Sooo... any word on Lissandra's new passive?

Voidac·May 5, 2015·20 votes·6,935 views

Meddler spoke of an update for my favorite Ice Witch... and all we've seen besides some love for her ultimate is nerfs. So any update on her passive or maybe possible future changes to her?

29 Comments

OrangesilkMay 5, 201513 votes

It happened like this:

-Lissandra was heavily underpowered, Meddler promised us a new passive and in the meantime small buffs.

-Buffs made her viable, new passive could have been nice but was delayed.

-Kalista was released, we needed someone to point-and-click murder her, Lissandra top became a thing. Passive completely forgotten at this point.

-People unable to cope with the meta change Liss brought to toplane bitched and moaned on the forums. "But she's RANGED and has CC, how am I supposed to faceroll Riven, Renekton or Darius against her now?, NERF". Any plans to buff her completely scrapped.

-She was given the Lulu treatment and was nerfed out of the toplane (strategic diversity ftw) so the bruiser players wouldn't go on a hissy fit and so they could still play their gapclose into steroid to win champions without thinking when to engage. Any buffs to her would be ill-received by the community and she'll stay dead.

Kalista remains ridiculous though. This is the best example of kneejerk balancing. Instead of letting players adapt to the meta (Siege mages fuck up short range mages like Liss, and guess what?, retarded bruisers and assassins are great at taking out siege mages on a long lane like toplane) Riot instanerfs at the speed of light, I mean, hell, Lissandra was how we were adapting to the retarded mobility meta.

AnidanMay 5, 20155 votes

Lissandra was a strong top before Kalista -- Kalista just cemented Lissandra's value as a top laner because you have a short-range AP CC mage for the teamfights later on, and can have someone else in mid for roaming. This also meant that ganks from mid to top were extremely deadly due to Lissandra's CC, allowing both her and the mid-laner to snowball to Hell and back, in case the mid laner couldn't get many ganks on bot lane to attempt those kills.

She and a few other champions are the best answers we have for a mobility meta. Notice that anything that is good at countering mobility as a whole generally gets nerfs requested fairly often (Lissandra, Annie, Taric (before his nerfs) being prominent examples).

They also usually have something appended to their ability to counter mobility (point and click, very fast/instant abilities) but what people fail to realize is that that's pretty much what it takes to counter mobility in this game. If you allow the mobile to counterplay what is supposed to be their counterplay, what was the point of adding it in the first place?

That same concept applies to a lot more than just mobility, by the way. If a champion has a weakness, but they have a great defense for the weakness and so their weakness only serves to bait people in that are seeking to exploit said weakness, then it's not really a weakness is it?

KingsgraveMay 5, 20156 votes

{quoted}

It happened like this:

-Lissandra was heavily underpowered, Meddler promised us a new passive and in the meantime small buffs.

-Buffs made her viable, new passive could have been nice but was delayed.

-Kalista was released, we needed someone to point-and-click murder her, Lissandra top became a thing. Passive completely forgotten at this point.

-People unable to cope with the meta change Liss brought to toplane bitched and moaned on the forums. "But she's RANGED and has CC, how am I supposed to faceroll Riven, Renekton or Darius against her now?, NERF". Any plans to buff her completely scrapped.

-She was given the Lulu treatment and was nerfed out of the toplane (strategic diversity ftw) so the bruiser players wouldn't go on a hissy fit and so they could still play their gapclose into steroid to win champions without thinking when to engage. Any buffs to her would be ill-received by the community and she'll stay dead.

Kalista remains ridiculous though. This is the best example of kneejerk balancing. Instead of letting players adapt to the meta (Siege mages fuck up short range mages like Liss, and guess what?, retarded bruisers and assassins are great at taking out siege mages on a long lane like toplane) Riot instanerfs at the speed of light, I mean, hell, Lissandra was how we were adapting to the retarded mobility meta.

A new passive was never promised. It was mentioned Meddler was trying it out but he never promised anything.

