Why doesn't irvern get full gold from krugs??

lolipopevelynn·Dec 9, 2016·44 votes·3,045 views

He only gets the gold for the two initial krugs, but none for the baby krugs after those two. Is there a reason for this?

41 Comments

EndlessSorcererDec 9, 201622 votes

The extra gold and experience are a reward for the extra time required to clear them.

Ivern doesn't take any extra time to clear them, so he doesn't get the bonus.

Riot has stated that this is the intended behaviour.

Lux Is Mai WaifuDec 9, 20169 votes

We all know this is a lie and they just can't be assed to code it.

It Hertz When IPDec 10, 20162 votes

Shhhhhhhhh

DrCyanideDec 9, 201611 votes

Even if it's intended, that's behavior that lacks summoner 13

LostFr0stDec 9, 201614 votes

Yeah, the reason is that he also doesn't have to spend 5 years clearing them.

lolipopevelynnDec 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the reason is that he also doesn't have to spend 5 years clearing them.

really doesnt take that long to clear krugs unless ur single target like ww or shaco. And even still, assuming he used smite on his buffs or a gank, he still has to wait on his passive. So that reasoning is completely invalid.

People always forget that there is a wait time on irverns passive if your smite is down...

LostFr0stDec 9, 20166 votes

I'm talking about the physical time clearing the camp with the jungler beside it without tiamat. Ivern can be somewhere else while he's "clearing " the camp, the other junglers can't. They told us it was intended when they changed the jungle, since the bonus exp and gold was for spending more time there.

lolipopevelynnDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm talking about the physical time clearing the camp with the jungler beside it without tiamat. Ivern can be somewhere else while he's "clearing " the camp, the other junglers can't. They told us it was intended when they changed the jungle, since the bonus exp and gold was for spending more time there.

you dont understand how irvern works. Everything you just said is not true. He can't "clear a camp while being somewhere else" he literally has to wait for his CD

LostFr0stDec 9, 201611 votes

He clicks it, procs passive stands there while the animation plays and walks away. (unless smiting it) He comes back and takes the camp later after he goes for a loooong walk. I know how it works, I'm saying krugs in particular doesn't have a different camp clear time to Ivern compared to other champs where Krugs have a significantly longer clear time compared to gromp, red, blue, wolves, etc. Ivern isn't "at Krugs" while he clears it. He's anywhere but there on the map.

TeCoolMageDec 10, 20163 votes

oh god if christmasevelynn has been playing ivern by standing still for 30 seconds without moving just to take one camp I'm going to laugh

ErinTheKnightDec 10, 20166 votes

{quoted}

you dont understand how irvern works. Everything you just said is not true. He can't "clear a camp while being somewhere else" he literally has to wait for his CD

YOU dont understand how Ivern works. Iven sets down his grove, ganks bot, perhaps marks scuttle, then picks up krugs. The whole POINT of ivern is to be somewhere else while "Farming"

lolipopevelynnDec 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Grand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7afRuErn,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-10T04:00:45.280+0000)

YOU dont understand how Ivern works. Iven sets down his grove, ganks bot, perhaps marks scuttle, then picks up krugs. The whole POINT of ivern is to be somewhere else while "Farming"

he doesn't get any exp or gold until he goes back to get those groves. The enemy jungler can easily come in and steal his shit while he is ganking. Junglers that don't give a flying shit about irvern and can easily steal his groves? Shyvana Shaco Udyr Khazix Rengar just off the top of my head. All of these champs, can very easily abuse irvern in his own jg to a point that his team has to hold his hand to protect HIM. As a matter of fact, his bushes just helps rengar kill him more easily.

Honestly, its a handicap more than anything. the sooner people realize counter jungling is still a thing, the sooner they will realize how handicapped irvern actually is as a jungler.

