Veigar buffs at 5.6 will not solve his problems

jjookkeerr·Mar 24, 2015·16 votes·2,961 views

riot is avoiding the real problem that veigar has no only 2 skills, Q and R. Can you please make w hitable without the need of a hard cc and plz unnerf his ult ap ratio.

24 Comments

LoLKiruMar 24, 20155 votes

This was acknowledged a few days ago by meddler. I fully expect to see more changes for him in 5.7.

"We want him to still remain a burst mage, but we clearly haven't given him enough reliability for that to happen."

jjookkeerrMar 24, 20153 votes

it is so easy, make his Q point and click and revert the fucking nerf of his ult

LoLKiruMar 24, 201510 votes

{quoted}

it is so easy, make his Q point and click and revert the fucking nerf of his ult

As far as being a mage overall, his new Q is BETTER than the old one (as long as you can land it; it gives more range, more AP, and has a lower cost in exchange for a loss of reliability), so theres little point in making it point and click. A revert to his ult would certainly aid him a little though; but what I'd rather see happen to it, is just flat out removing the 80% enemy AP ratio; and in exchange buffing the overall AP ratio of the skill to 1.5 (for comparison, its 1.0 now, 1.2 pre-nerf).

Besides that, what he needs is reliability on his W; his old stun was without a doubt broken (it was basically a nearly instant J4 ultimate, except it stunned you for touching the walls), but the fact remains that it was the only thing holding his kit together. So with the ability now much different than it was before, he needs a way to land W without relying so much on his E (ideally you would want to just make W easier to land)

Very Hard EngageMar 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

As far as being a mage overall, his new Q is BETTER than the old one (as long as you can land it; it gives more range, more AP, and has a lower cost in exchange for a loss of reliability), so theres little point in making it point and click. A revert to his ult would certainly aid him a little though; but what I'd rather see happen to it, is just flat out removing the 80% enemy AP ratio; and in exchange buffing the overall AP ratio of the skill to 1.5 (for comparison, its 1.0 now, 1.2 pre-nerf).

Besides that, what he needs is reliability on his W; his old stun was without a doubt broken (it was basically a nearly instant J4 ultimate, except it stunned you for touching the walls), but the fact remains that it was the only thing holding his kit together. So with the ability now much different than it was before, he needs a way to land W without relying so much on his E (ideally you would want to just make W easier to land)

its better for team fights, its worse for laning phase, better veigar players wouldn't miss early cs with Q farm if they wanted it. the only trade off is that now i CANT harass my opponent because hes standing behind minions. this means they are free to spam on me because i cant trade back, Q only hits the first 2 targets, so their minion shield prevents me from doing anything outside of AA. this forces me to play passive and back and only Q farm, while they still get all their farm AND harass on me, now i have to break even with them in Q farm or else ill be behind on team fights.

DrCyanideMar 24, 20152 votes

I'm hoping the range increase makes those rare instances where you can line up one low health minion and the enemy champion easier to capitalize on, because you're 100% right. New Q forces Veigar to play far more passively in laning than old Q.

Here's to hoping for 5.7 W changes!

LoLKiruMar 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

its better for team fights, its worse for laning phase, better veigar players wouldn't miss early cs with Q farm if they wanted it. the only trade off is that now i CANT harass my opponent because hes standing behind minions. this means they are free to spam on me because i cant trade back, Q only hits the first 2 targets, so their minion shield prevents me from doing anything outside of AA. this forces me to play passive and back and only Q farm, while they still get all their farm AND harass on me, now i have to break even with them in Q farm or else ill be behind on team fights.

Certainly fair enough, it is important to note that this is likely why it has so much more range now, so he can safely farm if need be (bear in mind theres other mids who have the same problem harass wise, where their main tool is blocked by minions; notably Lux, Lissandra, Morg)

I feel a buff to his W will go a long way in helping him out, since he'll have a reliable way to poke people down again in preparation to burst them.

