Concerning Chalice

Thryale·Jul 15, 2014·7 votes·3,771 views

Since FeralPony is hanging about, I thought I'd take the opportunity to bring up the subject of chalice.

I know recently riot had nerfed chalice's upgrade(unholy grail) but I do not think that fully addressed the problem with the chalice line. Right now, it's extremely frustrating to play mid lane if you don't buy chalice. And if your opponent backs before you, or you need to buy a situational item due to various reasons, the lane feels very one sided due to the fact that your lane opponent now has almost no mana issues.

Presently, when an opponent has chalice, and you don't, and assuming you both have at least one dorans ring, your opponent will consistently stay between 20% and 45% mana even while spamming spells. And if they decide to just stop and last hit, freezing the lane, it's not too uncommon for them to easily get all of their mana back.

So, does anyone think that chalice is in line for some small nerfs? Is it fine as is? or would a tweak of the passive be better?

Personally, I have two suggestions:

A) Nerf chalice: change build path from + + + 120g to + + 300g (net cost unchanged) mana/5 7 mp/5 -> 5 mp/5 unique passive: mana font: Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 1% mana you are missing. -> Increases your mana regeneration by .75% per 1% mana you are missing. (same numbers as veigar's passive before they buffed it to being identical to what chalice is presently)

notes: if these nerfs seem a bit harsh, due to the change in build path(removal of faeri charm) then as compensation, the combine cost could be lowered if necessary.

B) tweak the passive: mana font: Increases your mana regeneration by 2% per 1% mana you are missing while out of combat. This buff decreases to .5% per 1% mana you are missing while in combat.

notes: this way, the appeal of buying chalice is preserved(solid mana regen item) while preventing it from being oppressive in lane, and increasing it's value for high mana cost champs that can gain a lot from roaming, as it will help top them off as they go to and fro helping out their team.

Thoughts?

33 Comments

RiotricklessabandonJul 16, 20146 votes

we have a couple of ideas for chalice changes that we intend to test in the near future, but nothing is set in stone yet. if the live gameplay team wants us to move a little earlier on them (i.e., they see chalice as an issue we should address very soon) then we might test them out on the pbe during the 4.13 or 4.14 dev cycles. otherwise, we'll likely do that testing as part of the 2015 preseason.

again, it's only testing and the timeline is uncertain, but we do have it on our radar as it were.

ThryaleJul 16, 20142 votes

That's good to know. I appreciate the fact that you guys are at least aware of the situation. :) As I've mentioned to others in the thread, I don't think it's particularly egregious, but it is frustrating to play against at it's price point.

btw, would you mind telling us what your current sentiment is towards chalice?

i.e. it does too much for what it costs / it is available too early / is it it's base stats that are too strong? or is it it's passive is just so powerful?

So yeah, just what about chalice attracted the attention of the live balance team in the first place? And has any of it been mentioned already in this thread?

JackYAquaJul 15, 20142 votes

If your arguments as to why Chalice should be nerfed are true, shouldn't heightening its cost be sufficient?
I mean, upgrade it by 70 gold alone and that gives the opposite laner a two pot advantage, which is a lot in the early game.

ThryaleJul 15, 20141 votes

That's an interesting point, I like it.

My suggestions were just that, suggestions, and I'm open to hear what other ideas you guys may have.

But back you your comment, I think that increasing the gold cost from 120 to 200 would be a decent nerf, but would not completely address the problem of mana management. It does, however, open other avenues, such as, like you mentioned, a health sustain advantage.

MarkofShameJul 15, 20142 votes

I dont hate your idea and I see where you are coming from but heres the huge issue with any changes suggested. there are mages that REQUIRE chalice and then there are mages that LIKE chalice. nerfing it for the people that like chalice isnt a problem really because its cutting down on their spamability, but that also nerfs it for every champion that requires it. Not to mention spammy lanes dont automatically mean bad lanes. If i spend 880 gold on purely regen then im losing(in comparison to dorans rings) 160 health and 30 ap and only gained maybe 3-10 more mp5 and 25 mr.

if anything should be nerfed on chalice to bring it in line it should be the 5bonus mr it gives on combine. so it only gives 20.

