A detailed look at Penetration and Resistances, and the disparity between armor and magic resist

Lightningfst··10 votes·1,841 views

I'm sure I'm not the first person to comment on this topic, but the changes in itemization for MR vs Armor feel very lopsided and cumbersome. I'll explain.

Armor pros: Incremental buy steps (cloth armor to chain vest) allows for different tiers of armor bought with multiple price points. Price points are easy to buy (300, 720) for first 2 tiers of armor items. Can buy an armor item at level 1, which can then be upgraded in mid-late game. Upgrade path makes sense and has clarity. Several good late game options with varying utility. Large armor range for available items (15 - 100 armor available). Can stack massive armor in a single item slot (Thornmail, Frozen Heart at 100 armor each) Almost all late game items are useful with their active/passive abilities in some capacity.

Armor cons: Randuin's Omen is arguably the best in slot for value of armor/tanky stats for it's cost and item build path. (700 HP, 70 armor, bite sized prices to build this item), which does not encourage item diversity.

MR Pros: Only 1 MR item required for each late game item leaves less chance of making an item purchase mistake.

MR Cons: No multiple tiers of base MR items (which also means no upgrade path of base MR items). No late game items use multiple instances of the single base MR item (one null-magic mantle in each item build) Low MR stats for mid game and late game items with a very small range (25 - 55 MR available). Cannot start with an MR item at level 1 unless you go deep utility mastery tree, which leaves no room for any other items or consumables. Very difficult and expensive to stack MR. Getting 100 MR without filling up all your item slots with null-magic mantles would require 2 late-game items in the range of 6-7k gold. Magic penetration is more efficient than Armor penetration because of the cost to get MR vs the cost to get Armor, plus the base penetration stats are higher on Magic Pen items vs Armor Pen items.

Brutalizer - 1337g for 10 Armor Pen Ghostblade - 2700g for 20 Armor Pen Black Cleaver - 3000g for 10 Armor Pen and up to 25% Armor Reduction Last Whisper - 2300g for 35% ignore Armor before Armor Pen

Haunting Guise - 1485g for 15 Magic Pen Sorcerer's Shoes - 1100g for 15 Magic Pen Abyssal Scepter - 2400g for 20 Magic Reduction AoE (arguably Pen) Void staff - 2295g for 35% ignore Magic Resist before Magic Pen

30 Armor Pen (Brutalizer + Ghost Blade) = 4037g (134.567g per point of Armor Pen) 30 Magic Pen (Haunting Guise + Sorcerer's Shoes) = 2585g (81.167g per point of Magic Pen)

(Yes I am aware that the Armor Pen items also have higher damage stats than their Magic Pen Counterparts)

Cost of Armor - 55 armor for 1050g in 2 item slots OR 45 armor for 1050g in 1 item slot Cost of Magic Resist - 50 MR for 1000g in 2 item slots. No single item slot options available.

Alternatively, to directly counteract the penetration stats you could also consider this: Cost to directly counteract Armor Pen: 600g for 2 cloth armor (30 armor total) Cost to directly counteract Magic Pen: 1000g for 2 null-magic mantles (50 MR total), OR 1200g for Spectre's Cowl (35 MR) - there is no low-cost way to 1:1 counteract the penetration stat.

Conclusion: While the cost of armor and magic resist at base levels are relatively comparable, Magic Penetration is much easier to buy. Armor penetration is 65.7% more expensive than magic penetration based on a cost of 134.567 gold per point of armor penetration compared to 81.167 gold per point of magic penetration. Add to this less base items to buy magic resist in different intervals (another disparity of 66.7% cost at the lowest level to match or exceed the respective penetration stats - 600g for armor compared to 1000g for magic resist) and what we have is that magic based abilities are much harder to itemize against than physical damage based abilities when the opponent stacks penetration items.

