Am I the only one who thinks the reworked mage items HURT mages as a whole? (Poll included)

Apostle of Light··123 votes·7,407 views

Items have lower AP? Mana regen gone? How is this helping?

Take item 3157 for example. This item will have 70 AP. That's 30 AP LOWER than before. It'll be entirely out of the high AP category. And what's being done to compensate? They're adding 10% CDR. But apparently that tradeoff is too good, so the active now has a 120s CD instead of 90s. So to round things up, it's 30 AP worse and 30s worse but now has 10% CDR to make you feel slightly better about buying it.

I understand that these changes/nerfs (as well as those to item 3027 and others) come with a lower build cost. But if the items are worse as a whole, mages' late game will be significantly worse than every other champion category.

Can anyone enlighten me as to how these changes help mages? Or is that not the point? Are mages meant to be weaker than their AD counterparts?

Sometimes I wonder.

253 Comments

L Psy Kongroo46 votes

What I hate most about the new items is that there's not a single reworked/new item with magic penetration on it. Right now, most mages are able to buy two items if they want magic pen: item 3135 and item 3020 . Of the other magic pen items, item 3001 is only worthwhile on a few specific mages that rely on up-close burst, and item 3151 damage is barely noticable even on tanks. Meanwhile AD champions got several new armor pen options from their item changes, but mages get nothing.

M0RDEKA1SER18 votes

Have you seen the difference between a normal Teemo shroom and a item 3151 shroom?

L Psy Kongroo4 votes

{quoted}

Have you seen the difference between a normal Teemo shroom and a item 3151 shroom?

Teemo is one of the worst champions in the game atm, so it doesn't matter.

M0RDEKA1SER30 votes

That... Didn't even answer my question. Rude.

Anyway, the difference is insane, just test it in a custom. Unless you stack MR, you're going to lose 1/4 your HP per shroom.

junglerboy1620 votes

That's because of the AP and % health burn in addition to the flat pen. Not to mention that shrooms apply the double burn and reapply it several times over the duration.

A better comparison would be normal Teemo shroom vs item 3136 Teemo shroom. Yes there's a difference, but that little bit of extra pen doesn't help as much as many mages need.

Shadragon5 votes

It's the magic penetration and the 80 AP that are making a difference there, not the Liandry's burn. There is not a single realistic scenario where Liandry's Torment does meaningful damage. Even unrealistic scenarios that are incredibly biased in favor of the burn still churn out horribly low numbers.

You'd think that if you pump up a target's HP enough and lower their MR enough, eventually Liandry's will do some crazy high DPS, right? But it doesn't, because it deals %current HP, and it doesn't apply until after the target gets nuked by whatever spell triggered Liandry's, and it deals damage in half-second ticks so any amount of MR can just nullify it completely. The more AP you have, the weaker Liandry's burn gets. The more MR your target has, the weaker Liandry's burn gets. The more damage the burn does, the weaker it gets.

I remember doing the math for Malzahar's E back when Liandry's burn got buffed. On a movement impaired target with 3000 health and 0 effective MR, using a max rank E with only Liandry's for AP, the Liandry's burn did less than 70 damage over its full duration. Teemo's mushrooms would be significantly less, since the DoT duration is the same, but has a higher base damage and AP ratio.

As a testament to how horribly weak this item's effect is, there was an entire patch where it literally did not function at all, and nobody noticed until the patch notes said it was fixed.

tl;dr Liandry's sucks, the burn is the worst effect in the game, the item is only good because it gives Mpen.

Zenthon Prime19 votes

RIP DFG

Ironically, old DFG is probably better than literally any mage item in the game after this rework.

Dreampod16 votes

Old DFG is probably better than literally any mage item in the game NOW.

There is a reason it got removed from the game.

Laughing Fish19 votes

item 3070 Garen item 3070

Durfain21 votes

Nah it's fine just learn AD champions! Easier last hitting, access to better itemization, easier snowball potential. Time to spam Graves!

Jet Sett11 votes

{quoted}

Time to spam Graves!

item 3070 Graves item 3070 I miss the days when he wasn't an op pick or ban champ, about 6 months ago. ;-;

EvilRabbitt11 votes

Fiora Mind if I join you? I miss old Fi item 3070 item 3070

Jet Sett4 votes

{quoted}

Fiora Mind if I join you? I miss old Fi item 3070 item 3070

item 3070 Fiora item 3070 item 3070 Graves item 3070 Ekko item 3070

The gang's all here...