ThryaleJul 15, 20142 votes

You bring up some good points. You are right that there are some champs (like swain and anivia) that would be extremely adversely affected by any nerfs to this item. But is that a problem with the item itself? or a problem with the champ? If a champ is using any single item as a crux for viability, then riot should look into fixing the champ.

That issue aside, I see the mr nerf as a fair alternative, if the base mp/5 were dropped a little. But neither of these actually addresses the issue of an opponent dropping into a 'danger zone' of low mana then quickly acquiring enough mana to counteract any attempt at punishing said opponent.

The primary problem with chalice is that it is most effective when champs are oom. It quickly and easily raises their current mana to at least the 40% mark in only a handful of seconds.

Now, for your example of 2 d rings vs 1 d ring and a chalice (let's face it, almost everyone starts d ring) the primary advantage champ A has over champ B is that champ A was able to afford hp pots and maybe a ward or two. The +80 hp is helpful against all in burst, but less effective against constant harrass(which chalice enables) but the +15 ap is nothing for 2 reasons:

at that early of a stage, most mages rely upon their base dmg rather than their ratios, which average around .6 ap so you'd be getting +/- 9 extra dmg on your spells(mileage varies based on champ of course)
the +25 mr is far more impactful early on because going from 30 to 55 mr has some of the biggest gains as far as defensive scaling is concerned.

thus, any offensive advantage 2 d rings gives is balanced out by the defensive advantage of chalice, which boils down to who can land their harass more reliably and/or more often.

MarkofShameJul 15, 20141 votes

well first just to clarify I was comparing the gold value of 880 gold this would be assuming you had 2 additional dorans rings or in a more realistic sense one extra dorans then an amp tome so that would sit you at 80 bonus health, 25 bonus ap, some regen and at least one additional potion.

Now you pointed something out, that the problem is with the champions that require chalice, and to a certain extent that is true, but when looking at changes you ALWAYS look for the smallest changes that solve as many problems as possible while causing the least churn. You are saying that buffing every hugely mana hungry champion is the easiest way to balance chalice? The problem that exsists is this lack of "danger zone" and the extra spammy mid lanes, but I personally dont see those as inherently bad for the game or create really toxic or uncounterable situations.

The fact is if they nerf chalic they WILL have to buff all the champions that its mandatory on, and its not as simple as reducing a cost here or there or buffing base mp5 by 1-2. And that would mean buffs required for at least 7 champions and very possibly more. To me I dont see how removing the previous small "potential" issues would be worth so much extra work.

I dont mean to say I disagree with you in that it would be GREAT if those champions could function without it, but in any game with so much content time IS important. Just because something would could be better with changes that doesnt mean its worth a large portion of time to fix a really small problem.

EDIT: a thought to balance the regen. Make base mp5 on the item 10 and have it strictly increase the mp5 CHALICE gives by 1% per mana missing. That way it doesnt increase all of your mp5, but still provides the effect its looking for. I suspect that would reduce its power quite a lot though, might even need to give 12 mp5.

ThryaleJul 15, 20141 votes

Understood. However, do remember that I am only asking for chalice changes, not athenes. Champs that rely on the chalice passive to function will still have that massive mana sustain when they upgrade to athenes.(which I'm pretty certain the rush anyway due to the necessity of the sustain for those few champs) So in reality, yes, their laning will be worse for wear, but they will still be just as viable as they were before the chalice nerfs once they upgrade to athenes.

In fact, such a trade (small mp/5 buffs or mana cost reductions for the chalice nerf) would be quite beneficial to these particular champs, as they'd then have a net buff once they upgrade to athene's. Thus their over all appeal will go up in general.

As for your last comment, I do find that as an interesting alternative, having chalice only affect it's own mana regen. However, this is a pretty big change, and I feel that it would require a ton of testing to get right. I also feel that it is a more 'dangerous' change than others due to it greatly affecting the feel of the item in general.