Ways this can be fixed:

  1. Increase the diversity of magic resist items at the base level to match closely with armor items. Going back to 2 base items will allow for fixing the defensive price point. If the null-magic mantle were to also be put as an upgrade to lets say the 'negatron cloak' that was recently removed, a consistency could be established between the armor and magic resist stats.

  2. Increase the overall cost to acquire magic penetration stats to be in line with armor penetration. This can be done by either decreasing the amount of magic penetration on an item (for instance reducing Haunting Guise magic penetration from 15 to 10), increasing the cost of the item (and thereby increasing the stats of that item to compensate) or some combination of both (keeping an item's cost the same while adjusting the stats accordingly).

  3. Increase the range of the magic resist stat on items. From a current range of 25-55, lowering the bottom end and increasing the top end can give greater diversity of item choices and build paths.

TL;DR This is a case argument that analyzes a cost efficiency ratio disparity between armor penetration and magic penetration. The numbers come out to the cost of armor penetration is 65.7% more expensive than magic penetration and that magic resist can be up to 66.7% more expensive to counteract magic penetration from items, with fewer good high MR options.

29 Comments

SmokingPuffin5 votes

Let me punt on doing the detailed analysis of defensive itemization.

Instead, let me ask a more basic question: why is it desirable for armor and MR to be equally effective at mitigating damage?

Lightningfst2 votes

By all accounts the system in place looks like they are supposed to be relatively balanced, at least at early levels - but they aren't.

As to why, well when you buy an item, you want the player to feel the effect of having that item. If I am trying to itemize against magic damage, and I spend 7 minutes worth of early game farm to buy magic resist, I want that magic resist to feel like it is doing something useful.

What is actually happening is that the magic resist expenditure isn't really feeling like it is doing enough, and if you read my post in it's entirety you will understand that penetration items for magic damage are far cheaper to acquire which has a stronger effect of nullifying the experience of buying magic resist (and systematically I believe that Magic Pen is in a superior place right now with regard to bang-for-buck, which can have a drastic effect on gameplay favoring mages).

SmokingPuffin5 votes

By all accounts the system in place looks like they are supposed to be relatively balanced, at least at early levels - but they aren't.

This is by design. Magic damage and physical damage have different windows of strength. You should be more scared of magic damage in the midgame and physical damage in the late game.

penetration items for magic damage are far cheaper to acquire which has a stronger effect of nullifying the experience of buying magic resist

Far from nullifying the experience, the best counter for flat MPen is flat MR. Much better than health. Those who are purchasing flat MPen are hoping for their targets to have as little MPen as possible.

systematically I believe that Magic Pen is in a superior place right now with regard to bang-for-buck

I don't buy this. Brutalizer (900g of AD + 317g of CDR => 120g for 10 arpen) buys pen considerably more cheaply than Haunting Guise (533g of HP + 544g of AP => 515g for 15 mpen). This story is repeated elsewhere; mpen costs more per point than arpen does by a considerable margin.

The only way you're getting the math to say that mpen is cheaper is disregarding all the stats on the arpen items.

which can have a drastic effect on gameplay favoring mages.

I don't have any evidence of this. We're not playing League of Mages today and heavy AD comps are more common than heavy AP comps.

Drogmyre3 votes

I don't buy this. Brutalizer (900g of AD + 317g of CDR => 120g for 10 arpen) buys pen considerably more cheaply than Haunting Guise (533g of HP + 544g of AP => 515g for 15 mpen). This story is repeated elsewhere; mpen costs more per point than arpen does by a considerable margin.

However, Armor is easier to itemize for. Much easier. Arpen being cheaper doesn't mean that Mpen isn't stronger. Both arpen and armor are cheaper than MR and Mpen, it's basically apples and oranges.

I don't have any evidence of this. We're not playing League of Mages today and heavy AD comps are more common than heavy AP comps.

Because Marksmen are mandatory, by divine fiat of Riot. Non-ADC bot lanes are gimmicks at best, this hasn't changed since S1.

Mid lane is currently being shit on by Zed, who is monstrously OP. Sorry if you like him, he's broken as fuck and is far too dominant.

