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Why are we retconning Lissandra and the Frozen Watchers?

Voidac··44 votes·13,477 views

Her lore was technically updated (or rather, the new way of writing lore started with her (when we started ignoring the IoW)). Why are we changing her whole story? She used to be this cunning "plans within plans" kind of person, but now she's all over the place. She's completely flipped on her stance with the Watchers (who are barely the same thing anymore). Lissandra's promo video, her long quote on the howling abyss and such are all pointless and meaningless now.

Why? The lore was already so intricate! It really painted a picture of what Lissandra was about, showing how many irons she had in the fire and such. The new Lissandra is so painfully unappealing. Are we going to redo her voice lines to match her lore?

39 Comments

Camille Ferrøs14 votes

Honestly I'm extremely sad.. LIssandra and the Frozen Watchers and literally what got me into the lore and made me stick to this game for almost 5 full years and now..EH Lissandra Frozen Watchers WHO THAT... WE KNOW ONLY VOID..

HonestJohnTheCon12 votes

Well, about the Frozen Watchers, they are still frozen Watchers. From the Void, granted, but they still serve the same purpose.

With Lissandra though I can't argue there. She got retconned pretty hard.

Camille Ferrøs4 votes

{quoted}

Well, about the Frozen Watchers, they are still frozen Watchers. From the Void, granted, but they still serve the same purpose.

With Lissandra though I can't argue there. She got retconned pretty hard.

in a way yes but I What I mean by that Frozen Watchers are the creatures with legs and 13-948390 arms that didn't look Void like. Now they are just eyes probably and some Lissandra cosplay froze them ¿ what lol. And IF they make that Targon made the Iceborn I would consider leaving this lore....

HonestJohnTheCon1 votes

LOL I don't think they'd go that hard on Targon. They're only going so hard on the Void because the Void is the Big Bad of the setting, which sadly means that other (more interesting) villains like Mordekaiser are cast aside.

Camille Ferrøs2 votes

{quoted}

LOL I don't think they'd go that hard on Targon. They're only going so hard on the Void because the Void is the Big Bad of the setting, which sadly means that other (more interesting) villains like Mordekaiser are cast aside.

But how do you explain the iceborn armies and Lissandra's Icy powers...I mean I wont be surprised if they do that honestly from now on I expect everything...

IllusionLord3331 votes

{quoted}

LOL I don't think they'd go that hard on Targon. They're only going so hard on the Void because the Void is the Big Bad of the setting, which sadly means that other (more interesting) villains like Mordekaiser are cast aside.

The Void is the superior organism, and all will fall before it!

In all seriousness I kind of agree. The Void is my favorite faction in the game, but I would like to see some other villains get to be as big of a threat as the Void currently is. By the way if a Shadow Isles lore update is soon, the Isles may very well be a challenge for even the Void...

Rouwhorst3 votes

What, no ofcourse not! the shadow Isles get completely retconned and explained trough the void. Something, something... "yeah giant explosion"... and then there was shadow isles but magic transformed the voidborn into undead...?

3TWarrior1 votes

and then you realize, this is probably exactly what they are going to do

if anything, we would finally get a real mordekaiser fix out of it, but they'd probably want to rework yorick or THRESH instead, lol

I liked the story/lore update with twisted fate, graves, gangplank and miss fortune, but they still ruined gangplank at the same time and made one of his skins free at the time but not later

I loved the jolly roger and now we've got GGP gangplank, generic ghost pirate

AbiwonKenabi10 votes

I have mixed feelings on changing the Watchers to be specifically Void-related: on one hand, I hate that every threat to Runeterra seems to ultimately stem from the Void, the Watchers were a nice break from this and they could be a different type of threat with similar catastrophic results. But on the other hand, that new short story ("Lissandra's" story, although she doesn't appear in it at all...) did an excellent job of making the Void seem creepy and a threat. It was a great read. Gave us some great creepy Void bits and told us a lot about how the Frostguard are viewed/work.

