is darius objectively "bad"? I'm not even touching that question. His fighting style is contrary to mine, and I can't even use him when he's OP.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 2, 20181 votes

Also, you want to nerf damage overall, when you can simply buff one terrible champion that sounds additional work for nothing

remember when I suggested buffing weak early game ADCs instead of nerfing Kog'Maw since Kog'Maw isn't the only problematic ADC. then you and your mates shit on me for it?

karma

SzGamer227Feb 1, 20183 votes

Darius has just above a 50% win rate in high ELO according to not one, but F O U R League stat sites Two of those sites are looking specifically at Diamond, and not just Plat+.

His weaknesses are just as uncomfortable as ever, but he's not performing poorly in any sense.

ReformedfindlayFeb 1, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Darius has just above a 50% win rate in high ELO according to not one, but F O U R League stat sites Two of those sites are looking specifically at Diamond, and not just Plat+.

His weaknesses are just as uncomfortable as ever, but he's not performing poorly in any sense.

Only after his play rate plummeted. Only the more dedicated darius players are sticking with him, and hardly 49-50% aint anything to run home about

SzGamer227Feb 1, 20182 votes

'Not strong' is not 'weak' either. A claim that a champion that is within 1% of a 50% win rate at all ELOs is "garbage" is very easy to dispute.

Critmaster GarenFeb 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lZ7tAK8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-01T07:12:38.160+0000)

that is true

good luck to nerf excessive damage on 140 champions though

Also Illaoi is telegraphed, yet successes right now even in high elo same for Nasus, and somewhat Mordekaiser and Udyr

Darius is just garbage

nasus and illaoi synergize well with klepto. thats the entire reason theyre so strong atm. when klepto was nerfed this patch, they both took a dip in winrate, and nasus is back to almost exactly 50%. its really only the keystone that made them decent picks, and not every juggernaut can use klepto well.

udyr can use basically any keytone of any tree to full effect, including klepto aswell. he has a ton of different playstiles to chose from, which is why i suspect hes doing well. his mini reworked not too long ago helped too.

cant say anything about morde. i dont play him enough.

SohleksFeb 5, 20181 votes

It's true that they kept kicking Darius while he was down and that they made Nasus stupid af. The overall point is still on point though. I agree with and have been saying that the low low time to kill (at least in laning phase it has gone down a lot due base stat changes) HURTS slow lower access champions.

And yeah I know you play a swell Mordekaiser and may say it's Fiiiine. Those other champions just suck. And you're also right, they kept nerfing Darius for no good reason. And life expectancy with the items juggers are expected to use is questionable. But let me highlight what happened with runes and base resists start of the season.

Start of the preseason most physical dmg carries and tanks gained 9 armor. Most AP dmg dealers gained 200 ish scaling hp. Many supports gained 20 armor, some of which got nerfed down some. This is the main reason why champions are getting blown up hard in laning phase. Because of a dark vs. light missmatch of resistances based on class. And its been fun for a time getting easier kills and farming less.

Mordekaiser taken bot lane for the most part his opponents got armor. Mordekaiser doesn't care. I suppose he got scaling hp. Which isn't good til later on I'll admit but it's better than nothing. Your dmg is doing well though and maybe you can cheese adc ghosts better than before.

Then we go top lane and see what a fighter is doing. The fighter gets 9 armor and so does his tank opponent. But... most tanks deal AP damage so the tank is getting the upperhand here. And it's true that armor is useful vs. minions and turrets ect but the tank is still winning out here when they were already more desirable and easier to play. Tanky base dmg (especially with like Ornn's) then proceed to smash the pathetic melee AD dmg dealers.

And both fighter and tank lose out here vs ranged magic dmg dealers with say aery keystone at the start of the game. Again worsening existing issues.

The exception to that is some higher reliability-usefulness burst divers (like Camille) cheesing better than before just to give the false impression that everythings ok.

All because of some arbitrary decision to give physical champions 9 armor and ap champions scaling hp because it resembled something in the old system... when it was used adaptively in the past, throwing balance totally oughta whack. Why wasn't resistance buffs baseline the same across the board with maybe extra to those that needed it..?