Jungle is currently favoring high AS champions like Udyr/Xin with Devourer and AD casters like Pantheon, along with old favorites like J4. Mage junglers aren't super common, and it's not like Riot is buffing Nautilus anytime soon.

Top lane is pretty much a toss up, but since Ryze is no longer FotM, I see more AD top such as Gnar than I do AP.

To be more concise: Mages/AP champions aren't popular because the meta favors AD/AS champions more. In addition, some FotM champions (pantheon, Zed, etc.) are AD, thus skewing the ratio of AD/AP far to the AD side of the equation.

Also, just as a side note that I found interesting: MR runes give more MR than Armor runes do (36 to 38) and a full page of MR runes is more valuable than many MR items (in terms of MR.)

SmokingPuffin4 votes

However, Armor is easier to itemize for. Much easier.

Must be so. Armor stacking is a necessary thing for tanks every game.

To be more concise: Mages/AP champions aren't popular because the meta favors AD/AS champions more. In addition, some FotM champions (pantheon, Zed, etc.) are AD, thus skewing the ratio of AD/AP far to the AD side of the equation.

Given that the meta currently favors physical damage, why are you talking about how weak MR itemization is, and how that's skewing things in favor of mages?

Itemization doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's there to interact with champions and the map.

Lightningfst1 votes

And yet you see champions scale with armor per level, but not mr per level. I think they balance this to a point already.

I think the meta favors physical damage junglers with the new changes to smite and jungle items.

With regard to top/middle lane, I believe that in a fight, if a dedicated tank built MR against a mage while the mage built magic pen (before getting to void staff), the mage would win hands down every time with 50%+ hp left.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

And yet you see champions scale with armor per level, but not mr per level. I think they balance this to a point already.

Yes, they do. The game expects tanks to have more armor than MR.

I think the meta favors physical damage junglers with the new changes to smite and jungle items.

The jungle has favored physical damage junglers since forever. Magic damage junglers are quite rare because most magic damage champions are bursty and junglers need to do sustained damage. Also, lifesteal is quite nice.

With regard to top/middle lane, I believe that in a fight, if a dedicated tank built MR against a mage while the mage built magic pen (before getting to void staff), the mage would win hands down every time with 50%+ hp left.

The mage wins that fight even if they build pure AP and the tank builds pure anti-mage, because tanks don't deal much damage. Tanks lose 1v1 fights. It's what they do. Their job is to soak damage and buy time for their damage dealers to deal damage.

Lightningfst1 votes

The meta used to favor junglers with fast clear times and high mobility (Lee, Elise, Khaz, etc). The new items have changed that (in a good way, but still needs some tweaking).

I believe that if a dedicated tank built MR and a mage built glass cannon damage, that a 1v1 fight should at least be relatively close, which would allow for skill to be the primary determining factor. As of right now I do not believe that to be the case.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

The meta used to favor junglers with fast clear times and high mobility (Lee, Elise, Khaz, etc). The new items have changed that (in a good way, but still needs some tweaking).

Right. As it happens, high sustained damage plus high mobility is a trait of the bruiser class. Many more physical damage junglers than magic damage junglers have been top tier since season 3; Elise is an exception to the trend largely because she is designed as an AP bruiser.

I believe that if a dedicated tank built MR and a mage built glass cannon damage, that a 1v1 fight should at least be relatively close, which would allow for skill to be the primary determining factor. As of right now I do not believe that to be the case.

It's not the case, by design. You can make a game where tanks are strong 1v1, but it's a very different game than League. In League, tanks are teamfighting champions, and if you buffed their base damage output enough to be close in 1v1, what you just created is a bruiser with a tank sized utility budget.

Lightningfst1 votes

[deleted]

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Right now I see magic damage as absolutely terrifying at all stages of the game. Late game MR items aren't very efficient at absorbing magic damage against a mage with a Void Staff, magic pen and say Rabbadon. A mage can start building pen early and as fast as you can build MR items unless you just stack several NMM, which is not an enjoyable experience.