MarkofShameJul 15, 20141 votes

The issue though is chalice exists for one purpose. To encourage spell usage. If you make it so that it gives less in combat you are actually encouraging the two things that are actaully counter productive.

you encourage passiveness as to get the full regen you must stay out of combat(that would even mean having to choose between cs and casting spells which again would create horrible counter synergy between it and Dorans ring.)
it would only help the people that like to instant waveclear then roam since they could use all their mana to push and by the time they got to a side lane they would regenerate most of it back.

One thing worth pointing out is a lot of people(myself included) dont actually rush athenes now that it was nerfed. in lane is is actualy a terrible purchase and only really helps in the mid game. While if im behind or being passive I might pick it up early its not a must rush item anymore and so the idea of "nerfing chalice only nerfs those champions for a few mins" isnt completely accurate.

I guess the question Is are you wanting to just straight up reduce the amount of spells people can cast mid or are you saying that to cast those spells there should be a bigger trade off?

ThryaleJul 15, 20141 votes

I guess what I'm really looking for is an engagement window.

For example, from lvl 1-5 before champs back, you have to carefully manage your mana and watch your opponent's mana. If they carelessly let their mana get too low, that's an opportunity for you to go in and win a trade, or make a play.

but once the champs back and get chalice, that engagement window is either no longer there, or so short, that you cannot safely go in without repercussions. It also allows you and your opponent to sling spells without worry of running oom for an extended period of time, and actually makes it better to just wave clear and simply wait for the next wave to show up.

Thus this causes champs with poor wave clear to be less viable in lane due to their inability to counter shove the lane. They have all this mana due to last hitting, but with no clear window to punish their opponents from spell spamming, it becomes frustrating.

MarkofShameJul 16, 20141 votes

Okay, I see what you mean by that and to a point that makes sense, but the problem is, since mana regen exsists there will always be the option to build it. As long as mana regen is allowed in the game there needs to be an item that fills the "this will make sure within a reasonable situation you will never oom". That item has to exist because there will always be at least 3 champions that NEED it to function and those champions you cant fix to not need it because the entire game is balanced around mana regen existing. Not even a single mage should be REQUIRED to buy more than one regen item because it would make them completely nonviable in any competitive situation.

And on the flip side when mana regen is harder to get, then resource-less champions with any kind of wave clear dominate extremely hard(yasuo, zed, kat, riven and even talon/kha could be put in this to some extent).

I truly dont believe the mana regen on chalice is the problem. The problem is it gives you all the regen you need in a reasonable situation which is convinient. AND gives you mr which is your primary defense stat in mid AND is very cost efficient to both piece together and combine. Not to mention it increases the effectiveness of ALL your mp5 including runes/masteries/base/dorans.

The thing about regen items being useful is that they provide a hidden benefit. ITS CONVENIENT! not many people NEED that amount of regen, but buy it anyway because why not? its cost efficient and gives you defenses so why not get the perk of being able to spam? I remember back in season 1 and 2 pros shunned mana regen saying "you just need to manage mana better" because ideally that is what you want to do, but the second athenes was released it was like FUCK THAT LOL SPAMAWAY. Not because mana regen got BETTER, but because people were like "oh wow I like action, I like DOING things, I like this item because it gives me what I need and I get the perk of getting what I want. Not many items give both what you need AND what you want and the ones that do are always considered really strong. (aka hexdrinker, dorans items, bveil, frostfang items)

I think if they removed the 5 bonus mr, upped the cost to 950(tops) it would be fine. or left the cost the same still taken the 5 mr and made it something liek 12 mp5 and only increase the % mana regen from the item itself then it would also again have a good role to play.

Im not even saying riot wont take that sort of idea you suggested and roll with it, but i think objectively from a holistic point of view your idea of nerfing the chalice would cause A LOT more work than modifying the chalice to suit its purpose.