RiotMeddlerMay 6, 201512 votes

No current plans/nothing in progress right now. Did some experimentation a while back with a shield passive based off CCing enemies, wasn't able to hit on a version that generated sufficient decisions and satisfaction without putting a lot more power into it than could be afforded without nerfing her significantly elsewhere though. Might take another crack at passive explorations at some point, would be inclined to explore other variants on mana or mana regen effects next. See whether pushing the 'Lissandra has different interactions with mana costs and casting' aspect can be accentuated more.

SelegunMay 6, 20151 votes

What about some sort of passive based around the idea of ice? What I mean by this would be playing up the fact that she is the queen of ice by applying a slow based on her proximity to her target with a very powerful slow if her model is in contact with enemy units.

TransgressorMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No current plans/nothing in progress right now. Did some experimentation a while back with a shield passive based off CCing enemies, wasn't able to hit on a version that generated sufficient decisions and satisfaction without putting a lot more power into it than could be afforded without nerfing her significantly elsewhere though. Might take another crack at passive explorations at some point, would be inclined to explore other variants on mana or mana regen effects next. See whether pushing the 'Lissandra has different interactions with mana costs and casting' aspect can be accentuated more.

Thank you. She never was in need of a change anyways. Her passive is already pretty nifty in times of use and helps her mana sustain in lane. It also goes hand to hand with her short range and fits her thematic of a powerful being(she's a Watcher)obsessing a female body. It makes sense that for fixed intervals she is able to channel her full power(her next ability costs nothing) because her vessel can't handle her at her fullest so she purposefully handicaps herself to maintain her form untill the time is right.

JingerbeardmanMay 7, 20151 votes

she isnt a watcher... she is a frostborn. she also does not inhabit other bodies she changes her form to look human and blends in. not sure where you are getting your info.

TransgressorMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

she isnt a watcher... she is a frostborn. she also does not inhabit other bodies she changes her form to look human and blends in. not sure where you are getting your info.

I'll have that one checked out, but Isn't she supposed to be the possessed sister of Ashe and Sejuani ?

JingerbeardmanMay 7, 20151 votes

nah, she is just the leader of the Frostguard which is another tribe/city state within the Freljord. Centuries ago she killed the leader of the frostguard and using her magic changed her appearance and assumed their identity. Making sure to blend in properly and not raise suspicion she made it look like she aged like a normal human. When she felt her assumed identity had become to old she would feign her death, wait in the shadows for the next successor to take power, kill them, assume their identity and continue her reign. Once that identity was old she would repeat the process and has ever since.

I can see how you got confused into thinking she was possessing other peoples bodies. The wording they chose to use does make it seem that way but it is merely a facade she upholds and her body does not actually age, she just makes it look like it does.

The sisters in the story of the howling abyss are Lissandra and her two sisters, Avarosa and the other one rarely mentioned... they betrayed their tribe and handed it over to the watchers for great power and were turned into Iceborn (not frostborn got frostguard and iceborn mixed up before). Avarosa eventually came to regret her decision and mounted an assault against the watchers, eventually forcing them into hiding where they have been ever since. Lissandra however stayed loyal to the watchers and the rest is summed up pretty well in her champion Bio.

so the simple answer as to if she is the possessed sister of ashe and sejuani is no. Ashe and Sejuani are not sisters either, just leaders of different clans in the feljord.

TransgressorMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

nah, she is just the leader of the Frostguard which is another tribe/city state within the Freljord. Centuries ago she killed the leader of the frostguard and using her magic changed her appearance and assumed their identity. Making sure to blend in properly and not raise suspicion she made it look like she aged like a normal human. When she felt her assumed identity had become to old she would feign her death, wait in the shadows for the next successor to take power, kill them, assume their identity and continue her reign. Once that identity was old she would repeat the process and has ever since.

I can see how you got confused into thinking she was possessing other peoples bodies. The wording they chose to use does make it seem that way but it is merely a facade she upholds and her body does not actually age, she just makes it look like it does.