Tanks eventually stop caring about magic damage without having to buy much MR. Very few mages can burn through 4k health even with a relatively low MR. Many 6 item tank builds have only a Banshee's for MR, with the rest in HP/armor items.

Meanwhile, MR stacking isn't really supported in the itemization because there isn't much demand for it. Void Staff is very good, typically it's a bad plan to buy 3 MR items.

We don't want mages to feel useless, that is true. And there is nothing wrong with having power spike windows. But playing the first 10+ minutes of the game without being able to make meaningful item choices other than starting with all consumables and stacking NMM during the early/mid game against a mage opponent is not fun. And as a game, we should be looking for opportunities for players to make meaningful choices and feel rewarded for making good choices, not frustration.

I don't know which lane you're considering. I can't think of any off the top of my head where stacking mantles is a good early buy. Assuming you'd like to avoid dying to mages, your first item buy should usually be a health item, not an MR item. This also has the side effect of helping you not die to anyone else, either.

I also wouldn't recommend all consumable starts for anyone.

Lightningfst1 votes

So talking about 2 different points in the game here. Assuming you get to a 6 item build (which many games do not get to that point), sure a super hit point tank can survive the burst of a 6 item mage. But not a 6 item mage and lets say 1-2 other champions' abilities.

But that isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the laning phase of the game, which is typically the first 10-18 minutes of the game, depending on how well or poorly a lane is doing. And this instance is most likely to occur top lane, with a much smaller chance of happening mid.

And let's address the snowball. Yes we want players to be able to snowball, but as Phreak recently mentioned in another post, by how much? You still want the losing team to be able to feel like they can come back. If a lane is losing to a mage let's say top for sake of argument (Rumble, Ryze, etc) and the losing player wants to survive in lane, there are no meaningful options should their opponent stack mpen items. Why I bring this up is that I believe there used to be, but now are not. This is a recent change with the removal of negatron cloak, and the combination of cheap to buy mpen items and more difficult to stack MR items make the entire interaction cumbersome and unenjoyable.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

But that isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the laning phase of the game, which is typically the first 10-18 minutes of the game, depending on how well or poorly a lane is doing. And this instance is most likely to occur top lane, with a much smaller chance of happening mid.

Mages are strongest as a class at 6. It's no surprise that mage damage is scary in lane. That's largely what they're for.

If a lane is losing to a mage let's say top for sake of argument (Rumble, Ryze, etc) and the losing player wants to survive in lane, there are no meaningful options should their opponent stack mpen items.

This has been true forever in my mind. Top lane has always been decided by first blood, and bully mages like Rumble have always opened with Haunting Guise and Sorcerer's Shoes. The best reaction in most cases is to buy a Giant's Belt in response, although if you get behind you are probably farming under turret for the rest of the lane.

Riot has long wanted to fix this property of top lane but they haven't come up with a solution. The most recent attempt was buffing hp regen across the board, which resulted in an era of bruiser dominance with Renekton, Shyvana, and Mundo.

Why I bring this up is that I believe there used to be, but now are not. This is a recent change with the removal of negatron cloak, and the combination of cheap to buy mpen items and more difficult to stack MR items make the entire interaction cumbersome and unenjoyable.

I don't understand this. The way I see it, having some items build from mantle and some from negatron was really constraining for the top laner who wants MR itemization. You'd often base and have the wrong amount of money to buy MR in a build path your champion wanted. I feel like the new itemization tree is considerably more flexible and accommodates a wider variety of back times.

Also, your first item often wants to be Giant's Belt in these matchups, as it gives more effective HP than 2 Mantles or a Mantle and a Ruby Crystal for most champions. The exception is when your champion has high sustain and you're not afraid of getting bursted, then you get more benefit from buying a Mantle.

In any case, I would strongly recommend against stacking Mantles. Much better to get an immediate tier 2 MR item. Probably Spectre's Cowl is the most generically useful item for facing a Rumble or other magic damage brawler.