DragonSheaFeb 1, 20184 votes

True. I wonder how it can be done so the damage nerf's can be done right across the board.

Personally I'd say max HP should be increased for many champs. but I wonder other ideals could be used to bring damage down.

Z3SleeperFeb 1, 201812 votes

Items.

MimrFeb 1, 20185 votes

{quoted}

True. I wonder how it can be done so the damage nerf's can be done right across the board.

Personally I'd say max HP should be increased for many champs. but I wonder other ideals could be used to bring damage down.

I think a good start would be to increase health by about 25% across the board (base and items) and nerf %HP attacks in such a way they do as much damage as they do now in the current situation.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 1, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I think a good start would be to increase health by about 25% across the board (base and items) and nerf %HP attacks in such a way they do as much damage as they do now in the current situation.

or just nerf crit. Crit does too much dmg. ADCs do 1000+ dmg per auto with crit. 25% HP increase wont help.

Handy Sandy Feb 1, 20183 votes

I've never seen a Darius be deleted in 2-3 seconds. Not even 5 seconds.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 1, 201810 votes

{quoted}

I've never seen a Darius be deleted in 2-3 seconds. Not even 5 seconds.

mid-late?

Easily.

greekvandaLFeb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

mid-late?

Easily.

Cause he doesnt play darius only way to not gt instakilled is to rush a gargoyle second lol

General Esdeath Feb 2, 20182 votes

Veig stun into W Q R is a great example.

Vayne condemn into 3 autos while she has ult on is another good one.

KhristophorosFeb 1, 20181 votes

Darius' kit is badly designed because the only counterplay to him in a teamfight is overwhelm him with damage.

greekvandaLFeb 1, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Darius' kit is badly designed because the only counterplay to him in a teamfight is overwhelm him with damage.

It isnt unless you are bronze. Darius is extremenly easy to kite even if he has Ghost up.

KhristophorosFeb 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=toxicity creep,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lZ7tAK8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-01T14:07:39.693+0000)

It isnt unless you are bronze. Darius is extremenly easy to kite even if he has Ghost up.

The "counterplay" you're talking about is to not actually commit to a teamfight, but instead draft a poke comp and just never commit until you've worn him and his team down.

At that point it falls into the realm of strategy, not really counterplay, because most comps can't reliably do that because his team will be able to force engages unless you outdrafted them entirely. So it's entirely about counterpicking and having the right comp. Not about counterplay.

In teamfights you have to overwhelm him with damage otherwise he will just kill your frontline and then you have no frontline.

greekvandaLFeb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The "counterplay" you're talking about is to not actually commit to a teamfight, but instead draft a poke comp and just never commit until you've worn him and his team down.

At that point it falls into the realm of strategy, not really counterplay, because most comps can't reliably do that because his team will be able to force engages unless you outdrafted them entirely. So it's entirely about counterpicking and having the right comp. Not about counterplay.

In teamfights you have to overwhelm him with damage otherwise he will just kill your frontline and then you have no frontline.

All you gotta fucking do vs darius is dodge his Q and his grab which are both short range and have cast times. go somewhere else to cry not to a toplane main who actually has a lot of game on darius both with him and against him. Id rather take a darius who starts with phage and boots lvl 1rather shit like Kennen

SzGamer227Feb 1, 201811 votes

Darius has the three easiest weaknesses to play off of in the entire game: He's melee, he's immobile, and he's telegraphed. If such a situational champion is able to get on top of you for longer than 2 seconds, he deserves that kill.

KhristophorosFeb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Darius has the three easiest weaknesses to play off of in the entire game: He's melee, he's immobile, and he's telegraphed. If such a situational champion is able to get on top of you for longer than 2 seconds, he deserves that kill.

So what you're saying is if you're also melee you automatically deserve to lose? lmao

RainXBladeFeb 3, 20181 votes

Being Melee =/= Instantly Losing to Darius

There are certain ways on how you can play against Darius like dodging/baiting out his Q and/or E, engaging him when his Q's down, knowing when to back off when he has at least 3 stacks of his passive on you, or if you're a Yasuo with Mallet, you can just kite the bastard by Q'ing him, then stepping back.

