When will we see another AP jungler?

Thryale·Dec 29, 2014·9 votes·1,738 views

Pretty much, yeah. Most all of the recent junglers riot has released as of late have been either been heavily reliant on their ad ratios, and most of the current ap junglers were originally intended for mid lane. And no, zac and amu don't count as real ap junglers since their optimal build is pure tank with a splash of ap if they are ahead.

Of course, that is assuming that we as a league community value the idea of ap junglers. Do you guys even think that it's even worth riot's time to develop a jungler that revolves around ap itemization?

37 Comments

2kjup3bruhDec 29, 20144 votes

I'm all for more AP junglers, but only if they're not completely reliant on securing blue buff.

Duke AnaxDec 29, 20143 votes

I just discovered Ryze Jungle, works incredible well because negative MR gives magic damage bonus. (most jungle mobs start with negative MR and Ryze has build in reduction) He is not really AP though. His core is Frozen Heart.

However AP Junglers do see some use, so there is certainly enough demand for a new one.

Fiddlesticks, Shaco and Nuno for example. Warwick and Kayle to some extend. Elise and Hekarim? No sure how they are generally build, but they got the ratios. Does anyone do AP Evelynn?

ThryaleDec 29, 20141 votes

most jugnle shaco's build ad. Haven't seen an ap shaco in ages. Nunu builds ap bruiser, ww usually builds tank or ad/atkspd, and ap eve died when riot nerfed her E from dealing mag dmg to phys dmg, so she just builds tanky bruiser like the rest of the junglers.

Done25Dec 29, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7NvIgw0k,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-29T13:32:37.758+0000)

I just discovered Ryze Jungle, works incredible well because negative MR gives magic damage bonus. (most jungle mobs start with negative MR and Ryze has build in reduction) He is not really AP though. His core is Frozen Heart.

However AP Junglers do see some use, so there is certainly enough demand for a new one.

Fiddlesticks, Shaco and Nuno for example. Warwick and Kayle to some extend. Elise and Hekarim? No sure how they are generally build, but they got the ratios. Does anyone do AP Evelynn?

Ryze isn't AP? News to me. And while AP Hecarim was an amusing gimmic build at first, I would never suggest it in a ranked match.

Duke AnaxDec 29, 20141 votes

Not really, his ratios are weak, he does more damage with just mana and MR reduction.

The only AP I build on him his Abyssal Scepter and that only because Wit's End is way too weird on Ryze.

Done25Dec 29, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7NvIgw0k,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2014-12-29T18:55:23.664+0000)

Not really, his ratios are weak, he does more damage with just mana and MR reduction.

The only AP I build on him his Abyssal Scepter and that only because Wit's End is way too weird on Ryze.

His ratios are fine. Rod of Ages and Archangel are great items for him.

Duke AnaxDec 30, 20141 votes

Rod of Ages and Archangels are good because they have a huge amount of Mana, not because they have AP.

Done25Dec 30, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7NvIgw0k,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-30T04:06:22.219+0000)

Rod of Ages and Archangels are good because they have a huge amount of Mana, not because they have AP.

Or they could be good because Rod of Ages gives a lot of sustain on level up in addition to the large amounts of raw stats, and since Ryze gets a lot of mana he can get a lot of AP out of Archangel.

The only skill that really benefits building raw mana over AP is his Q. And that's only because Riot is too stupid to properly balance his numbers. (Seriously, it's weird how lopsided the scaling is on his kit is. Q is super heavy for mana and W has a slight lean towards AP, but mana barely matter for his E at all.)

Bears Dont CareDec 30, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7NvIgw0k,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-29T13:32:37.758+0000)

Does anyone do AP Evelynn?

Not really... Part of the issue is that Ravage is physical and not magical, so you're going to be building AD in order to get the armor pen. On the other hand, Hate spike is magical but its not burst type so you'll want magic pen for it. Eve is just in a really shitty spot.

SmokingPuffinDec 29, 20142 votes

Gonna be a tough needle to thread. The jungle is now very sustain reliant and AP champions rarely have much sustain.

