Why are we retconning Lissandra and the Frozen Watchers?

Voidac·8/20/2018, 5:09:07 PM·44 votes·13,477 views

Her lore was technically updated (or rather, the new way of writing lore started with her (when we started ignoring the IoW)). Why are we changing her whole story? She used to be this cunning "plans within plans" kind of person, but now she's all over the place. She's completely flipped on her stance with the Watchers (who are barely the same thing anymore). Lissandra's promo video, her long quote on the howling abyss and such are all pointless and meaningless now.

Why? The lore was already so intricate! It really painted a picture of what Lissandra was about, showing how many irons she had in the fire and such. The new Lissandra is so painfully unappealing. Are we going to redo her voice lines to match her lore?

39 Comments

Camille Ferrøs8/20/2018, 5:15:21 PM14 votes

Honestly I'm extremely sad.. LIssandra and the Frozen Watchers and literally what got me into the lore and made me stick to this game for almost 5 full years and now..EH Lissandra Frozen Watchers WHO THAT... WE KNOW ONLY VOID..

AbiwonKenabi8/20/2018, 5:41:15 PM10 votes

I have mixed feelings on changing the Watchers to be specifically Void-related: on one hand, I hate that every threat to Runeterra seems to ultimately stem from the Void, the Watchers were a nice break from this and they could be a different type of threat with similar catastrophic results. But on the other hand, that new short story ("Lissandra's" story, although she doesn't appear in it at all...) did an excellent job of making the Void seem creepy and a threat. It was a great read. Gave us some great creepy Void bits and told us a lot about how the Frostguard are viewed/work.

That change aside though, Lissandra herself is, as you said, so dumb. Her lore was one of the most solid things about her and much of her appeal came from being a Disney-esque super villain: crafty, level-headed and manipulative. So now she's...against the Watchers? Or she froze them to use them later at the opportune moment? And also, the Frostguard worship her and her sisters like deities? NOT the Watchers? Not only are the motivations unclear, but the bio is just flat out confusing. It starts out with all this ethereal crap on "how the world used to be" and Lissandra and her sisters were blind, deaf and mute respectively.

And then the climax, one of the coolest moments we have in League lore, is again, confusing. The War with the Watchers, and I can't tell but it almost seems like Liss sided with her sisters. She's supposed to be the Watchers' number one Iceborn fan! Its supposed to be the Civil War to end all Wars, and now history is trying to repeat itself with the brewing Civil War between Ashe, Sejuani and eventually Lissandra. Not only are we cheated of this, but they also cheated Avarosa of her importance as well, effectively cheating Ashe's story indirectly. Or did they? Maybe I need to read it again...

Lissandra's Howling Abyss speech and anything the Iceborn shopkeeper says on the matter is totally wrong now...which is ludicrous because those were top quality lore bits. I love Howling Abyss for things like that. Reading this awesome story that came with Lissandra's bio made me want to go play an ARAM and experience the setting a little with Sigvar. It was really good. It just sucks that the most important part of this, Lissandra, feels more confusing and less fleshed out than ever.

Overall, I feel lukewarm to unhappy about the changes. It felt like Lissandra's new bio needed, at the very least, one more read over to be less confusing. There was no confusion with old Lissandra: she gave the Freljord its most important legend with the three sisters, and as a result improved the Freljord and all of its Champions. Now her stuff does the opposite. And I'm just waiting for a Rioter to come and say either 1) "History has been manipulated and we aren't getting the full story!" or 2) "This is only the beginning of Lissandra's development as a character!" They aren't excuses I totally disagree with, but since lore moves at glacial pace, this bio is basically Lissandra's character for the foreseeable future.

XIII Vanitas8/20/2018, 11:57:26 PM9 votes

Why, you ask? Because Riot wasn't able to come up with an interesting story for the Ice Witch and her Frozen Overlords who wanted to bury the world in ice, so they threw everything in the trash. It's already happened so many times that I'm not even surprised. This has become the routine. Give it some time and they'll retcon Targon too.