Lightningfst1 votes

Right now I see magic damage as absolutely terrifying at all stages of the game. Late game MR items aren't very efficient at absorbing magic damage against a mage with a Void Staff, magic pen and say Rabbadon. A mage can start building pen early and as fast as you can build MR items unless you just stack several NMM, which is not an enjoyable experience.

The only current way to counteract this is a full MR page which kills diversity in runes. It is a poor system design change that if exploited, could skew the meta.

We don't want mages to feel useless, that is true. And there is nothing wrong with having power spike windows. But playing the first 10+ minutes of the game without being able to make meaningful item choices other than starting with all consumables and stacking NMM during the early/mid game against a mage opponent is not fun. We should be looking for opportunities for players to make meaningful choices and feel rewarded for making good choices, not frustration.

Also with regard to mpen and arpen, I did note that there are other stats in consideration. My observation was not on the weight of the other stats, but rather what it takes cost-wise in-game to purchase an item with the desired stat. In this case, there are only a small number of items that have penetration stats, so the argument of cost of pen stats being the item subtracting the other stats doesn't really work for what I am highlighting. In terms of item balance with relation to cost, sure you can pick that apart. But taking a compound of low cost to buy into mpen and high cost to acquire MR, there is a definite problem here.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

The thing is though...

Magical-Dmg usually tends to have brust-patterns, so if you offer too high MR values anything that does not deal sustained-magical-dmg will automatically become utterly useless. Physical-Dmg on the other hand now doesn´t only offer Burst, but also lots of sustained-dmg via AutoAttacks (yea, even on AD-Assassins)...so as you have to survive a more constant assault here you absolutely need more defense. Also, AD-dmg scales better throughout the game as it features more multipliers (AD, Crit, AS, Pen <-> Ap, Pen and maybe CDR for Casters).

And what you really should analyze is how goddamn broken Pen is, leading to a non-tank-meta since S2 ended and the System Changed. There´s a real problem right there, not some nonsense about equality of itemization for totally different matters.

Lightningfst1 votes

I address Pen midway through my post, and I note the disparity between magic pen and armor pen.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

I agree that there's a disparity between Armor and MR, but it's not the one about which you are speaking. I was surprised to not see this in your post, but the problem between Armor and MR is that, while both are now able to build from their most basic items (Cloth Armor and Null-Magic Mantle), you can't start the game with NMM anymore (unless you spec in utility).

What you're saying? About how MR comes in lower numbers, and how Armor tends to have much greater defense efficiency? That's by design. Like SmokingPuffin said, there's a significant difference in how Physical and Magic damage scale. Magic damage tends to be in burst rotations, short windows of instant damage followed by long cooldowns of absolutely nothing. Physical damage is persistent, potentially infinite so long as you stay on the target.

Where MR is designed to take the edge off of a mage's burst (making it possible to survive multiple spell rotations and/or retaliate while they're on cooldown), Armor is designed to extend your lifespan based on your HP and your opponent's DPS (making it possible to ignore their damage output for a certain amount of time before you know you need to run away).

MR is not meant to entirely shut down a mage, only make it possible to deal with them. And, currently, that's exactly what MR itemization does. MR items are doing their job right.

Lightningfst1 votes

I did mention that you can't start with a level 1 magic resist item (NMM) unless you spec utility for extra gold (515g possible at level 1).

Cannot start with an MR item at level 1 unless you go deep utility mastery tree, which leaves no room for any other items or consumables.

MR comes in lower numbers, but Magic Pen comes in higher numbers and lower cost than Armor Pen.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Sorry that I overlooked it.

MPen comes in higher numbers, but not lower cost, and I will repeat myself; Physical damage naturally scales better in the late-game than Magic Damage.

Physical damage and Magic damage both have one mirrored scalar--penetration--and then they each have scalars that are similar, but have significant differences. Namely, Attack Damage/Attack Speed and Ability Power/Cooldown Reduction. Note: I know that some AD champions can use CDR, and some AP champions can use AS. These are just their primary scalars.