PDE5 Inhib10 votes

Old Ekko?

You do realize it's the same Ekko...

Heckin Support7 votes

Ekko went from supposed to be an assassin to being a tank who is unkitable, out damages, and out lives just about anyone. It's riot's fault for giving an assassin such high utility.

A Miss Fortune15 votes

Ekko was only really an Assassin the first few days he was released. He's pretty much always been seriously played as a Tank, because the only difference is that Tank Ekko is like fighting a mobile Tahm with GA.

Dominick Destine17 votes

Zhonya's will also be cheaper so that's a plus.

Buff to Hextech gunblade is nice.

Apostle of Light33 votes

I like that it's cheaper but I'm worried about the late game. If I'm playing someone like Xerath or Ziggs, idk if it's worth keeping a 70AP item in my full build when my main job is to deal as much damage as possible.

Dominick Destine21 votes

{quoted}

I like that it's cheaper but I'm worried about the late game.

It's meant to be a strong nerf to its late game. They've been destroying Zhonya's' late game for like 4 years straight, this is the coup de grace.

RocketRelm11 votes

Admittedly, the phrasing you gave of "-30 AP, and nerf to active cd, with ONLY 10% cdr to compensate" strongly implies a 100% ignoring of the "also 500 gp cheaper" and "easier build path".

Sure, it's weaker in a 40+ minute 6 item build game, but those rarely happen, and Abyssal which was a must-buy on most mages anyway is receiving an increase in weight so there's your tradeoff in end-game builds.

Vistha Kai19 votes

You are ignoring more than just that.

It's exactly as much gold and with nearly half the AP it had, before Riot started hating on mages and their items. The price reduction doesn't even come close to compensate for this massive nerf.

lunien1 votes

There's no reason for Riot to begin hating one class, and favoring another. On the contrary, Riot wants that everyone are able to be rested with their main champs (whatever class it may be in), so that more people will play LoL, because they enjoy it, and not just because they like to play OP champions. They aren't tyrants, that just want to hurt everybody playing their game. Instead, they try to make more people play LoL, since it's their game and they don't want people to go crazy about OP stuff. But peace won't come, if they begin favoring one part of the community over another.

Vistha Kai3 votes

You can be that gullible.

ADCs are mandatory since season 1. You can do fine without a tank, or a support, or a mage, but without an ADC you can't contest a Baron or Dragon, nor siege properly. There was literally no reason to buff them and their itemization across the board so hard, seeing 3 ADCs in one team isn't seen as trolly, uncommon or bad. To the point they outscale every other class by level 6.

Now we have mage update that's a nerf to every "pure" mage involved, minus those meant to receive significant updates about which, with one exception, we know nothing. Even so, it's like 8 mages out of, what, 40? 50?

Echous2 votes

My favorite defense Xerpheous posted for these item changes was the help the give support-mages.

THIS IS THE MID SEASON MIDLANE MAGE UPDATE AND WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT SUPPORT MANA POOLS?! WTF RITO?!! !!

mike in the box2 votes

I only hear this refereed to as the mid season mage up date. no reference to midlane

junglerboy164 votes

The new niche they're pushing it towards is a rush defensive item, which is how people have been trying to use it for years. Honestly, having major defensive capabilities on an item should come at the cost of a weaker stat line, or else you risk a binary item that is always OP (which Zhonya's used to be).

Serika Zero10 votes

Tell that to mercurial scimtar, maw and gage. All defensive items for ads giving almost the same Ad of infinity

Malix Farwin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7ecJPEbG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-11T20:05:54.693+0000)

Zhonya's will also be cheaper so that's a plus.

Buff to Hextech gunblade is nice.

has to be a lot cheaper

Vistha Kai4 votes

Now you will be able to get Zhonya after your 4th death to Zed, instead of 5th. What's not to love!

Kitten of Evil13 votes

I absolutely hate the change from mana regen into flat mana. No other class is literally useless without mana, and for some reason, all other classes also have ways to get it back (item 3508), low mana costs (Vayne Darius), or are actually resourceless (Zed Yasuo Rengar) meaning they are only gated by cooldowns (mages also have cooldown gating, by the way). In many of these cases, the non mana-gated champions don't even give up anything meaningful for making that choice.

Even if I can cast 4 or 5 rotations of my spells before I'm out of mana, there is nothing less satisfying than playing an OOM mage--except, perhaps, playing a juggernaut against a Kalista.