The Iceborn8/20/2018, 5:21:01 PM8 votes

Its ALL MEANINGLESS NOW! Why did they break my heart??

mrmeddyman8/20/2018, 6:35:26 PM4 votes

The Frozen Watchers came about with Lissandra as a bit of flavor when Riot didn't really care about the lore, just a little blurb to make the character in their game a bit more interesting and give her a unique motivation. Such is the ways of the dark days of League, when there was no care put into the lore. Then one day they woke up and saw they potential of storytelling in League. They made the Void the main threat to the world and had already made the assertion hat the Watchers are he masters of the Void. But Lissandra is just Lissandra. The Watchers outgrew her so to speak. This was always going to happen eventually.

(But OP I totally agree about the VO updates. It's getting ridiculous that they expect us to take these updates seriously and not have any changes reflected in game. BEYOND RIDICULOUS)

GenoXx8/21/2018, 9:35:07 AM3 votes

Now people see what I'm talking about.

Automated Riven8/20/2018, 10:14:38 PM3 votes

Sup.

(A riven main who made a post similar to this and got ignore)

Have an upvote tho. Maybe you guys get locky

Iron Rubric8/21/2018, 1:07:24 PM2 votes

League is starting to become warhammer 40k lore wise, the void is basically the warp now

Bring on the tyranids papa rito!

ForgottenLuck8/21/2018, 2:53:37 AM2 votes

I actually like this form of Lissandra a lot more, since before I found her just to be a copy-cat of Malz, now she is more unique and more intresting of a character, yet I do wish we had more lore on her

Jerry SeinfeId8/20/2018, 6:44:00 PM2 votes

the lore is gonna come down to Void vs targon anyway. better look at the smaller scale stories.

Phhase8/22/2018, 1:31:38 AM2 votes

The Watchers have been the Void-lords ever since the Icathia update. I'm surprised that anyone else is surprised. Why would the Freljord "Frozen Watchers" be any different than the "normal" Watchers, other than being, you know, frozen?

Żügżwäng8/22/2018, 1:33:49 AM1 votes

The writers have shown their inability to carefully update stories. Rather than augmenting them with clever new ideas, and making slight changes to tie the world together, the scorched earth approach is much easier.

Shinjrou8/20/2018, 6:27:40 PM1 votes

Well, I like that they acknowledged the existence of Lissandra, but I don't know how to feel about this. I usually take these kind of things with positivity, but it could have been better eh. item 3110 Lissandra

TeCoolMage8/21/2018, 9:20:23 AM1 votes

Maybe she's a triple (quadrouple?) crosser and making dark ice look sacred, and making the frostguard look like heroes so she can personally rule the world.

First you get rid of the watchers and corrupt the religion to work around fighting the watchers, while villanizing Ashe and Sejuani as well as making dark ice look like a good thing

Then you start taking children slowly from other tribes, and making them weaker

Eventually freljord becomes the frostguard nation, Lissandra launches a full scale attack on the rest of the world as well as finding and containing all forms of true ice to keep the watchers at bay, and she can threaten to end the world as well if she ever gets challenged as her role as supreme ruler.

Little does she know... Aurelion Sol (who has since escaped his slavery through the help of xerath who felt bad for him) gets convinced by a female love interest (no not zoe you sicko), an unreleased female god champion, to seal the howling abyss void fissure as he's been shown to be able to do.

But then he gets interrupted and one shot by wukong from stealth because he's a no skill champ and has BS invisibility riot pls nerf him and make me head of balance department wtf am I supposed to do with these BS op champions waltzing into mid lane\

oh and zoe delet liss who gets reported for feeding

Zapzya8/21/2018, 10:48:29 AM1 votes

Now I would like to preface this by saying I am not the best at identifying subtle plot points or reading between the lines, but this is my take on it. Her old lore was minimal and can be summarized into three parts.

  1. Lissandra sells out for power and sacrifices her tribe for personal gain. From this we can see she is selfish and power hungry.
  2. The Watchers are defeated and she remains faithful. From this we can see she is a little fanatical.
  3. Lissandra enacts her plan to brainwash the Frostguard by replacing their leader each generation. From this we can see she is cunning and patient.

I'm not saying this is bad, it definitely paints a strong picture, however it isn't what I would call intricate. Also, telling me that she has plans within plans doesn't really convince me that they exist. He plan was honestly pretty straightforward: make people forget the Watchers so they are unprepared, then get a cult together to carry out the Watchers' will. Her character definitely seems capable, but due to the minimalist nature of this, plans within plans doesn't feel completely real to me.

