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Concerning Chalice

Thryale·7/15/2014, 5:14:37 PM·7 votes·3,771 views

Since FeralPony is hanging about, I thought I'd take the opportunity to bring up the subject of chalice.

I know recently riot had nerfed chalice's upgrade(unholy grail) but I do not think that fully addressed the problem with the chalice line. Right now, it's extremely frustrating to play mid lane if you don't buy chalice. And if your opponent backs before you, or you need to buy a situational item due to various reasons, the lane feels very one sided due to the fact that your lane opponent now has almost no mana issues.

Presently, when an opponent has chalice, and you don't, and assuming you both have at least one dorans ring, your opponent will consistently stay between 20% and 45% mana even while spamming spells. And if they decide to just stop and last hit, freezing the lane, it's not too uncommon for them to easily get all of their mana back.

So, does anyone think that chalice is in line for some small nerfs? Is it fine as is? or would a tweak of the passive be better?

Personally, I have two suggestions:

A) Nerf chalice: change build path from + + + 120g to + + 300g (net cost unchanged) mana/5 7 mp/5 -> 5 mp/5 unique passive: mana font: Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 1% mana you are missing. -> Increases your mana regeneration by .75% per 1% mana you are missing. (same numbers as veigar's passive before they buffed it to being identical to what chalice is presently)

notes: if these nerfs seem a bit harsh, due to the change in build path(removal of faeri charm) then as compensation, the combine cost could be lowered if necessary.

or

B) tweak the passive: mana font: Increases your mana regeneration by 2% per 1% mana you are missing while out of combat. This buff decreases to .5% per 1% mana you are missing while in combat.

notes: this way, the appeal of buying chalice is preserved(solid mana regen item) while preventing it from being oppressive in lane, and increasing it's value for high mana cost champs that can gain a lot from roaming, as it will help top them off as they go to and fro helping out their team.

Thoughts?

33 Comments

Riotricklessabandon7/16/2014, 7:19:21 AM6 votes

we have a couple of ideas for chalice changes that we intend to test in the near future, but nothing is set in stone yet. if the live gameplay team wants us to move a little earlier on them (i.e., they see chalice as an issue we should address very soon) then we might test them out on the pbe during the 4.13 or 4.14 dev cycles. otherwise, we'll likely do that testing as part of the 2015 preseason.

again, it's only testing and the timeline is uncertain, but we do have it on our radar as it were.

JackYAqua7/15/2014, 6:30:33 PM2 votes

If your arguments as to why Chalice should be nerfed are true, shouldn't heightening its cost be sufficient?
I mean, upgrade it by 70 gold alone and that gives the opposite laner a two pot advantage, which is a lot in the early game.

MarkofShame7/15/2014, 7:58:19 PM2 votes

I dont hate your idea and I see where you are coming from but heres the huge issue with any changes suggested. there are mages that REQUIRE chalice and then there are mages that LIKE chalice. nerfing it for the people that like chalice isnt a problem really because its cutting down on their spamability, but that also nerfs it for every champion that requires it. Not to mention spammy lanes dont automatically mean bad lanes. If i spend 880 gold on purely regen then im losing(in comparison to dorans rings) 160 health and 30 ap and only gained maybe 3-10 more mp5 and 25 mr.

if anything should be nerfed on chalice to bring it in line it should be the 5bonus mr it gives on combine. so it only gives 20.

Stacona7/16/2014, 4:43:01 AM2 votes

Chalice is the only high regen sustain item, RoA doesnt give any sustain just a deeper mana pool, tear grants the highest mana pool while also granting a nice amount of mana regen and archangel grants the highest ap by itself and embrace grants a hefty shield active--- chalice is fine and i dont even think grail nerfs were needed

Jbels7/15/2014, 6:13:25 PM1 votes

But isn't that the point of Chalice? More often than not, the mages on both sides are going to get chalice if they have a tendency to spam. Why do they need to have their lane sustain nerfed?

Aryst4r7/17/2014, 3:54:47 PM1 votes

In my opinion Chalice is just fine, the MR nerf it got already weakens the Mana needy laner.

it is as said that the gold spent on chalice puts u back damage-wise. also in comparison with Archangel, Grail doesnt overpower.

No mana sustain leads the mana needy midlainers to: Go in, combo, MAYBE kill --> OoM thus having to recall...whilst someone like for instance Garen can go in combo his ass off, ult..but still sustain further due to the no cost of resources. Maybe he is bad example..he and kata may be bad example

but take energy users...they step back from battle and regain energy MUCH faster then mana champs gain mana + they have energy restoring ability criteria!

nerfing chalice further then it already has = bad idea

JedditeFTW7/15/2014, 6:26:30 PM1 votes

Changing the Mana Font passive to "Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 2% mana you are missing" would be a phenomenal change for ARAM. Dunno if such a change is really necessary on Summoner's Rift, but with limited exception, no APC or support goes wrong when starting with a Chalice.

With such a change, I'd leave the existing Mana Font on Athene's as is. Means players must choose between rushing Athene's for the mana regen passives, or starting Chalice and rushing another AP item first for more powerful spells.

Labcown7/16/2014, 2:25:00 PM1 votes

I do agree with your opinion that chalice is pretty oppressive in the fact that it's pushing out most other sustain items, because it is typically the beginning and end-all item when it comes to mana sustain.

However, unlike most people I do actually like it's presence in the game, it provides a focus (mana sustain) that was sorely lacking before with other items. You had item 3070 and item 3010 before of course, but their purposes didn't hone in on the problem the way chalice does.

I think instead of nerfing anything about chalice, the opposite approach needs to be taken. Chalice needs a slight buff and an increased gold cost to make to delay the power spike of that powerful passive by another minute or 2.

So instead of having:

item 3028 Chalice of Harmony

+ + + 120g = 880g Total Cost

*+25 Magic Resistance +7 Mana Regeneration

Unique Passive: Mana Font: Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 1% mana you are missing

Why not make use of a new item that hardly anyone builds to help ease the transition between chalice and Athene's, like so:

item 3028 Chalice of Harmony

+ + 120g = 1220g Total Cost

*+25 Magic Resistance +10 Mana Regeneration +10% Cooldown Reduction

Unique Passive: Mana Font: Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 1% mana you are missing*

This change would help those who actually rely on Chalice as a means for mana regen, and possibly help cut back on the few champions who use it only as a lane bully tool, since it would require a heavier investment to actually reach it now, limiting it's window of opportunity to harass mid-laners in the early game.

The only issue I can see with a recipe change like this is that Mikael's recipe would also have to be altered, since it already uses Chalice + Idol for it's recipe.

Jingerbeardman7/16/2014, 6:41:52 PM1 votes

I would be very aggregated if chalice and unholy grail had its mana regen hit even more than it already just was. I am already feeling a massive reduction in my fight time with karma, my main, especially since unholy grail is essentially her staple item when not played as support.