Attack Damage and Ability Power are the first set of parallels; they both directly increase the flat damage dealt by attacks and abilities respectively (again, yes, there are AD-scaled abilities and AP-scaled attacks; this is, however, the rule of thumb).

However, Attack Damage and Ability Power have two main differences. First and foremost, all champions have a base amount of AD, scaling from 43-67 at level 1 to 87-137 by level 18. Meanwhile, only a very specific few champions have innate AP. Viktor and Veigar are the only ones off the top of my head. Pretty much every other mage has to buy AP to have AP.

To make up for this fact, spells have base damage (because nobody would want to play mages if their spells started at 0 damage). However, the second difference between AD and AP exists because of base spell damage; spells rarely scale 100% or higher with AP. Basic attacks are always 100% of AD. The majority of spells have scaling around 60-80%. Thanks to both of these factors, AP is about 65.5% more gold-efficient than AD.

The second parallel stats are Attack Speed and Cooldown Reduction. They both indirectly increase damage output by reducing the delay between attacks/abilities. However, Attacks have a base "cooldown" ranging from 0.579 to 0.694 attacks per second (roughly 1.44-1.73 seconds per attack) at level 1. Attack Speed can scale all the way up to 2.5 attacks per second (0.4 seconds per attack). Spells, on the other hand, have cooldowns ranging from 0.1 seconds (Yasuo's E) to 200 seconds (Karthus' R). A normal cooldown for a mage's basic harass spell may be between 1 and 10 seconds base CD, depending on their level (and which specific mage). Some spells might go 15, 20, even 30 seconds base cooldown for non-ultimates.

Attack Speed increases DPS by number of attacks per second (although it's by fractional amounts, because increasing by a full attack per second would require +144-173% bonus AS), while Cooldown Reduction reduces the gap between burst rotations, effectively increasing a mage's DPS, but more being picked up for the purpose of having a smaller vulnerability window between bursts. But Cooldown Reduction caps at +40%, which is a much smaller DPS jump than that which AS (and AD) is capable of doing.

On top of these differences, AP does not have an equivalent to AD's Criticals. They have their equivalent to Infinity Edge--Rabadon's Deathcap--but they have nothing that can match the damage increase from Crit Chance.

AP has a natural window of strength in the laning phase, and maybe all the way up to before everyone hits level 18, depending on the mage (and circumstances). AD always has to grow in strength, but will eventually out-damage AP because of naturally stronger innate power output and less wasteful scaling.

Because of this, Armor needs to be innately stronger in order to give tanks and bruisers their early-game effectiveness against AD champions. MR does not need to entirely shut down a mage's damage, because the majority of mages do not use persisting damage output. They burst, then walk away. If you're able to walk away after a mage burns their full rotation, the MR did its job.

Lightningfst1 votes

MPen comes in higher numbers, but not lower cost, and I will repeat myself; Physical damage naturally scales better in the late-game than Magic Damage.

MPen comes in higher numbers AND lower cost, if you look at actualized cost rather than the breakdown of items into the base cost of their stat points. I would agree that the valuation of mpen as a stat may be higher cost per point, but when you tally up the total cost to get the items with the penetration stats, the cost to obtain raw Mpen as a stat is much lower due to the items not having enough other stats to drive their costs higher respectively, or ArPen items having their other stats too high. It is a bit apples/oranges in that respect, but ultimately this is what I am pointing out. Stacking 30 Mpen is WAY cheaper than stacking 30 ArPen, and Armor itemization allows you to get a higher Armor count than Magic Resist which is the other main part of my point.

For Randuin's (arguably the best overall armor item) you need to spend 2850g and it gives you 70 Armor and 500 HP.

To get 30 Armor Pen at the basic level you need to spend 4037g.

For Banshee's Veil (the closest comparable MR item) you need to spend 2750g and you get 55 MR and 450 HP.