Need a purpose built AP jungler, like Diana or Elise, if you want to get it done.

junglerboy16Dec 29, 20143 votes

AP junglers get sustain from shields (elise is an exception since she sustains through her spiderlings tanking for her) or self healing. That isn't all that broken or hard to do and manage well in a champion. Fiddlesticks is the number 1 AP jungler right now, and he has sustain for dayz, so I don't think sustain is the problem. The problem is that to make an AP jungler not a mish-mash of AP and tank (like Zac, Sejuani, Maokai, Amumu, etc.), they usually have to be very high damage (like Diana or fiddlesticks) or have a ton of EVERYTHING (like elise, which is not a good thing).

MrBuffingtonDec 30, 20141 votes

I think another issue is making sure they're a jungler and not a mid laner or something. If they're melee they tend to build more tank just for surviving jungle (Diana's sort of in an awkward place imo), and if they're ranged, well, I can only think of Fiddlesticks who has an awkward AA range (also Karthus, but he's an unusual jungler), and Elise, who's half melee and builds sort of tanky too.

ThryaleDec 30, 20141 votes

sortof tanky? try all tanky. I've never seen an elise jungle build ap bruiser, it's just all tank/utility items.

MrBuffingtonDec 30, 20141 votes

Most Elise players go Haunting Guise and Sorc Shoes into full tank on her; it's not pure tank (Of course you have the occasional player who builds DFG)

SmokingPuffinDec 30, 20141 votes

AP junglers get sustain from shields (elise is an exception since she sustains through her spiderlings tanking for her) or self healing.

That's a very narrow mechanical restriction, which is one reason why there are so few useful AP junglers in the game. If you randomly pick an AP champion, there's about a 90% chance that champion is useless in the jungle.

Fiddlesticks is the number 1 AP jungler right now, and he has sustain for dayz, so I don't think sustain is the problem.

Fiddlesticks is the number 1 AP jungler right now precisely because he has epic sustain. If other AP junglers had similar sustain, they'd probably be contenders too.

Some example AP jungle candidates who could be good but for sustain problems: Malzahar Evelynn Fizz Karthus Rumble

The problem is that to make an AP jungler not a mish-mash of AP and tank (like Zac, Sejuani, Maokai, Amumu, etc.), they usually have to be very high damage (like Diana or fiddlesticks) or have a ton of EVERYTHING (like elise, which is not a good thing).

"A mish-mash of AP and tank" is pretty much an AP bruiser, and almost all the good junglers are bruisers. Nothing wrong with being a damage-tank hybrid in the jungle; that's the normal state for most junglers.

Hasztalan2Dec 29, 20142 votes

First they should make the existing ones function pal...

ThryaleDec 30, 20141 votes

but none of the existing ap junglers were originally junglers in the first place. (except maybe eve, but riot nerfed her ap playstyle pretty hard)

Hasztalan2Dec 30, 20141 votes

{quoted}

but none of the existing ap junglers were originally junglers in the first place. (except maybe eve, but riot nerfed her ap playstyle pretty hard)

ehhem? Amumu? Nautilus? Seju? Diana( ye originally she was designed for jungle)? Nunu? Elise? Cho? etc?

ThryaleDec 30, 20141 votes

amumu was designed back when jungle was not an official role.

nautilus is a tank. riot has talked about him being a tank numerous times.

sej is a tanky bruiser. Since when have you seen a sej's core item set include dcap, dfg, or zhonya's?

diana was definitely NOT designed for jungle. She was a tanky assassin mid/top laner.

nunu was also created back when jungle was not an official role. That being said, he does live there quite comfortably. (too bad he doesn't really -do- anything T_T )

Elise is tanky/bruiser. the most ap you'll see on here is a haunting guise.

again, cho was created back before jungling was an official role.

Hasztalan2Dec 30, 20141 votes

{quoted}

amumu was designed back when jungle was not an official role.

nautilus is a tank. riot has talked about him being a tank numerous times.

sej is a tanky bruiser. Since when have you seen a sej's core item set include dcap, dfg, or zhonya's?

diana was definitely NOT designed for jungle. She was a tanky assassin mid/top laner.

nunu was also created back when jungle was not an official role. That being said, he does live there quite comfortably. (too bad he doesn't really -do- anything T_T )

Elise is tanky/bruiser. the most ap you'll see on here is a haunting guise.

again, cho was created back before jungling was an official role.

