not feeling the new bruiser rune tbh.

Critmaster Garen·Feb 24, 2018·16 votes·1,649 views

takes way too long to activate in most cases, and then you have to remain even longer in combat to make it useful.

its like grasp but shittier, because at least grasp really does give you a proc after 4 seconds after which you can just pull back from the fight/trade.

in reality most fights are just too short for conqueror to even activate. and in skirmishes you cant hold onto it long enough.

you know how bruisers have issues to make press the attack useful, because they have to stick to their targets for 3 auto attacks and then 6 seconds longer to benefit from the damage amp? its like that but worse. its a good attempt but not really better than PTA.

i suggest to make the rune proc every 2 seconds instead and ramp up to full effect over like 3 stacks.

54 Comments

RainXBladeFeb 24, 20182 votes

~~Blame Ghostcrawler. He ruined melees in the game.~~

At this point, can we just bring back Fervor of Battle?

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

~~Blame Ghostcrawler. He ruined melees in the game.~~

At this point, can we just bring back Fervor of Battle?

honestly id like something that could be used on garen aswell. fervor wouldnt do that either. the only reason fervor even worked as a bruiser keystone was because of the melee/range split.

there are a bunch of similar champions who just have awkward choices in keystones. when it comes to ad caster type fighters, there is really nothing that synergizes well with your kit. not even like press the attack synegizes with auto attacking bruisers right now.

like what is Illaoi going to pick for a keystone? except kelpto which she can use because she can proc it on the spirit, everything else is kindof shit. electrocute, phase rush and similar 3 hit keystones dont work well on her or only really awkwardly because multi hit spells (or multiple tentacle hits) dont count anymore.

the same goes for garen really. we dont just need a bruiser keystone, but also a replacement for dft to support sustained damage patterns from spells.

i mean come on do we have to really rely on half a support keystone with summon aery for sustained spell damage? this is kindof ridiculous.

for grasp they might even just be able to reduce the proc timer from 4 seconds to 3 seconds and just reduce its effect by 25% so its not as awkward to proc for fighters anymore. that could be a good start.

RainXBladeFeb 24, 20181 votes

Then here's a solution: Allow Fervor to proc on anything that deals physical damage. By that I mean anything that deal physical damage but they don't have to be basic attacks like Illaoi's tentacles.

Divine ThighsFeb 24, 20181 votes

If phase rush wasn't so trash garen and other juggernauts could run it.

LankPantsFeb 24, 20182 votes

I see more potential for this rune on Sejuani than on any bruiser. I don't see any bruiser realistically being able to last the 6-7 seconds in a fight they need for this to have an impact, at least as a tank there's a chance you'll live to use it.

Realistically though this is a ranged burst AD caster rune. If you're playing Lucian or Jayce you can kite around a fight for 4 seconds then when the rune kicks in you can all in and abuse the extra AD and true damage. The fact it's weaker on ranged won't even matter, because procing it as a ranged champ is so much easier.

HaIlMonitorFeb 24, 20181 votes

This rune is scary as fuck on tanks.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 24, 20181 votes

Don't tank use stoneplate though?

It kinda ruins the idea of damage.

The extra stats from aftershock are pretty sweet too.

HaIlMonitorFeb 24, 20181 votes

It means they are even stronger early. I played a game where a Maokai was running us down like sick dogs. It was miserable.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 24, 20181 votes

Stronger early yes, but also weaker in mid/lategame in teamfights.

And the games when a tank runs people down usually means that the tank is fed or enemy team doesn't have a tank or that they don't have any good ability to deal with tanks.

I know because i often play tank or anti tank champs just because i hate the feel or being unable to do anything about them or not having one x)

HaIlMonitorFeb 24, 20181 votes

He was fed yes, but honestly a fed assassin you CC them once and BAM they die. A fed tank can take a whole teams combo damage and then laugh it away.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 24, 20181 votes

Fed assassin will usually look to end the game before anyone else reaches 2-3 items, or gain a massive advantage overall before then.

Fed tank will just initiate fights whenever possible and soak damage, which doesn't do much unless some conditions are met.

Enemy team must lack good anti tank capability at the time.
Enemy team must not have a strong tank of their own
Enemy team must not be able to bypass the tank and kill the backline.

Fed assassin will just roam everywhere from 1 item on and wreck havoc, meanwhile a Sejuani for instance needs 3 entire items to really get going.

And even a fed tank should not be able to laugh a team away if they have access to good tools, just in my last game i played against a massive nautlus who kept wrecking the rest of my team because they could not kill him for the longest time.

But whenever i was around on Vel koz that nautilus always played very, very carefully, because a single rotation from me and he´d lose 50-70% health as true damage, sometimes he even went down first before fights started properly.

That, is what we call good anti tank tools, and even without ulti i still had the passive and liandry screwing with him pretty hard......but to be fair, he didn't have stoneplate.