To get 30 Magic Pen you only need to spend 2585g.

Do you see the disparity? Yes there are differences in other stats which gives a total valuation of the stat.

On these items the valuation of MPen is 775g for 15 on Sorc Boots and 675.25g for 15 on Haunting Guise. That comes to 51.667g per point on Sorc Boots and 45.0167g per point on Haunting Guise.

Armor Pen valuation is a little more challenging as they come on CDR items, which does not have a baseline item for a valuation comparison. The question in this case would be does Riot value CDR differently on AP items vs AD items? The only neutral valuation for CDR as a baseline are Lucidity boots, so we can try to use that. 675g per 15% or 45g per 1% of CDR. Alternatively, the AP version would be Fiendish Codex, which evaluates to a CDR cost of 167.5g for 10% CDR, or 16.75g per 1% (1/3rd the cost difference).

Looking at CDR valuation on AD items we can look at Essence Reaver. Lifesteal valuates clearly at 440g per 8%, or 55g per 1% (looking at Vamp Scepter) for a total of 550g for life steal stats. Damage evaluates to 36g per point at base level and 31g per point at higher tier level (long sword to BF Sword). 10 damage is from base long sword cost so lets evaluate the remaining 70 damage at BF Sword cost (2170) for a total of 2530g for damage. That leaves 120g for 10% CDR (never mind the passive ability) or 12g per point of CDR.

Now evaluating Brutalizer, cost of damage on the item translates to 900g (arguable 875g if you compare pickaxe) for +25 damage. For sake of argument lets use 875g. That leaves 462g to cover 10% CDR and 10 ArP. If we use the AP CDR costs. 462g - 167.5g for 10% CDR gives us 294g for 10 ArP, or 29.4g per ArP. If we use 12g per point of CDR on an AD item as baseline, our ArP valuation comes out to 34.2g per ArP on Brutalizer. I think a case can be made to say CDR valuation on AD items is a little more than 2/3rds the cost of being on AP items (12g per point vs 16.75g per point).

TL;DR Valuation of stats like CDR fluctuate from item to item. This gives a range of valuation of ArP as a stat to likely be between 29.4g - 34.2g per point. The valuation of ArP per stat point is lower than MPen, however the cost to acquire items with MPen is significantly lower than the cost to acquire ArPen and MPen power spike is much more significant than ArP with respect to defensive items due to cost of MR items.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes
  1. The one and only reason why the cost for the two flat MPen items is, overall, less expensive is because there is only one base item for ArPen. For a long time, I've had a problem with the existence of Sorcerer's Shoes. That said, you're getting a much more significant stat boost from the AD ArPen items than the AP MPen items.

  2. You still did not address the much more important--pretty much focal--point of that entire post. AP does not scale nearly as well as AD scales. Because AP's stats do not scale as well into the late-game, they're given their stats at cheaper cost and with more immediate effectiveness. MPen is one of many such differences; another would be that you're able to get about 60-80% more AP for the same gold as AD, and you can get what's effectively +80% AS on spells in two items that also grant a significant amount of other stats (including defensive stats and utility).

Lightningfst1 votes

You built Archangel's Staff/Seraph's Embrace on Mundo, your argument is invalid. =P

Seriously though, what I argue isn't just the valuation but accessibility of the items at different stages in the game that is the problem. Per point armor and MR valuate the same at early levels, yet the accessibility of items is vastly different because of price points and the item build tree.

Stat-wise, Brutalizer has more damage stats as an ArPen item than Haunting Guise as an Mpen item (due to having HP on Haunting Guise rather than AP).

My argument really revolves around the ease of accessibility of MPen contrasted to the difficulty of acquiring MR.

As for your points on scaling, I wasn't really interested in addressing scaling of AD vs AP into full item builds because that isn't what my point was about. My entire post was covering the laning phase of the game where you have 1-2 core items and showing some holes in the itemization tree.