The sisters in the story of the howling abyss are Lissandra and her two sisters, Avarosa and the other one rarely mentioned... they betrayed their tribe and handed it over to the watchers for great power and were turned into Iceborn (not frostborn got frostguard and iceborn mixed up before). Avarosa eventually came to regret her decision and mounted an assault against the watchers, eventually forcing them into hiding where they have been ever since. Lissandra however stayed loyal to the watchers and the rest is summed up pretty well in her champion Bio.

so the simple answer as to if she is the possessed sister of ashe and sejuani is no. Ashe and Sejuani are not sisters either, just leaders of different clans in the feljord.

All of my wat. I thought avarosa was a dude, that lissandra was a watcher herself waiting for her kind to return in a manner similar to aatrox and the darkin. I thought ashe sejuani and lissandra were 3 sisters each with their own tribe/faction who got in war with eachother 'till lissandra got obsessed and thought it's time for runeterra to freeze. I was waiting for trundle to rule his troll kingdom and join the asskickery to put an end to the catfight. I thought they all were in some sort of hundred years vendetta or something with the frostguard guys over who's the rightfull leader of the biggest amount of ice(freljord ice, not true ice). The funniest part is Lissandra is one of my mains and one of my best champions, not to mention I have dedicated runes and masteries just for her and both her skins.

MRW:

ItemsGuyMay 7, 20151 votes

The thing with mana regeneration passive/active effects is, they need to be somehow integrated into a kit where either A) the mana regeneration is triggered by a specific action meant to balance out a champion's standard play patterns (Xerath has to get into AA range of something every once in a while to prevent him from just sitting far away from any relative threat and throwing spells at people all day), or B) the champion's own abilities are very mana intensive and the mana regeneration is an integral part of their primary play patterns or decision-making process (ex. if a champion's abilities grew more powerful and more expensive with each successive cast, but that power is replaced with mana regeneration after a period of not casting, or if a champion had generally expensive abilities but successful use of some or all of those abilities resulted in mana regeneration, which is generally how Energy works).

Free spells and mana regeneration can be a few shades of boring when it's just kinda slapped onto a kit. I wouldn't play Lissandra or Nunu any differently if their mana costs were reduced and their Innate passives were removed--Lissandra's CC mage patterns mean she's always going to want to hit with her CC abilities (ie. all but the claw, which still seems like an odd choice on her kit for me from beyond a purely mechanical standpoint), and Nunu's always going to want to slap jungle monsters.

Hopefully you guys come up with something that is more in line with Lissandra's core identity as a character and champion, and more interesting than "Lissandra can stay in lane longer if she doesn't spam her abilities, but, like, even longer than OTHER mana-using champions that don't spam their abilities".

JingerbeardmanMay 7, 20151 votes

Honestly mana tied passives (unless they grant some sort of power boost) really are lack luster. Many of them become useless as the game progresses and it is kind of a shame that they do. I really wish she interacted more with Crowd controlled targets considering she is kind of themed around CC. Perhaps dealing bonus damage with her attacks against CC'd targets or something at least. If you need to remove some power from her kit in order to do something like that reduce the damage on glacial path. The skill is meant for positioning and mobility. The fact it is a 1/4 of her potential damage makes no sense to me. Sure if you use it to initiate it can be pretty good... But i would rather see that damage get put into her other abilities or into a more interactive passive.

WarlockLawMay 7, 20151 votes

I feel that mana tied passives end up lack luster because it does not result in a champion that has strictly less mana problems than those without them in a similar role. Lissandra and veigar both have bigger mana issues than some other mages like ahri or brand based off my experience with them. It's like riot goes out of their way to make it so anyone with mana can go oom

VoidacMay 7, 20151 votes

I see. Well, it'll be interesting to see if you guys decide to make any changes to her passive. I was cautiously excited when you first mentioned you were looking at possible changes for her passive.

patmax17May 7, 20151 votes

Maybe something between the two passives, i.e. she regains mana when she CCs an opponent (instead of every few seconds)?

BlackquillMay 8, 20151 votes

A shield based on CCd champions would be a bit too strong on her since she excels at CCing a lot of champs at the same time and for a long time.

What about a small mana boots if she manages to perfectly clear a minion wave? So that she gets back a small amount of Mana per killed unit. (not going to name a number since this is subject to balance)

JabalorMay 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

'Lissandra has different interactions with mana costs and casting' aspect can be accentuated more.