SwapShadowsMar 24, 20151 votes

It's not better at all, a burst mage with no mobility needs to make sure he can land all of his spells. If a enemy is in the way of his Q then he will not land it and god forbid someone actually gets hit by his W

MrButtermancerMar 25, 20155 votes

...as long as you can land it. That's the key, right there. This is now the league of mobility. Champions he could "sort of" break even with like Diana, Akali, Ahri, Yasuo, and sometimes Zed, he now has no chance against. By the time the Q leaves the barrel they are already somewhere else. Zed, Ahri, and Yasuo specifically are so mobile they can do this responsively, which gives you no actual ability to lead them, predict them, or provide any kind of strategic answer to what they are doing. You simply can't hit them. Where before this might have been mitigated to some degree by an instant stun, that no longer exists.

As for the champions you can potentially hit, that's still potentially. Veigar is not mobile at all. Closing to deal damage has always been a huge risk, but now there's no guarantee of any damage at all. Even before, you had to manage the balance between harass/counterharass and farm because Q's used to harass your opponent are Q's not last hitting minions and generating AP. Now... it's just unilaterally safer to use Q exclusively to farm.

Q must be targetable in Veigar's current kit for him to be viable. He can't be fixed by sheer numbers within reason; the numbers would have to be unreasonable.

DJ Di0Mar 25, 20153 votes

I agree that he still needs a tiny push, but I like the changes he got today.

What I think should be done next is have the delay of his W scale with rank. so something like 1.30/1.15/1.00/.85/.7(.2 more than Xerath's W). It'll slightly harder to hit early on, but late game it'll actually be more useful than something to clear/pseudo-zone with.

OvionMar 25, 20152 votes

I still don't understand how they haven't changed his W... it doesn't matter how many times they buff the Q range... he'll feel incomplete...

1st HanarSpectreMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I still don't understand how they haven't changed his W... it doesn't matter how many times they buff the Q range... he'll feel incomplete...

Because his w is a spell that does 320 damage + 100% ap on a baseline 8 second cooldown. That's an easy 1k aoe damage late game, they can't make it unavoidable, that would just be ridiculously strong. They are trying to find a way to be mroe reliable than now, but with still an out to avoid running into the same problem as before, which is get hit by a veigar spell, too bad you ded,

OvionMar 25, 20151 votes

That's why the same delay as Swain's W (0.875) may work: it's hard to hit if you don't slow the enemies, but you can still hit it if the enemy doesn't react fast enough and you place it really well!

And right now he is a worse Syndra item 3070

1st HanarSpectreMar 25, 20152 votes

You could also leave the delay the same, but give it the Soraka starfall treatment, Add an outer circle area to the spell who deals lesser damage while the center which remains the same size as currently does the full 320+ 1.0 AP .

OvionMar 25, 20152 votes

That's a great idea! He could combo it with his E so he always hit it, but the enemy can dodge the inner cicle so they don't take the full 320 + 1.0 AP!

I hope they test this idea, it may work out :D

Hard PenetratorMar 25, 20152 votes

To be fair I rarely see any champion to get this much attention from both parties. I don't have any idea why their buffs are so tiny month by month while nerfs practically killed champion in one smooth swing but I am glad they actually care and iron him out.

Rinky DinkyMar 25, 20151 votes

They already said there will be more changes coming to pbe.

Stop acting like these buffs do not help, they do, alot.

They want to solidify his q farming patterns (Which is VERY effective right now due to these buffs.), and buff his burst from there.

Expect changes to w.

4th3t0sMar 25, 20151 votes

W is not a harass tool, stop insisting it should be.

jjookkeerrMar 25, 20151 votes

The TraveledMar 28, 20151 votes

How about a slow within Event Horizon? That would make both his Q and W easier to land. And increase the base dmg of his ult (at least the early ranks).

ArdzivApr 4, 20151 votes

The problem with veigar atm is his kit is unreliable, and he is too squishy to not be able to rely on comboing down his opponents. His laning phase is already really hard and he gets out harassed by almost all mids, and with an unreliable kit he can't affect the game enough after level 6.

As a veigar main, I think the best place to make a change right now by keeping him the way he is (mostly), is to change is W, and I don't mean just make it easier to hit, create a new ability entirely, that ability was never that interesting in the first place, it was just a free 1.0ratio nuke anytime you land your stun.

Another problem with veigar is banshees it is nearly impossible to fight someone who has banshees up with old veigar, with new one its even worse as you can miss your q. Also with champions like Zed and Fizz who can dodge your ult, he is just not a good mid pick. His ult should be unstoppable once in the air imo, now that it is not as strong as before.