Latex ChokerDec 10, 20162 votes

If Udyr Shyvana and Shaco are bullying you as Ivern you're doing it WAY wrong. In fact, Ivern is one of the few junglers who can go toe-to-toe with the 5 champions you listed once he hits 6 (And Ivern WILL hit 6 before them, it's his thing.) And escaping them early game is pretty easy (Root + Shield slow makes it extremely difficult to take down an Ivern in his own jungle)

AstôlfoDec 9, 20164 votes

And then you realize the fucking Grove growth time takes far longer than most junglers take for each clear.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 9, 20164 votes

And that before you can claim it, somebody else has taken it. Sometimes the enemy jungler, because they know you're Ivern, but mostly your ally bot lane :/

StrikerX22Dec 10, 20161 votes

Yeah... I don't know enough about him to say whether it's balanced, but one option they could do is increase Grove culmination speed while you stay near it. Not to a great rate, but at least to some "compromise" rate, so you can target things without necessitating smite, so you make sure you at least do get a group of camps.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 10, 20161 votes

That would honestly be awesome. Ivern is incredibly strong because he can just click and gank, gank, gank, then go back and reap his rewards. But any jungler that isn't stupid knows Ivern will only be level two before he ganks or backs, because he has to wait a minute to claim his first camps. They can just go in there and clear his camps or duel him because he'll be a lower level. He's so easy to counterjungle. Which is intended, but frustrating.

With the exp/gold loss on razorbeaks, the exp/gold loss on kruggs, and his lvl 1 cheese taken away, Ivern got considerable indirect nerfs when the jungle changed. You used to be able to steal the enemy's blue right under their noses if they didn't have it warded while they were being leashed on Gromp. Now, however, they forced junglers to start on the buffs so he can't do it.

They also nerfed his E pretty damn hard. Like, it wasn't unwarranted, but there's not really a reason to pick him after all this. I think the change you suggested would be more QoL and give him back some power, even if it's small.

LostFr0stDec 10, 20161 votes

That's something they can leverage if his power goes down. He doesn't exactly have room for buffs right now :P

ChaoticPineconeDec 10, 20164 votes

Heres why the logic just doesnt work, no matter how you want to look at it:

Most other junglers differ by clear speed on certain camps - some junglers take wraiths fast (Hecarim), some take Gromp fast (Volibear). The only one that seems to slow down some of the faster clears is Krugs, due to the respawn mechanic, while completely crippling single-target damage junglers.

First, Ivern doesnt take any camp "fast" - he has a static cooldown on his passive. So while other junglers can take little time clearing camps but get held up at Krugs, Ivern gets a static clear on all camps. There is no camp that Ivern is "good" at, but there is no camp that Ivern is "bad" at. Thats why letting him have the bonus XP and Gold from the mini Krugs isnt really a huge advantage over other junglers from a kit-perspective.

Secondly, it doesnt make sense that this type of XP/Gold punishment exists only at Krugs. Wraiths give less XP than Gromp or Red/Blue. We dont see Ivern getting less XP for Gromp just because he can clear it as fast as every other camp, right? We dont see him get more XP at Wraiths just because he takes longer to clear them, right?

Thirdly, yes, Ivern can be somewhere else when clearing. Thats part of his unique gameplay. We assume that he is balanced around this, with the cooldowns/health cost/mana cost of his passive, along with being able to steal camps after he sets up a grove but before he acquires it. We assume that this is balanced around gameplay.

Basically what I'm saying is that it doesnt make any sense. There are high clear champions, there are low clear champions. There are fast-push champs and slow-push champs. Never before has any champ received less gold or XP for clearing quickly.

LostFr0stDec 10, 20161 votes

But Ivern doesn't even interact with the Lesser Krugs, they don't exist for him.

There is a varying exp system already. If someone is behind, the camps give that person more exp. It's not like the ahead jungler ever sees such a bonus or has a right to complain about them "holding him back."

ChaoticPineconeDec 10, 20161 votes

The current varying EXP system "boost" is when someone is a lower level. Ivern is the ONLY champion in the entire game that gets a EXP punishment from clearing a camp when he is the same level. In fact in somecases when Ivern is a lower level, he gets less EXP from clearing Krugs than a higher-level jungler, since the lessers give 60 EXP. (but this is a side note - I'm not talking about the EXP when behind. I'm talking about EXP in general - at the same level, no other jungler faces this kind of EXP punishment. Even Nidalee and her stupid fast clears gets the same EXP from every camp as Warwick and his slow clears).

And thats not even taking into account the gold.

AstôlfoDec 9, 20162 votes

So what?