I can tell ya, there is a big difference between that and playing say Ahri, zoe or lux who in a similar position would not do shit against that nautilus, stoneplate or not.

LankPantsFeb 24, 20182 votes

You're actually wrong on this one, Stoneplate doesn't reduce true damage. It's technically a bigger %wise damage increase if you have Stoneplate popped than if you don't, the split with Stoneplate is 20/40/40, IE 50% of your raw damage becomes true damage just due to the way it interacts.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 24, 20181 votes

ah right, shoulda realized seeing how Cho plays x)

Death by GlamourFeb 24, 20181 votes

I think its designed to for laning but I have no idea who it is meant to help other than panth fiora and darius (maybe a top yasuo aswell)

but replacing tanks with these lane bullies wont really help bruisers

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-24T00:23:41.436+0000)

I think its designed to for laning but I have no idea who it is meant to help other than panth fiora and darius (maybe a top yasuo aswell)

but replacing tanks with these lane bullies wont really help bruisers

i noticed that its just as useless in lane trades as later on in the game.

because most lane trades dont take 4 seconds. they definitely dont take even longer to be able to make any use of the effect.

like most lane trades will be champions blowing their cooldowns or trading a couple of auto attacks and then retreating to let their abilities come off cd again. conqueror almost never activates when it would be useful.

Death by GlamourFeb 24, 20181 votes

thing is those 3 can lkeep the buff up near constantly

wont work on people like garen as you combo to deal damage, and it will be nearly over by the time the rune kicks in

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-24T00:34:23.633+0000)

wont work on people like garen

nothing really does tbh. he doesnt have a single keystone that synergizes as well with his kit as press the attack on auto attacking champions, or comet and aftershock on champions with hard cc.

every single keystone is awkward to use on him. it feels like whatever you pick you play some sort of weird mini game that other champions dont have to play (because they just naturally proc the runes by doing what theyre doing anyway) and its kindof pissing me off. that INCLUDES grasp, which makes you overstay for a full second after an ability chain just to get the proc off. or you have to awkwardly auto attack minions and push the lane to ready it upfront for a trade.

best case scenario is youre using a keystone like electrocute or phase rush and you either have to work with cramming an auto attack into your q spin combo, despite your q being one of the shittiest auto attack resets in the game, or you have to build item 3751 to help you get the proc off.

LyingOnLineFeb 24, 20181 votes

Klepto Garen.

Anyways, it seems pretty clear to me that as is this rune is pretty much “never all-in Darius as a melee champ ever”

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Klepto Garen.

Anyways, it seems pretty clear to me that as is this rune is pretty much “never all-in Darius as a melee champ ever”

klepto sucks on him. hes not like nasus who has these massive item powerspikes, or like gp who can just reliably proc it from a distance.

LyingOnLineFeb 24, 20181 votes

‘Twas a joke.

The Bad TouchFeb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-24T00:39:50.046+0000)

nothing really does tbh. he doesnt have a single keystone that synergizes as well with his kit as press the attack on auto attacking champions, or comet and aftershock on champions with hard cc.

every single keystone is awkward to use on him. it feels like whatever you pick you play some sort of weird mini game that other champions dont have to play (because they just naturally proc the runes by doing what theyre doing anyway) and its kindof pissing me off. that INCLUDES grasp, which makes you overstay for a full second after an ability chain just to get the proc off. or you have to awkwardly auto attack minions and push the lane to ready it upfront for a trade.

best case scenario is youre using a keystone like electrocute or phase rush and you either have to work with cramming an auto attack into your q spin combo, despite your q being one of the shittiest auto attack resets in the game, or you have to build to help you get the proc off.

Glacial Augment on a champ with no CC much?

It's good for both engaging.. and escapes... you know the 2 things Garen does?

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-24T04:43:09.314+0000)

Glacial Augment on a champ with no CC much?

It's good for both engaging.. and escapes... you know the 2 things Garen does?

if i wanted glacial augments effect on garen, id buy frozen mallet. because it does exactly the same thing and has a great stat combination anyway, but unlike glacial augment, that thing doesnt have a 7 seond cooldown.

i mean think it through. if youre applying glacial augment with garen, youre applying it with his q. so the slow time overlaps with his silence anyway. it doesnt make much of a difference and doesnt noticably help you stick to your target.

if they really wanted to make glacial augment interesting, then they should do what they were trying to do with the new keystone and add an effect where melee champions can extend the slow duration for a couple seconds (even if its just 3 or 4 seconds), by dealing damage to the slowed champion, before it goes on cooldown.

you get the item active effect, but its still like like running half a keystone because the on hit slow effect rarely does anything. like i said, he doesnt have a single keystone that isnt awkward on him in some way.