ThryaleJul 16, 20141 votes

Aye, lots of good stuff.

My problem with chalice isn't that it gives sustain, because tear gives sustain too, for the same price. My issue is that it provides too much sustain for when it can be purchased.

So, here are my thoughts for a more toned down version of the first suggestion:

A) reduce the passive from 1% per 1% missing to .75% per 1% missing and raise the cost by 80g (seriously the combine cost is only 120g, that's crazy for the passive it provides)

B) change the build path from 2 fae charms to 1 fae charm, reduce the mp/5 from 7 to 4 increase the combine cost from 120 to 300(net cost is unchanged)

What about that? Personally, I prefer the former over the latter, but I figured I'd put both out there for criticism.

the reason I like the first one, is that it takes a stab at what I see to be the heart of the problem, little to no window of engagement for those that go oom. Also, presently, chalice is gold efficient even without the passive. So even with the changes listed in the former, you are still getting your gold's worth out of it if you include the passive. (efficiency is at 104%, increasing the combine cost to 200 will cause it to dip into around 95% or so, but again, that is not counting the passive)

MarkofShameJul 16, 20141 votes

I mean again those arent awful balance ideas, but I think nerfing the regen chalice gives is a worse alternative than where we are at. I use windows of engagement all the time. If someone is at 20% mana they cant use their full combo. They might get 1-2 spells off but they cant do everything in their kit and if they can do it all with 20% mana they didnt need chalice in the first place. Yes there isnt as much of the "how much mana do they have what can they cast? decision making, but that doesnt actually put you at some sort of disadvantage, it merely changes what matters in the fight. I actually think the "lower mana you are the more you get" is a really good way to keep the power because the only time someone is getting maximum effect is when they CANT combo. It's easy to say "no one ever ooms with chalice", but thats simply not the case. I find myself oom with chalice all the t ime, thats why I supplement it with 1-2 dorans rings. With those I wont oom, but then again that isnt chalices regen thats the scaling regen from outside sources that could be fixed by limited its regen to that item exclusively.

My point is riot has a strict method of nerfing and buffing things. "buff the things that make it what it is and make it strong, but nerf the things that arent necessary to its purpose. Thats why they never nerfed lb's damage because that is WHY you pick her. Was she frustrating and completely imbalanced for the laning phase? yes, but you dont nerf the thing about lb that makes people pick her and its the same thing with chalice. You nerf the free invisible power, aka the MR or you increase its cost.

All im saying is that based on what they say and what their track record riot isnt likely to take the route that you suggest because its just unfun to buy an item that is meant to be the best at what it does but isnt really better than the other options. Contrary to popular belief catalyst gives a solid amount of regen with the perk of flat health and regen of health as well on it and tear is a lot stronger than people consider it in comparison to chalice. strictly speaking chalice is actaully the worst of the 3 as far as overall regen purchases, BUT it builds into a high mp5 high cdr item and doesnt require you to have low cd abilities to make use of the passive and at a decent cost.

I think really whats going on is a philosophy difference. I personally dont think that the repercussions of nerfing the regen on chalice would balance out the lack of "downtime" in mid because i dont think mages casting more spells is particularly "bad" for the game even though you personally dislike it. Im not invalidating your opinion, just trying to explain that unfortunately what you're looking for conflicts with how riot tends to rein in things that are too strong or warping the game play.

ThryaleJul 16, 20141 votes

I understand. I don't think mages casting more is bad either. I just don't enjoy it when mages don't need to be conscious of their mana when they do it.

It's one thing with a mage is able to cast spell A every time it's off cd, but maintain a 40-50% mana, than it is for a mage to spam his full rotation of spells everytime it's off cd knowing that when it's all up again, the mage's mana will be enough to use his rotation again.

Again, I'm not saying that is what always happens just because of chalice (this same scenario can be reproduced with blue buff, but that's a different issue completely, it's more egregious, but comes with more costs thus it's fine)

So I suppose what it boils down to is that for what chalice provides, it just doesn't have a high enough cost, thus I was trying to bring down what it provides to match it's cost rather than increasing it's cost to match what it provides.