New Lissandra lore is not exactly clear, and I think the Bio needs a touch up to make some things more explicit. She still sells out for power in the beginning, however now that the watchers are from the Void, the consequences of this are much higher, and so she betrays them. She then attempts to keep them sealed for centuries, quelling stories of them and eliminating reincarnations of her sisters. Realistically, the only aspect that was removed is the fanaticism. As many have pointed out, Malzahar already embodies that, so this does help distinguish between their characters.

The part that I think the weakest is, as with the old lore, her cunning is communicated to us by telling, not showing. I have only skimmed her new short story, however from what I saw there was no sign of these plans either. If we had some form of short story displaying her patience and intelligence, it would feel much more real. Once again, she is probably capable of a master plan of some form, it just isn't communicated.

Is the new bio worse than the old one? In my opinion yes, it drags Lissandra in so many different directions (serves the Watchers, betrays the Watchers, loves her sisters, betrays her sisters) she comes off as unsure of herself. It really doesn't help that it ends on her desperation at keeping secrets buried, as this tells us she is barely holding things together and makes her seem mildly incompetent. But is the new lore worse than the old lore?

Well, another post by WAAARGHbobo leads me to believe this isn't at all what they were trying to communicate. I feel they're trying to fit several short bio's into a single short bio. First Lissandra's origin during primal Runeterra, her discovery of the void and its implications, her emotional conflict with her sisters leading to her betrayal, and her cultivation of the Frostguard whilst manipulating and obscuring knowledge. Trying to do so much at once in such a short format just didn't work out and nothing is as particularly striking as her old bio.

So no, I don't think that her new lore is worse across the board. I believe there is a lot of potential, it is simply being hindered by trying to present far too much in too few words. I hope that they touch up the bio, cut out the unnecessary stuff and find another way to convey these things, because it really does not work in its current state.

On a side note, Vel'koz's new lore is very nice, and from what I have read of The Eye in the Abyss, Anthony Reynolds continues to write some fantastic stories. Nothing tops The Principles of Strength so far though (in my opinion), and I recommend reading if you really want a "plans within plans" style character/ story, as Swain is the first character who comes to mind when I think of that, mainly because of this story.

SSmotzer8/21/2018, 11:28:43 AM1 votes

Wait, there was a retcon in the new lore? Where? Lissandra has always been corrupted by frozen void corruption, and she has always been planning to betray the Watchers. Or am I missing something?

Don Lupus8/21/2018, 7:56:32 PM1 votes

Recent lore changes were all terrible. A lot of characters lost their personality alnost completely. In Lissandras case it's esprcially sad since her initial story was soooo good. But bowadays EVERYTHING has to be about Darkins/the Void. And they reshape characters in the worst way possible just for the sake of it

BlackOnyxAltear8/21/2018, 8:46:29 PM1 votes

rito lore team: retcons within retcons

SEKAI8/21/2018, 8:58:21 PM1 votes

Riot is suffering from "Blizzard writing" syndrome.

The obsession with ""grey"" writing which just ends up with mostly everyone being different shades of black; constant retconing of established lore, theme, and characters (unless it's the case where the characters kinda go nowhere and the re-write actually enrich while capturing their original essence, in that case I give it a pass); and the tendency of tying everything into like 1 or 2 "big bad" and so things kinda just feels a bit cheap in the end (the Void is basically League's equivalent of the very tired "corruption" plot device from WoW).

AYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Psyrix8/21/2018, 9:10:25 PM1 votes

For me Lissandra’s old lore is still relevant but more along the lines of what the Watchers think she’s doing. The new lore...: does feel kinda weird.... why is she killing the reincarnations of her sister’s if it seems like she’ll need them? I think that point should’ve been clarified more.

Whyte Lyon8/22/2018, 12:06:20 AM1 votes

This entire thread is vapid as all hell.

Oleandervine8/22/2018, 12:13:46 AM1 votes

This new lore ruins her as a character. They took a strong, powerful witch, so resolute and devoted to her evil overlords that she literally plotted and planned and scrubbed history for millennia to make way for their comeback.

Now she's a gutless coward who betrayed everyone, including the Watchers, murders her great ^1000 grand nieces for shits and giggles, and tries her damndest to keep the Watchers trapped.

She went from an indomitably powerful foe to a wretched terrified child. It's horrible.