Amumu is still an AP based hero who can even be played FULL ap as many diamond players do with him

Nautilus is an AP tank as well. When he appeared items like abyssal and rod of ages were core on him and would be still good if he'D have the strength to farm it on toplane w/O getting murdered

Sej was allways AP bruiser as well and nowadays almost all the high elo sejus whom i play with uses very mixed build ending up with usually 2-300 ap

Nunu was allways created for jungle. Don't try to act ignorant, even be4 s1 jungle existed and there were many champions which were created to jungle (Nunu, Udyr and Warwick being the main guilties). Don't treat old designs as aimless as they were a lot more accurate and better designs than their current champions.

Elise was designed to be a mix. She wasnt entirely focused on jungle, hell she was thousand times better on lane than she was in jungle when she appeared. It's just typical rito motives, one they morello decided she has to jungle and they murdered her laning capabilities while left the % dmg unattended, hence why everyone started to abuse the tank build with guise on her CUZ IT WAS THE ONLY AND LAST OPTION LEFT FOR HER AVILABLE.

So what? Cho was a regular jungler back then and he'd see jungle play even now if lee sin wouldn't shape the metagame for 4 years straight.

ALl in all your answer is "well i saw on stream/read on reddit this champ is meta with x y " bullshit no offense. =)

ThryaleDec 31, 20141 votes

I've been playing this game since september 2010. I have over 2500 hrs of gameplay time. I think I know at least a little bit about what I'm talking about.

Hasztalan2Dec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

I've been playing this game since september 2010. I have over 2500 hrs of gameplay time. I think I know at least a little bit about what I'm talking about.

That doesn't have anything to do with ur knowledge about balance and gameplay.

You just listed as how YOU think they are to be played. NOthing more.

VicvictorwDec 30, 20142 votes

The Machete isn't an item that is kind to primarily AP champions in the jungle, and that seems to be the item Riot wants all junglers to have.

It really needs to have benefits that aren't restricted to "on hit."

When I Fidd jungle I don't even buy the machete, which means I lose out on some bonus gold it gives, but there is no point to having on-hit benefits if I'm just spamming W.

ThryaleDec 30, 20141 votes

this is a really good point, and something I think should be brought to riot's attention.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

The current itemization for AP junglers in incredibly lackluster. As long as this doesn't change we most likely won't see another AP jungler.

(Maybe they could add a jungle style Nashor's...)

VisigothDec 29, 20141 votes

Have you considered Karthus jungle or other more unorthodox picks (I've seen Teemo, Singed and Mordekaiser jungle work). Sure the early game can be pretty rough (if you get invaded as Karthus at level 2 or 3 you're pretty boned if you can't just flash out of it, so if Lee Sin or Rengar catch you fairly off guard you're pretty boned. But late game they're pretty fun.

I wold also suggest trying any and every possible champion that you think even might slightly work. How many people do you know that would say Kassadin jungle is actually decent? Also, ANYONE with range can work as they can kite camps. So search for a ranged champion who can gank. So basically, pick a mid laner, make sure they're ranged, and see if you can clear camps and gank lanes. You never know who you might find viable (I've seen Viktor jungle and Lucian jungle on the old SR).

ThryaleDec 30, 20141 votes

most of the mentioned ap junglers were all originally intended for other lanes.

HeadHonchkrowDec 30, 20141 votes

Karthus dosent even need to walk into lane after 6 to gank lol

FantasySniperDec 29, 20141 votes

I don't think so. Making a jungler specifically with AP as the meta build is difficult. You'd have to model them after Kayle, Cass, or Karthus, who use DPS over burst and have the utility to make ganks a reality. Itemization isn't really an issue, since we have a couple that cater well to AP junglers. Then there's the presence of Diana and Elise, who do have the kits for it, yet just aren't considered viable.

I have a concept myself, but it might be kind of outdated.

ThryaleDec 30, 20141 votes

the problem is that most champs with ap ratios are, like you said, unviable in comparison to others or just build straight tank and rely on their utility.