How about, %mana refund by each target it hits/slows/cc?

AbodyHUN666May 8, 20151 votes

What do you think about a passive which lets her go without mana regen if she is able to proc it? Would it be too good for bullying top lane?

AcastiusMay 9, 20151 votes

Hey Meddler, not sure if you'll stop by and read this again, but I figured I'd toss some ideas your way.

Background thoughts So, I've been trying to think about this a little, and I thought it'd be interesting to compare her passive to the passives of the other two "sisters." (Using the new Ashe rework.)

Ashe's passive: On every hit, she slows. And she crits every target that is slowed.

Sejuani: On every hit, she gains armor and 'tenacity.' Refreshes each hit. (With permaforst's passive every hit/ability also slows.)

Okay, so their passives are extremely similar - they slow on every hit, and then their core identity is accentuated. (More AD damage for Ashe, and more tankiness for Sejuani.)

So then the discussion become what's Lissandra's core identity. Each of the Freljord sisters have lockdown as the emphasis. So if Ashe is the CC Markswoman, and Sejuani the CC tank/jungler, it's fairly clear that Lissandra is the CC mage. But it's not the CC that is their core. The CC lets Ashe attack more, Sejuani tank longer/more effectively. Mages use their abilities, so Lissandra's passive tries to emphasize that by letting her get to use "more" abilities. (Because occasionally they're free.)

The problem with Lissandra's passive is it works similar to Ashe's old passive. It rewards non-active gameplay by being internally gated with a timer. It tries to make up for this by reducing the cooldown when you do what she's supposed to be doing, but it's still gated.

So, after that explanation of what I've been thinking, let me get to my suggestion

Passive: Iceborn Lissandra's basic attacks and abilities apply a slow. (A very minor slow added to the autoattack, and glacial path)

Basic attacks and abilities hitting a slowed target or killing a unit grant Lissandra a stack of 'Forbidden Knowledge'. (Triple for champions, large minions and large monsters.) Once she reaches 16(?) stacks of forbidden knowledge, Lissandra's next ability cast (that hits a champion?) is free and 16(?) stacks are consumed.

(Lissandra can have a maximum of 50? stacks?)

Why I thought this seemed like a good idea

First, I want to say that the number of stacks needed might be way too low. I think that's a balance issue that should be tested. My thought was that a perfect Ring of Frost or Frozen tomb in a team fight would allow her next spell cast to be free, right away.

When it comes to the maximum number of stacks, I was thinking it'd be cool if she stored power by destroying minions/auto attacking and then released it once she was attacking champions. It comes from the idea in lore that Lissandra is a force that is biding her time but needs to be dealt with, and if you leave her alone she'll become unstoppable. This would encourage "all in" play styles more than poking, as poking champions would consume stacks you'd be building up.

I wasn't sure how much power this gave her though. If she had more space in her power budget I was toying with the idea that once she reached max stacks she would consume half her stacks to greatly reduce the cooldown on her next spell cast. (Or perhaps give it a "Syndra" type bonus effect.)

JaekelJun 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No current plans/nothing in progress right now. Did some experimentation a while back with a shield passive based off CCing enemies, wasn't able to hit on a version that generated sufficient decisions and satisfaction without putting a lot more power into it than could be afforded without nerfing her significantly elsewhere though. Might take another crack at passive explorations at some point, would be inclined to explore other variants on mana or mana regen effects next. See whether pushing the 'Lissandra has different interactions with mana costs and casting' aspect can be accentuated more.

I think it was fine to hold off. No need to rush. I do however have a few ideas (as do all Lissandra lovers), though some iterations may have already been conceived of and subsequently discarded by Riot's developers. In that case please forgive my impudence.

Ideas:

Durability is what I think Lissandra needs, over raw damage and mana. She would make a fine tanky bruiser of a mage if she weren't so fragile.