The Loveless3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7ecJPEbG,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-04-11T21:11:07.770+0000)

I absolutely hate the change from mana regen into flat mana. No other class is literally useless without mana

That's the point of having mana, and needing mana or mana regen, so you don't become useless. (Lol?)

Most mages are ranged as well.

Voluug135 votes

In a world of ADC overlords and hypermobility, being ranged alone (aka without extremely powerful AAs) is worth nothing.

That's the point of having mana, and needing mana or mana regen, so you don't become useless. (Lol?)

yeah but take into account around 50% of the mage rooster's kits are made with flat mana in mind. The rest has kits massively dependant on mana regen, like Syndra, Orianna and Ziggs. Who will probably be trash unless they reduce their mana costs massively, or make complete rework to the entire Mana Regen mages into AP burst/assassins.

Riot's entire ''we want Mages' casts to be more more meaninful instead of just spam with 'infinite mana''' entire premise is horribly flawed because for years they have been pumping mages that have different kits with very different spell weights and mana efficiency. They cant just go and reduce/remove mana regen and except mages to literally fight against the current because while AD champions get ludicrously good itemization.

Riot just saying ''cast wisely, mages lolololololol'' wont magically make Syndra's Q, Orianna's Q or Karma's Q deal more damage.

The Loveless5 votes

JHC wait for the mage update. Most of the primary mages were mentioned and some 2ndary mages too.

lunien2 votes

Thing is, they're adding one ingredient item and reworking three, that all will have mana-sustain passives.

** Catalyst of Aeons** item 3010

Valor's Reward passive removed New Passive - Eternity: 15% of damage taken from champion is gained as Mana. 20% of Mana spent is gained as Health. (Healing limited to 25 15 per spell cast or 25 15 per second for toggled spells.)* Catalyst loses quite a bit of free early lane pressure here - however, it enables a very powerful engine - turning mana to health and health to mana while brawling with other champions.

Tear of the Goddess item 3070

Mana Regeneration: 25% --> 0% Additional Passive - Awe: Refunds 25% of Mana spent Tear of the Goddess has always been the go to spot for a ludicrous mana pool. However, paradoxically - it also favors very low cost spells in order to stack it up. This iteration swaps out the minor regeneration for a very powerful effective mana cost reduction for truly painful spells.

The Awe passive is kept on every Tear of the Goddess upgrade. Because the mana is refunded - Catalyst's passive will still act at full power.

Lost Chapter (NEW)

Recipe: Sapphire Crystal + Amplifying Tome + 115 Gold = 900 Total Gold 25 Ability Power 250 Mana Unique Passive: Upon levelling up, restores 20% of your maximum mana over 3 seconds. Catalyst is a decent item to support brawlers but the old passive had its merits in sustaining an aggression pattern in lane. This additional item is intended to support very aggressive lane patterns by providing some of the old pressure patterns that Catalyst enabled while still fulfilling a mage's primary damage line.

Chalice of Harmony item 3028

Passive remade: Increases your Health Regeneration by 100% if your Health % is lower than your Mana %. Increases your Mana Regeneration by 100% if your Mana % is lower than your Health %. Mikael's Crucible and Athene's Unholy Grail gain this passive instead of Mana Font One of the relationships I want to break up with this pass is the attachment of Flat Mana to Mana Regeneration. Additionally, we're going to siphon some of the sustain out of bot lane in 6.9 and thus introducing a fairly powerful option to solve whatever sustain that you need early on.

Mandang011 votes

Mages don't scale as well as ADCs do, so they're more dependent on base damage and penetration. When Riot introduced buffed MR itemization this season, mages got hit pretty hard. Riot finally fixes that, but then they turn around and flip AP itemization on its head for no reason.

Why is the new Grail even a thing in a world where supports laning mid is frowned upon and supports building carry is equally detested?

Vistha Kai7 votes

I would love that to be true, but I just faced an ADC mid while I was playing a mage.

1v1 Mage should win, right?

No, first thing that happens is mage getting shoved to the tower, losing either most CS or mana farming. ADC just keeps on pushing, gets one singular item and outscales a mage... by level 6. By level 10 an ADC can fight a mage straight on and win, even while being behind.

ModWulf Helhammer8 votes

And you're seeing less then half of the changes and dong calculations with soon to be outdated numbers

Voluug1314 votes

Honestly the biggest problem is the premise and the direction of the changes.

Its like Riot forgets that not every mage is Annie/Veigar that throw their entire combo and are useless for 10s. Like they dont want mages to ever do something that lasts more that the 5-10 casts the have because flat mana.