Aryst4rJul 18, 20141 votes

Leblanc has combo that requires to be done 2 times at level 3 to kill someone, and 1 time at level 6.

she can do this combo about 3-4 times with the mana pool between level 1-6 not calculated she has a dorans...

now please tell me how u think such an OP damage champion should be able to do all that with 1 mana pool and you would blame others doing it with buying an item AND having a more easy to dodge combo AND having to do it more often.

like i said this whole chalice discussion is a mistake and unneeded. dont make midlaners a role in which we have to dance around like at baron just to get 1 combo of and are punished by a recall if u miss...

MarkofShameJul 19, 20141 votes

Actually, I think you brought up a really good point. I would say blue buff is a way bigger offender than chalice. Obviously this conversation is chalice related, but I'd still like to give a brief mention of blue and why it might be the bigger issue. Chalice provides substatial sustain, but it is at the price of a significant gold investment early on and generally requires you to be invested in it. Again like before I do sincerely think that for the stats it gives it probably is too cheap, but in general i think what its trying to accomplish being an item isnt unhealthy for the game.

Now consider on the other hand a buff that is up every 5 mins and gives you a 3 minute buff that, lets face it, makes you OP if you use mana(sometimes energy too). It requires 10 seconds of investment and your ability to plan around it is impossible because you have no idea when your jungler may or may not give it to you and even if he plans to there is always the option for invades. Now im not saying blue should be given to you all the time, what im saying is that if your opponent is a mana user and has blue and you dont, whether you have a chalice or not, you're gonna have a bad time.

I just feel like a buff giving you SO much power that can be utilized either passively(wave clearing instantly) or aggressively(spamming poke with mana/cdr) is just too much power to be so unreliable. Again, not trying to shift the conversation away, but I think its worth discussing since the core of what your problem was, is the regretless spamming.

there is also a lot of commonalities because 9/10 times the champions that rely so much on blue are the ones that buy a chalice. That compounds the problem because legit, I run out of mana with chalice and while it takes away the extreme management, but its not at all infinite mana by any means. If it is then you probably didnt need the chalice anyway.

I would really love to see blue being shifted much closer to red buff in that it only rewards offensive play. Something like "auto attacking monsters or champions restors X% mana" obviously it would need to be tuned around that, but I think it being able to be utilized for nothing other than removing the mana costs on spells is silly. There should be decisions in it, much like you said before with chalice. It would need to work on monsters so it was effective while jungling, but if it worked on minions it would need to be just reduced in power instead of the power being shifted.

Just my two cents though on the topic about the idea of "the state of mid lanes mana management" that I sort of didnt think about when the focus was on just chalice.

StaconaJul 16, 20142 votes

Chalice is the only high regen sustain item, RoA doesnt give any sustain just a deeper mana pool, tear grants the highest mana pool while also granting a nice amount of mana regen and archangel grants the highest ap by itself and embrace grants a hefty shield active--- chalice is fine and i dont even think grail nerfs were needed

ThryaleJul 16, 20142 votes

if you do not think catalyst of the protector gives sustain, you are sorely mistaken. Also, "Chalice is the only high regen sustain item" IS the problem. It provides too much for too little cost.

JbelsJul 15, 20141 votes

But isn't that the point of Chalice? More often than not, the mages on both sides are going to get chalice if they have a tendency to spam. Why do they need to have their lane sustain nerfed?

ThryaleJul 15, 20142 votes

because it invalidates other sustain items, such as catalyst of the protector, tear of the goddess, etc.

Not to mention, chalice is just so good, that it feels like you are required to get it.

Also, something I wish to point out, is that during the laning phase, mid lane is about mana management and cooldown tracking. The problem with chalice, is that it removes the "oh, X champ is low on mana, I can go in on him, and punish him for getting so low" because with chalice, champs don't stay within that danger zone of low mana long enough for you to be able to punish them for it.