I'll comment a little though since you put so much effort into it. The reason why mages can afford to start with 0 AP is that their effectiveness revolves around their abilities. As their abilities scale with level, so does their base ability damage such that at level 1, assuming range of base attack is not a factor, AD should typically beat out AP (usually by nature AD also have a few damage abilities with scaling).

One of the major difference is that AD champions typically have less raw damage activated abilities that scale of AD than their AP counterparts. Most AD champions have an ability that scales solely off of AP, whereas AP champions (mages) never have an ability that only scales off AD. So by design of their kits alone, mages factor more heavily on their abilities and scale more for "burst" because they can use their scaling all at once (really as fast as their fingers and animations allow).

As champions increase in level, the base damage of their abilities scale as well and their base ability cooldowns usually decrease. In this respect abilities have a base "+% AS" increase that can be augmented further by CDR. As an aside, I find that with roughly 185% increased IAS, you can hit 2.5 attacks per second.

The cost to acquire raw AP is much less than the cost to acquire raw AD. 36g per point baseline for AD scaling to 31g per point at BF Sword 21.75g per point baseline for AP scaling to 20g per point at Needlessly Large Rod.

Looking at Top Tier items, this ratio is maintained from 80 AD vs 120 AP, or roughly 50% increased bang for buck on AP.

Yes you can get into Rabbadon's vs IE and crit scaling, but really what I am trying to focus on is defensive itemization out of the item tree and penetration stats and how the early/mid game is affected.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

You built Archangel's Staff/Seraph's Embrace on Mundo, your argument is invalid. =P

Ever heard of a thing called Ultimate Bravery? I think that will explain it nicely.

Anyway; in regards to your point about MPen availability versus MR availability, I agree on that one. Again, mostly because of the price increase on NMM, it takes a bit more per slot to get an MR item started. They're not necessarily more expensive than Armor choices (quite the opposite in several cases), but there's a bit more difficulty than necessary. I really don't understand why they didn't do the same thing with NMM and Negatron as they did with Cloth Armor and Chain Vest.

I'd say we finally got to the real point of the thread. It's not so much about an actual disparity between Armor/MR and ArPen/MPen; you seem to be more worried that mages have a much stronger advantage because of the early/mid game availability of MPen. And I agree in my own way. Sorcerer's Shoes is a problem--flat pen, really, is a problem, but that's another discussion--that has existed simply because they exist. As far as I can tell, Riot has them because they didn't want boots that had flat AP on them instead.

Lightningfst1 votes

Lol I figured something like that was going on.

I'll note this new patch reintroduced Negatron Cloak as an upgrade from NMM.

HUZZAH!

Toothless Lion1 votes

I love how Riot keeps dumpstering MR itemization over and over and over again.

N3mO061 votes

Man I think the same things! Armor, or better, m res are usefull only if builded on champs like rammus or leona. On other champs is useless: 300 of armor??? Yasuo does more the 1 k only with q. You build 3 item for m res??? (+150 m res). Ok katarina does more then 2k with a combo. The real problem is that after Force of nature, miss a true answer for magic damage, an item which allow you to build just tons of m res like frozen heart for the armor. Moreover items like void staff and last whisper are, for me, really unbalanced beacuse they allow the player to counter more items by buying a single object, because in fact, more enamies buy defensive stats and a bigger part of this stas will be ignored by these Items

Drunk Rummate1 votes

when you consider that almost every AP champion is burst and cooldown oriented in nature you have to realize that total hp is also a big factor in reducing AP damage.

if a syndra blows her ult on you then she can essentially "auto" attack you with her Q every 3 seconds thereafter as her main form of damage. comparatively an ADC would be attacking for the same damage at twice that rate.

in that sense flat health is just as much a resistance to magic damage as MR is, since surviving the initial burst with enough hp to fight back is extremely important and will typically win you a duel.

Lightningfst1 votes

Raw HP should not always be better than resistances though. If it is, then the resistances aren't doing their job and should be tweaked.

Note: New patch brought back the Negatron Cloak as an upgrade to NMM. Problem solved!

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