PennsDec 9, 20162 votes

Well, he doesnt.. And he is already pretty broken so..

Sona x RubickDec 9, 20164 votes

because he's already broken

AstôlfoDec 9, 20163 votes

It's obviously a bug.

EndlessSorcererDec 9, 20166 votes

Actually, Riot stated it was intended.

Riot Exgeniar Intended. He gets to bypass the intended long clear time of Krugs, so he gets less payout.

AstôlfoDec 9, 20162 votes

That's stupid.

lolipopevelynnDec 9, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Riot stated it was intended.

stupid reasoning because it doesn't take long for champs like Shyvana to clear it at all. Infact its less time than a red buff. i tested it.

not only that, but like I said before, if your smite is down you have to wait for your grove to grow. So that actually takes MORE time than just clearing it straight up with a aoe champ.

TwinkieProDec 10, 20162 votes

The thing is that ivern can set his passive on 3 camps, then rotate back and clear them all in a fairly quick and safer manner than any other champ. No fear of dying to jungle camps for him.

AstôlfoDec 10, 20162 votes

And no other jungler fears dying to them either really. On the other hand, other junglers also clear far faster than Ivern and can easily steal his camps.

Tyrant MorganaDec 9, 20163 votes

Mostly because Ivern doesnt kill anything in the Jungle except for Rift Herald, Dragons and Barons. Every other Creep is freed by him. So by not killing a Krug, Mr. and Mrs. Krug wont reprocreate and have little Krug-Kiddies.

Phyuq YiuDec 10, 20162 votes

When you play Ivern it's like "wtf?". But when you get totally shitstomped by every Ivern, even first time Iverns and he a common ban in high elo and they are talking nerfs it's fine :)

4th3t0sDec 10, 20161 votes

foolish oversight on preseason jungle changes, that's all

Shadow HazardDec 10, 20161 votes

One this is a planned limiter for him. Two are you really complaining about one of THE most broken junglers currently having a limiter?

Chembaron YamadaDec 10, 20161 votes

Ok, I want to point it out again. This is intended behaviour, because Ivern doesn't have to spend extra time to clear Krugs.

If you disagree with that statement, keep the following in mind: Granting these bonus xp and gold to Ivern would mean a buff. There is absolutely no justification for a buff for Ivern, that guy has a winrate of 54,97% in the jungle. He needs nerfs, not buffs. They even just nerfed Ivern this patch and it didn't drag his winrate down, it is still rising.

FoxstepDec 10, 20161 votes

55% winrate, PLS RITO BUFF HIM Is this thread for real? He is super strong and benefits from the new jungle so hard and now you are asking why he gets less gold for Krugs he does in less time then everyone else?

FoxstepDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

55% winrate, PLS RITO BUFF HIM Is this thread for real? He is super strong and benefits from the new jungle so hard and now you are asking why he gets less gold for Krugs he does in less time then everyone else?

Ivern should get less gold and exp for every game he just absorbs.

rtbf76109271Dec 10, 20161 votes

Probably an oversight from the programmers. Fixing it would be a buff but it doesnt make sense the way it is now. Should be consistent, same gold and exp for everyone. He should also be nerfed but thats a different topic i suppose

Teridax68Dec 10, 20161 votes

It's intended, even if it's extremely messy and breaks his theme. Krugs are a camp that give extra large rewards, and making him complete it with a single Grove would give him far too much of an early advantage, when he's already extremely strong. Personally, I think the solution at this point should just be to normalize all of the large camps and reduce their power and rewards, which would not only allow Ivern to clear them properly in one go, but also prevent early game junglers from dominating as hard as they are now, with the painfully strong early level 3 ganks those camps give them.

Count ZubatDec 10, 20161 votes

Because he is the only jungler who doesn't need any effort to clear camps as well as doesn't have to ever risk being executed. Btw, it baffles me how Riot released Ivern nearly at the end of previous season and yet had to transfer the exp from raptors to krugs in order to balance JUST HIM and so screwed up the balance and allowed Krugs/Red lvl 3 cheese... Like fuck, they clearly already knew how they are going to change jungle, they could have either think off how to balance his passive beforehand or wait with his release 'till preseason...