The Bad TouchMar 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-24T05:20:32.472+0000)

if i wanted glacial augments effect on garen, id buy frozen mallet. because it does exactly the same thing and has a great stat combination anyway, but unlike glacial augment, that thing doesnt have a 7 seond cooldown.

i mean think it through. if youre applying glacial augment with garen, youre applying it with his q. so the slow time overlaps with his silence anyway. it doesnt make much of a difference and doesnt noticably help you stick to your target.

if they really wanted to make glacial augment interesting, then they should do what they were trying to do with the new keystone and add an effect where melee champions can extend the slow duration for a couple seconds (even if its just 3 or 4 seconds), by dealing damage to the slowed champion, before it goes on cooldown.

you get the item active effect, but its still like like running half a keystone because the on hit slow effect rarely does anything. like i said, he doesnt have a single keystone that isnt awkward on him in some way.

You should "never" Q auto in lane..... (vs a melee matchup)

Auto Q bro.... Glacial aug lets you get away with a lot of shit in lane. Auto->W->E->Auto Q trades for example. With very little some champs can do about it and the ability to end the trade when you chose with Q silence and speed boost.

Critmaster GarenMar 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-07T05:43:45.717+0000)

You should "never" Q auto in lane..... (vs a melee matchup)

Auto Q bro.... Glacial aug lets you get away with a lot of shit in lane. Auto->W->E->Auto Q trades for example. With very little some champs can do about it and the ability to end the trade when you chose with Q silence and speed boost.

its the same problem.

in lane, you can usually get a q or auto q on your target off anyway when youre already in melee range. later on, you could aswell get frozen mallet if you want to have exactly the same effect.

there is barely a difference between running glacial augment and not running it, since the slow overlaps with the silence duration of his q.

the main reason to run glacial augment would be if you went for the item 3800 off-tank/initiator build when you want to support your tank or another champion on your team in engaging fights.

but thats a very niche build. id even go as far as argue that if you want to play garen as a a tanky initiator with glory, you might aswell play an actual tank whos good and more reliable at engaging fights.

i know risti is a garen main on NA who tends to try and make garen into an initiatior this way. but its still less efficient than playing an actual tank.

the only situations id see this build useful is if you have a champion like Kennen or Fiddlesticks or Rumble as your main teamfight initiator on your team, and you want to support them by swooping in with glory, and aoe slow enemies with glacial augment lasers and glory to keep them inside the aoe effects of their ults.

but this only makes sense if your main teamfight initiation is only semi reliable, and even in that case its probably better to play a tank and directly engage firghts yourself than playing glacial augment garen.

The Bad TouchMar 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-07T08:02:49.161+0000)

its the same problem.

in lane, you can usually get a q or auto q on your target off anyway when youre already in melee range. later on, you could aswell get frozen mallet if you want to have exactly the same effect.

there is barely a difference between running glacial augment and not running it, since the slow overlaps with the silence duration of his q.

the main reason to run glacial augment would be if you went for the off-tank/initiator build when you want to support your tank or another champion on your team in engaging fights.

but thats a very niche build. id even go as far as argue that if you want to play garen as a a tanky initiator with glory, you might aswell play an actual tank whos good and more reliable at engaging fights.

i know risti is a garen main on NA who tends to try and make garen into an initiatior this way. but its still less efficient than playing an actual tank.

the only situations id see this build useful is if you have a champion like or or as your main teamfight initiator on your team, and you want to support them by swooping in with glory, and aoe slow enemies with glacial augment lasers and glory to keep them inside the aoe effects of their ults.

but this only makes sense if your main teamfight initiation is only semi reliable, and even in that case its probably better to play a tank and directly engage firghts yourself than playing glacial augment garen.

Good luck on that level 3 Frozen Mallet....

Again it's not Auto Q.... Glacial Aug lets you Auto W E auto Q.

Glacial Aug allows you to both punish and escape with ease. You aren't taking it for the late game you take it for lane.

flibitydooFeb 24, 20181 votes

garen can keep it up

one of garen's big items is sunfire cape and even then he can simply sit on bami's cinder.

if it's trigger works exactly like grasp, then just like poppy it works. Simply being within a 300 unit (or so) distance from a minion while you have the cinder effect will cause grasp/this new rune to build up, which let's face it, if you are a good boy and actually last hitting minions then you'll be ready to Q (to trigger)->E as garen the moment they step up to you.

PS.this comes from a person that plays poppy (and sion) and uses grasp on both because of that interaction with cinder.

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

garen can keep it up

one of garen's big items is sunfire cape and even then he can simply sit on bami's cinder.

you dont want sunfire every game. most of the time i prefer dead mans or other armor items first.

its also a problem that you have to push the lane on minions to be able to make use of your keystone. this is something you defenitely not want a lot of the time.

you want to be able to control the lane. when to push it and when to freeze it.