If he gets his 5 stacks on you, then you deserved to be punished for extensively trading or underestimating him.

KhristophorosFeb 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Being Melee =/= Instantly Losing to Darius

There are certain ways on how you can play against Darius like dodging/baiting out his Q and/or E, engaging him when his Q's down, knowing when to back off when he has at least 3 stacks of his passive on you, or if you're a Yasuo with Mallet, you can just kite the bastard by Q'ing him, then stepping back.

If he gets his 5 stacks on you, then you deserved to be punished for extensively trading or underestimating him.

I don't think you guys are thinking about teamfights. You're thinking about laning vs him or dueling him... as a champ like Yasuo who can effectively move around and have a stupid amount of agency in a duel.

What do you do as a tank if Darius is slightly ahead and a teamfight breaks out? Assume that your team isn't doing enough damage to overwhelm him? You try to peel him, but that just gives him easy access to smack you around and get to 5 stacks on you. Tanks don't really have a lot of tools to move around him effectively in the middle of a teamfight. The only answer they have is hold him in place while the team burns him down. Once you can't burn him down it's over. That is what I'm talking about. He has to be numerically bad at teamfights to be balanced.

SyveFeb 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Darius' kit is badly designed because the only counterplay to him in a teamfight is overwhelm him with damage.

Explain this guy what a juggernaut means, please.

KhristophorosFeb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Explain this guy what a juggernaut means, please.

Ah yes the classic "It's his/her job!" defense, normally used by assassin mains to justify literally 1 shotting people out of leaps/blinks/stealths. Gotta love this mentality.

Now it's the juggernaut's job to just walk into a fight, shrug off literally everything thrown at him, while the enemy tanks (actual tanks) die before him, allowing him and his team full access to the enemy backline. "B B B BUT ITS HIS JOBBBBBB"

lmfao

To be clear, that's what happens when Darius is fed. That's what the OP of this thread wants to be achievable consistently. That's the Darius power fantasy.

My point is, this power fantasy cannot be both reliable and balanced at the same time.

YaskamasandwichFeb 1, 20181 votes

There could be other problems too, all those nerfs he got doesn't help either. However he might be that top lane nightmare again if they revert them. Best to maybe wait until that hopeful Juggernaut, Diver, etc. Masteries come.

One problem I think Darius has and it shares with Yasuo is that he has this lane bully + hyper carry fantasy going on. His dream is to get those penta dunks in the end. Kind of the Noxian all or nothing way that most share, Darius, Katarina, Swain. Which is hard to balance alone but he is also a lane bully? Honestly I think he needs to lose the lane bully aspect and go for the all in penta dunks late game fantasy. It may be balanced for him since he can get kited easier, and he is mainly melee that would require teamwork and team play to get those dunks. It would drop the problematic nightmare of dealing with him early game when he is fotm. Also remove him being useless late game problem. Maybe it would make him a common bottom lane canadate that Riot would like to open up.

RainbowIceeFeb 1, 20181 votes

Darius doesn't suck. The only champs that suck are Taric Varus and Ezreal

Tausif2002Feb 3, 20181 votes

Taric Extremely good if used right

Varus Amazing team fight ult and high damage that's hard to build around because of hybrid damage

Ezreal lol

RainbowIceeFeb 3, 20181 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/y62P0aQUYLYAg/giphy.gif

ZT XperimentorFeb 4, 20181 votes

Pretty much while us older players preferred seasons 2-5, teamfights revolved around minute long strategy, not a few seconds of instagibbing eachother.

SohleksFeb 5, 20181 votes

The way armor and health was added to certain champions when the preseason hit was super dumb.

9 armor to melee and adc champs and 200 scaling health to casters. Up to 20 armor to supports. How can you even wonder why the heck fighters are getting shit on by ap tanks in lane.? Or certain AP mages with aery?

Why did that happen. It should have been the same across the board for most champions with perhaps more to juggernauts that need survivability to even function.

The low survivability hurts short ranged sustained damage dealers OBVIOUSLY. They are bringing swords into gun fights.