JbelsJul 15, 20141 votes

Well, Catalyst only builds into one thing, and not every champion wants RoA. Tear of the Goddess I love taking on Veigar, because he already has a built in chalice passive anyway, and as for Chalice itself I remember when people considered it a wasted slot late game, and then they made Athenes so you wouldn't feel bad for wanting the chalice for lane sustain. It seems like with every solution to one problem, there is always another one that pops up.

ThryaleJul 15, 20142 votes

True that.

As for catalyst, it is definitely in need of some build path love. But I still remember buying chalice way back just because of how powerful it was in lane and in the mid game. I also remembered being called a noob and troll for doing so, but that infinite sustain in lane certainly made my enemies hate me. ;)

Speaking of veigar, sad part is, I still feel the need to buy chalice on him as well, simply because his mana costs are so high, I sometimes can't even tell he has a chalice passive. XD

JbelsJul 15, 20141 votes

It just seems like items are becoming harder and harder for Riot to balance.

ThryaleJul 15, 20143 votes

I wouldn't say it's any harder than it used to be. Quite honestly, the items of S3 and S2 were far more imbalanced than they are now, but with the constant addition of new champs and balance changes throws things out of balance all the time.

So even if item A was broken op, no one would use it because the champs that used it were trash. But once those champs got buffed item A is now in the spot light. Not to mention many other things can also come into play.

For example, if item B sucked, but a ton of champs still needed/used it, buffing it would be extremely dangerous, as you would have to analyze how it would impact all of those champs, in addition to any new champs that may want to start using it.

So honestly, balancing items has always been harder than balancing champs due to the nature of numbers. So, I actually think riot has gotten better at balancing items, but it's just that, nothing will ever be perfectly balanced, so they must continue balancing.

JedditeFTWJul 15, 20141 votes

Changing the Mana Font passive to "Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 2% mana you are missing" would be a phenomenal change for ARAM. Dunno if such a change is really necessary on Summoner's Rift, but with limited exception, no APC or support goes wrong when starting with a Chalice.

With such a change, I'd leave the existing Mana Font on Athene's as is. Means players must choose between rushing Athene's for the mana regen passives, or starting Chalice and rushing another AP item first for more powerful spells.

ThryaleJul 15, 20141 votes

Just for clarity, 1% per 2% mana missing is the same as .5% per 1% mana missing.

Now, with that said, this is also a good approach, as I have no issue with athene's in it's current iteration. Thus nerfing the passive alone would be a good idea, it's simple and to the point.

LabcownJul 16, 20141 votes

I do agree with your opinion that chalice is pretty oppressive in the fact that it's pushing out most other sustain items, because it is typically the beginning and end-all item when it comes to mana sustain.

However, unlike most people I do actually like it's presence in the game, it provides a focus (mana sustain) that was sorely lacking before with other items. You had item 3070 and item 3010 before of course, but their purposes didn't hone in on the problem the way chalice does.

I think instead of nerfing anything about chalice, the opposite approach needs to be taken. Chalice needs a slight buff and an increased gold cost to make to delay the power spike of that powerful passive by another minute or 2.

So instead of having:

item 3028 Chalice of Harmony

+ + + 120g = 880g Total Cost

*+25 Magic Resistance +7 Mana Regeneration

Unique Passive: Mana Font: Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 1% mana you are missing

Why not make use of a new item that hardly anyone builds to help ease the transition between chalice and Athene's, like so:

item 3028 Chalice of Harmony

+ + 120g = 1220g Total Cost

*+25 Magic Resistance +10 Mana Regeneration +10% Cooldown Reduction

Unique Passive: Mana Font: Increases your mana regeneration by 1% per 1% mana you are missing*

This change would help those who actually rely on Chalice as a means for mana regen, and possibly help cut back on the few champions who use it only as a lane bully tool, since it would require a heavier investment to actually reach it now, limiting it's window of opportunity to harass mid-laners in the early game.