RainbowIceeFeb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-24T00:23:41.436+0000)

I think its designed to for laning but I have no idea who it is meant to help other than panth fiora and darius (maybe a top yasuo aswell)

but replacing tanks with these lane bullies wont really help bruisers

Would help some skirmishers/fighters.

rework trundleFeb 24, 20181 votes

I think it was designed to help bruisers beat tanks past 3 items, but it still doesn't help them beat tanks in lane. Either give us back a powercreeped version of Fervor to keep up with the new and better keystones or make PtA give 2% increased damage on-hit (let's say 1% for ranged), max 10%.

Or better even, make PtA proc after 2 stacks for melees so you can proc it with aa + aa reset (most bruisers have this mechanic).

Death by GlamourFeb 24, 20181 votes

they aren't going to be fighting tanks at 3 items though

rework trundleFeb 24, 20181 votes

I could see the situation in a splitpush scenario, most bruisers have some form of waveclear or tower shredding, the only problem is when a 300 armor malphite stands in front of the tower and you can't do shit to him

Death by GlamourFeb 24, 20181 votes

who split pushes now? :D

rework trundleFeb 24, 20181 votes

reeeeeeeeeeeeee

it's funny you say that because i always played Trundle splitpush 24/7, the month before i stopped playing him i adopted the playstyle "shove and roam" because splitting was pointless

Death by GlamourFeb 24, 20181 votes

trundle doesn't struggle to fight tanks tho the interaction with his ult would be interesting

yi doesn't either, and it would be garbage on a jungler

nasus wont build it

maybe trynd?

rework trundleFeb 24, 20181 votes

Any champion that's good at all ins, so yeah Trynd will definitely abuse this keystone. Darius too, his passive refreshes it constantly

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 24, 20181 votes

if everyone could instantly proc press the attack like shyv it would be beyond broken

Tomoe GozenFeb 24, 20181 votes

I've had one game with Vi with this rune and i honestly felt like i could be using it better if people actually fought me longer in fights. This happened in that game so i had no issues but in reality, i think that Dark Harvest honestly fulfills the role of a Keystone much better for Vi in the jungle than Conqueror.

This Keystone does serve sticky bruisers much better due to the fact that they can attach themselves to the enemy and fight them while champions who have no such options are likely to underutilize it.

SohleksFeb 24, 20181 votes

I simply don't like hardcoded timers for these runes to kick on. Maybe if in game effects can sell it idk. I kinda don't like grasp for same reason. But maybe this will be better because it may be more than a little blimp.

NemeBroFeb 24, 20181 votes

Is the damage mitigation pre or post mitigation?

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Is the damage mitigation pre or post mitigation?

what mitigation? not sure what youre talking about.

RyrynounetFeb 24, 20181 votes

I think is talkin' about bone plate

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Ryvals,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-02-24T16:56:48.464+0000)

I think is talkin' about bone plate

i think boneplating was wasted potential tbh.

id have preferred if it had a really short cooldown out of combat (9 - 3 seconds depending on level) to recharge and it would have consumed the shields on enemy crits against you and turned critical strikes into regular hits instead.

NemeBroFeb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-02-24T13:56:28.968+0000)

what mitigation? not sure what youre talking about.

Sorry, meant conversion. Is the conversion to true damage post or pre mitigation?

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, meant conversion. Is the conversion to true damage post or pre mitigation?

damage conversion post mitigation makes absolutely 0 sense.

it wouldnt be true damage if it was affected by mitigation.

NemeBroFeb 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=0008000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-24T19:17:14.644+0000)

damage conversion post mitigation makes absolutely 0 sense.

it wouldnt be true damage if it was affected by mitigation.

Okay, so what you're saying that if Tryndamere has four hundred AD and 100% crit chance, with every auto doing 1,000 crit damage pre-mitigation, 20% of that damage is converted into 200 true damage?

Critmaster GarenFeb 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Okay, so what you're saying that if Tryndamere has four hundred AD and 100% crit chance, with every auto doing 1,000 crit damage pre-mitigation, 20% of that damage is converted into 200 true damage?

yes. the other 800 damage would be mitigated by armor or other means of damage reduction (randuins, tabi etc.).

NemeBroFeb 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7P3oz2rc,comment-id=000800000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-25T05:05:41.218+0000)

yes. the other 800 damage would be mitigated by armor or other means of damage reduction (randuins, tabi etc.).

So you're telling me that Tryndamere, who late game does over 1,000 damage per auto pre-mitigation, now essentially has 200+ true damage on-hit on every auto attack?

Tryndamere This'll be a slaughter.

VenomarFeb 24, 20181 votes

Darius is...

QuephaMar 8, 20181 votes

I still don't understand why they removed the uncapped fervor concept. That was more interesting than a lot of the runes they went with and I never got the impression that Riot really tried to balance it.