I am a huge fan of the Defensive Mastery Oppression.  I think a shield that activates on crowd control (akin to Mordakaiser) would be a bit excessive without a static cooldown built in.  However I think this could work:

Passive: Kneel: Every time Lissandra impairs an enemy's movement, damage dealt to her is reduced by .75% (at level 1)/1.5% (at level 6)/3% (at level 12) for 5 seconds. This stacks up to 2 (at level 1)/3 (at level 6)/4 (at Level 12) times. This stacks additively with Defense Mastery Oppression.

A bit extreme.  Helps her durability for a short period of time, and complements her short range.

Passive: Seeker's Resolve: Being damaged by an enemy champion with impaired movement from an ability grants Lissandra 3 + (Level x 1 [at level 1]/1.25 [at level 6]/1.5 [at level 12]) Armor and Magic Resist for 6 seconds. 18 second static cooldown. The cooldown is reduced by 1 second whenever Lissandra is damaged by an enemy with impaired movement from an ability.

Possible shield ideas.

A weak shield that can be refreshed quickly, but Lissandra burns through mana even quicker.

Passive: Watchers' Due: Casting an ability increases Lissandra's next ability's mana cost by 10 + (Level x 2). When Lissandra casts her next ability she gains a 10 + (Level x 2) (+5% AP) health shield for 5 seconds. No cooldown. Does not stack.

Who wants to hit her first?  More of a rattlesnake ability than an effective shield.  Powerful stun, but the stacks can be poked off to keep that from ever happening.

Passive: Coldsnap: Lissandra gains a 5 + (level x 0 [at level 1]/1 [at level 6]/1.25 [at level 11]/1.5 [at level 16]) health shield. Lissandra gains a stack of Coldsnap for every second she does not take damage from an enemy unit (Max 5). When Lissandra is damaged by an enemy champion within 550-range while having 5 stacks of Coldsnap, that champion is stunned for .25/.75/1.25 seconds and all Coldsnap stacks are consumed. 25 second static cooldown.

While I am not a fan of mana passives, I do think it necessary to keep in line with Lissandra's concept of a mana efficient caster.

Passive: Witchcraft: Damaging an enemy unit with impaired movement from an ability grants +50% Base Mana Regeneration for 5 seconds. Killing an enemy unit with impaired movement from an ability grants an addition +50% Base Mana Regeneration for 5 seconds.

A risky option. Grants a large mana pool, but could disappear quickly.

Passive: Lissandra gains Level + (+100% (at level 1)/+150% (at level 4)/+200% (at level 8)/+250% (at level 12) AP) Mana. The next damage dealt by an enemy champion is deducted from Lissandra's mana instead. 15 second static cooldown.

Helping her mana sustain in lane, and getting possibly getting back mana late game.

Passive: Hunt of the Ice Witch: Damaging an enemy unit with an ability or basic attack marks that enemy for 4 seconds. Damaging the marked enemy with an ability or basic attack consumes the mark and restores 5 (at level 1)/7 (at level 3)/14 (at level 6)/28 (at level 9)/52 (at level 12)/104 (at level 15) Mana per marked enemy. If the passive would restore more than Lissandra's maximum mana, the mark is consumed and no mana is restored. Marked enemy champions have their Movement Speed reduced by 10% when moving away from Lissandra (range 800).

Trying a different way to make her more durable.  Helping her early and late game, but this on is just as passive a passive as her current passive.

Passive: They will bow: Every minute Lissandra gains a stack of They Will Bow, gaining +6% Base Mana Regeneration and +3% Base Health Regeneration.

Reworking current passive to make it feel a little more rewarding while requiring a little more work.

Passive: Iceborn: Lissandra's basic attacks grant her a stack of Iceborn (Max 5). At 5 stacks, when Lissandra's casts an ability her next abilities cost no mana for 3/4/5 seconds and all Iceborn stacks are consumed. 13 second static cooldown.

Lissandra's damage is primarily achieved through her ice shards.  Giving her a free Shard every so often that could be immediately followed by the actual Q would help her scale well into the late game and would help her mana sustain in lane.