They have released several mages that shine in extended fights, use a lot of continuous mana and were designed and balanced around Athene's and similar manaregen items.

Those changes basically dump on half the mage rooster (utility, sustained and poke/siege mages) while it barely benefits burst mages and greatly benefits AP assassins.

Anivia Azir Cassiopeia Karma Orianna Syndra Syndra Syndra Xerath Ziggs Zilean None of those are part of the MYMU, most are already mediocre or terrible picks (at best good) and probably will be the most affected negatively by those changes.

Snake Town8 votes

While a agree, to be fair Anivia Cassiopeia Syndra Xerath Ziggs are part of the MYMU

Zenthon Prime5 votes

Even with decent changes, I can't see Xerath, Ziggs or Syndra being even semi-viable in a world where mana-regen is garbage. Maybe Xerath can survive if they buff the hell out of his passive, but at that point I'd worry he becomes overpowered.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Xyhperpus has said that some mages won't be entirely in the best spot with the new items, particularly siege mages, and that some (namely Xerath, as that was the one I used in my examples to him) not really suited by them at all. However, he said that there is still going to be changes needed after the whole update settles down. And while I don't really like that timeframe, I do believe that they will end up just as good as they were before.

Zenthon Prime7 votes

Well, when your main is already suffering (hello tank-assassins my old friends) and is about to get beaten into the dirt by the nerf hammer, you tell me how nice it sounds when Rioters tell you that they aren't going to bother doing anything for weeks or months after the update. I feel like Malicious Metal right now. ;(

This mage item update shouldn't have really been that hard to pull off, but Riot is apparently better at screwing up item updates than DIG was at throwing at Baron.

Mage itemization is pretty frickin' easy to understand: rush a mana regen / CDR item with decent AP, then a full damage / utility item, then Deathcap / Void Staff, then a defensive item. I would have handled it by adding more options other than Morellonomicon and Athene's for mana, and more options for damage/utility other than Luden's (which they actually did, in the Hextech items). Then I'd work on low-AP magic pen items for low-AP mages like Brand, Teemo and Vel'Koz.

I'm also worried Riot might try just buffing the hell out of Xerath/Ziggs/etc. to keep them viable, but that could lead to some really unhealthy gameplay where they feel bad to play (no mana) and equally bad to play against (absurd damage).

ModWulf Helhammer6 votes

I main Xerath and Quinn since mid season 4. Tell me I don't know what it's like to have my main screwed over.

And the more I think about it, the more I see why they are changing it up like this, and really, apart from the mana regen changes, I like everything that seems to be happening so far. They are trying to make each mage vastly different then another, something that the class has struggled with for a very long time, and keeping itemization the same wasn't going to do that, and just sticking CDR somewhere was just going to make the class too powerful.

(Also I rarely had a problem with assassins as Xerath)

Zenthon Prime5 votes

Ouch, Quinn too. I'm sorry mate. I never had serious issues with assassins either until recently, with Maw making trading a lot harder. And of course tanks.

The issue in my eyes is that I have no reason to trust Riot after two bad item updates in a row. We just finished dealing with the issues created by the juggernaut update, and we're nowhere close to fixing preseason's mess. I don't have a reason to believe them when they say it will work this time.

Dreampod3 votes

Part of the problem with those champions is that they've gotten nerfed over and over BECAUSE of the current item framework. Ziggs being able to infinite waveclear by purchasing a single item is deeply problematic and as a result he got beat with the nerfstick like a pinata. In a world where he actually has a cost to indiscriminately throwing bombs, his bombs are able to be more powerful.

Don't get me wrong, there is going to be a period of amazing pain while all the outliers get buffed and nerfed but in the long run I think it will work out.

Linna Excel6 votes

Considering a lot of champs have a pretty low AP ratio, a loss of 30 isn't going to be huge. I hope. Ahri is going to lose 21 magic damage on her Q and 21 true damage. So if you get zhonya's and Q a wave of minions, that's going to do about 252 less damage before magic resist. That sounds big but I don't know how much it'll impact her.

On the up side, the item is cheaper.

Apostle of Light17 votes

I just hope they consider buffing AP ratios of mages because atm, mages already feel weak compared to everyone else IMO. Having even less AP in their builds will just amplify that.

redniwediS13 votes

That's not necessarily a mage problem. That feeling ends up with two conclusions, either mages are weak or everyone else is too strong.

Personally I lean more toward the latter opinion.

Apostle of Light10 votes

I do agree that many champions are too strong atm.

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