The only issue I can see with a recipe change like this is that Mikael's recipe would also have to be altered, since it already uses Chalice + Idol for it's recipe.

ThryaleJul 16, 20141 votes

I actually like this idea. I was hesitant to adding more stats on an already gold efficient item, but I do agree that this may be what it needs. Especially since athene's provides 20% cdr, this change also fits the build path as well.

Although, if we are going to increase the mana regen due to incorporating forbidden idol into the recipe, I think it would be appropriate to increase the combine cost just a tad to compinsate, even if it's just a 30g increase for example.

Aryst4rJul 17, 20141 votes

Like the idea of delaying it, but 1220 is way to much

the way you put it i'd rather have its MR reduced -5...

making chalice that expensive will make it dropped by all builds and make tear the to-go item, PLUS u will have nerfed the champions who NEED chalice.

In general im against further nerfs/adjustments to the Athene and chalice. they have been working fine a long time, just because nowadays there is a trend in where it iss used more, doesnt mean its OP. the reduced MR nerf of the previous patch was unwanted but objectively seen it was needed. but this atm chalice discussion of another nerf/adjustment is just unwanted and unneeded.

ThryaleJul 18, 20141 votes

What you need to understand about this suggestion is this: the mana regen has not been made inaccessible to those that need it. The build path now includes a solid mana regen item for your first stop back. Forbidden idol provides a good chunk of mana regen for laning. Yes, some mages will still need to watch their spell usage, but it does not make them unplayble. Thus it delays the actual chalice passive that distorts the laning phase by several minutes. But, on the upside, chalice now provides the ever so valuable cdr stat sooner due to the incorporation of forbidden idol into the build path.

JingerbeardmanJul 16, 20141 votes

I would be very aggregated if chalice and unholy grail had its mana regen hit even more than it already just was. I am already feeling a massive reduction in my fight time with karma, my main, especially since unholy grail is essentially her staple item when not played as support.

Aryst4rJul 17, 20141 votes

In my opinion Chalice is just fine, the MR nerf it got already weakens the Mana needy laner.

it is as said that the gold spent on chalice puts u back damage-wise. also in comparison with Archangel, Grail doesnt overpower.

No mana sustain leads the mana needy midlainers to: Go in, combo, MAYBE kill --> OoM thus having to recall...whilst someone like for instance Garen can go in combo his ass off, ult..but still sustain further due to the no cost of resources. Maybe he is bad example..he and kata may be bad example

but take energy users...they step back from battle and regain energy MUCH faster then mana champs gain mana + they have energy restoring ability criteria!

nerfing chalice further then it already has = bad idea

ThryaleJul 17, 20141 votes

My good friend, chalice did not have it's mr nerfed, that was grail you're thinking about.

Also, I've addressed this point in another post, but chalice does not set you behind in damage. This is because for the same amount of gold spent on chalice, an equal amount of gold in an offensive item is not much considering most ap mid's ap ratios will not let them over come the amount of dmg reduction provided from chalice. The vast majority of midlaners all rely on their base damages from lvls 1-7(give or take a lvl or two)

For example, if a spell had a base of 100 dmg + a .5 ap ratio and you got a blasting wand(860g) you'd do 120 dmg. But your opponent now has chalice(880g) and now has about 33% dmg reduction so you go to about 80 dmg, if the champ didn't have chalice, they'd take roughly 20% reduced dmg, so you'd see about 96 dmg instead. if neither of you went back to shop, you'd be seeing 80 dmg from your 100 base dmg spell.

See? it roughly balances out to almost negating your power item, while providing a ton of regen that you don't have. Now, these numbers are just approximations, but you get the idea. Also, the more dmg the spell does, the more dmg that mr is reducing, so a higher base dmg spell will actually lose more dmg than you gain by buying an offensive item.

As for energy users and those with no resources, they have other draw backs, like longer cd's that can be easily exploited, or lower base dmgs to compensate for having more reliable harass.

But again, chalice has not been nerfed recently, so it's kinda hard to say "nerfing it further"