Passive: Impale: Lissandra's basic attacks grant her a stack of Impale. At 8/7/6 stacks, Lissandra gains 175 bonus attack range (725 total range, 100 splash range), and her next basic attack is modified to deal magic damage equal to 70/100/130/160/190 (+65% AP) and slow its target by 16%/19%/22%/25%/28% for 1.5 seconds (25% damage against structures). The basic attack will then pass through the target, dealing the same damage to other enemies hit. Notes: For the purposes of Runaan's Hurricane, attacking with Impale counts as a single auto-attack against a single targeted enemy, and as such will only launch a pair of ordinary single target bolts to nearby enemies. However, the range bonus applies to all three bolts.

Flavorful, cute, and fluffy stuff that should probably never see the light of Arclight Vel'Koz ever again...

Trying to tie into her concept of a "nimble" mage.

Passive: Bitter Cold: Lissandra steals nearby enemy champions Tenacity by 50% (range 550). Passive: Lissandra steals nearby enemy units movement speed by up to 10%. Minimum 5% at max range (range 550).

"Nimble" in a different way.  Faster spellcasting.

Passive: Avalanche: Lissandra's abilities at max rank gain +30% Cooldown Reduction. Passive: Lissandra may have up to +50% maximum Cooldown Reduction.

Early concept, thought that Nautilus' passive was more appropriate for Lissandra. Perhaps too powerful for a ranged auto attacker though.

Passive: Ice Spears: Lissandra's basic attacks grant her a stack of Ice Spears. At 12 stacks, Lissandra's next basic attack will deal bonus 4 + (Level x 2) True Damage and root her target for .25/.5/.75 seconds. This effect cannot trigger on the same targets more than once every few seconds.

Er... that was a mouthful.

Well, come-what-may, I will continue to love my dear little Ice Witch no matter what passive she has. The world will be buried in ice anyway.

CubedJusticeMay 5, 20151 votes

I don't remember anything about a new passive. Do you have a link to that?

MrBuffingtonMay 5, 20152 votes

I don't have a link but, if you're willing to trust my memory, a Red did mention they wanted something more interesting for Lissandra, and was experimenting with some shield passives, but ultimately because none of them really fit (and they needed to re-evaluate since she became a meta pick), they scrapped those ideas. I'm not sure if they're still working on one; I suspect if they are, it's a bit on hold because other changes are more pressing (getting other champions into a good spot, since Lissandra is doing fine right now/recently).

CubedJusticeMay 5, 20151 votes

Huh. Sounds interesting.

MLDzXnRRRJun 11, 20151 votes

Lissandra is basically manaless champion, if you are not using your abilities to farm, just to destroy the enemies. While her Q is not good vs Xerath or Ziggs, she destroys almost everyone else with her free spells.

VoidacJun 11, 20151 votes

Hardly. It has an 18 second cooldown. So if she plans on being offensive with just auto attacks and a Q every 18 seconds, she's going to get destroyed. She has the worst mana regen in the game, and her passive requires you to use more spells to make it usefull. I play Lissandra a lot. Her passive can be managed, but it's only there to compensate for her severe lack of mana regen.

MLDzXnRRRJun 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hardly. It has an 18 second cooldown. So if she plans on being offensive with just auto attacks and a Q every 18 seconds, she's going to get destroyed. She has the worst mana regen in the game, and her passive requires you to use more spells to make it usefull. I play Lissandra a lot. Her passive can be managed, but it's only there to compensate for her severe lack of mana regen.

With equal ability spam, Ori goes oom faster, I don't know why do you think that Liss has more mana problems than other mages who don't have a free spell, but slightly higher mana regen.

VoidacJun 11, 20151 votes

You've obviously never played Lissandra.

RogonocDec 14, 20151 votes

Just a showerthought.

Iceborn

Lissandra's next ability applies Frostburn to enemies.

Frostburn: Deal X magic damage over Y seconds and restore Mana equal to damage done (Z% for minions)

or:

Frostburn: Deal X magic damage over Y seconds and gain a shield equal to damage done for Y seconds (Z% for minions)

Iceborn's cooldown is reduced by 1 second every time Lissandra applies crowd control to an enemy with her abilities, excluding crowd control spell effects from items.

VoidacDec 15, 20151 votes

Certainly never gonna happen since they just finished nerfing every champ with damage over time. If they did this, they'd have to nerf Liss even more.