That change aside though, Lissandra herself is, as you said, so dumb. Her lore was one of the most solid things about her and much of her appeal came from being a Disney-esque super villain: crafty, level-headed and manipulative. So now she's...against the Watchers? Or she froze them to use them later at the opportune moment? And also, the Frostguard worship her and her sisters like deities? NOT the Watchers? Not only are the motivations unclear, but the bio is just flat out confusing. It starts out with all this ethereal crap on "how the world used to be" and Lissandra and her sisters were blind, deaf and mute respectively.

And then the climax, one of the coolest moments we have in League lore, is again, confusing. The War with the Watchers, and I can't tell but it almost seems like Liss sided with her sisters. She's supposed to be the Watchers' number one Iceborn fan! Its supposed to be the Civil War to end all Wars, and now history is trying to repeat itself with the brewing Civil War between Ashe, Sejuani and eventually Lissandra. Not only are we cheated of this, but they also cheated Avarosa of her importance as well, effectively cheating Ashe's story indirectly. Or did they? Maybe I need to read it again...

Lissandra's Howling Abyss speech and anything the Iceborn shopkeeper says on the matter is totally wrong now...which is ludicrous because those were top quality lore bits. I love Howling Abyss for things like that. Reading this awesome story that came with Lissandra's bio made me want to go play an ARAM and experience the setting a little with Sigvar. It was really good. It just sucks that the most important part of this, Lissandra, feels more confusing and less fleshed out than ever.

Overall, I feel lukewarm to unhappy about the changes. It felt like Lissandra's new bio needed, at the very least, one more read over to be less confusing. There was no confusion with old Lissandra: she gave the Freljord its most important legend with the three sisters, and as a result improved the Freljord and all of its Champions. Now her stuff does the opposite. And I'm just waiting for a Rioter to come and say either 1) "History has been manipulated and we aren't getting the full story!" or 2) "This is only the beginning of Lissandra's development as a character!" They aren't excuses I totally disagree with, but since lore moves at glacial pace, this bio is basically Lissandra's character for the foreseeable future.

Camille Ferrøs3 votes

{quoted}

I have mixed feelings on changing the Watchers to be specifically Void-related: on one hand, I hate that every threat to Runeterra seems to ultimately stem from the Void, the Watchers were a nice break from this and they could be a different type of threat with similar catastrophic results. But on the other hand, that new short story ("Lissandra's" story, although she doesn't appear in it at all...) did an excellent job of making the Void seem creepy and a threat. It was a great read. Gave us some great creepy Void bits and told us a lot about how the Frostguard are viewed/work.

That change aside though, Lissandra herself is, as you said, so dumb. Her lore was one of the most solid things about her and much of her appeal came from being a Disney-esque super villain: crafty, level-headed and manipulative. So now she's...against the Watchers? Or she froze them to use them later at the opportune moment? And also, the Frostguard worship her and her sisters like deities? NOT the Watchers? Not only are the motivations unclear, but the bio is just flat out confusing. It starts out with all this ethereal crap on "how the world used to be" and Lissandra and her sisters were blind, deaf and mute respectively.

And then the climax, one of the coolest moments we have in League lore, is again, confusing. The War with the Watchers, and I can't tell but it almost seems like Liss sided with her sisters. She's supposed to be the Watchers' number one Iceborn fan! Its supposed to be the Civil War to end all Wars, and now history is trying to repeat itself with the brewing Civil War between Ashe, Sejuani and eventually Lissandra. Not only are we cheated of this, but they also cheated Avarosa of her importance as well, effectively cheating Ashe's story indirectly. Or did they? Maybe I need to read it again...

Lissandra's Howling Abyss speech and anything the Iceborn shopkeeper says on the matter is totally wrong now...which is ludicrous because those were top quality lore bits. I love Howling Abyss for things like that. Reading this awesome story that came with Lissandra's bio made me want to go play an ARAM and experience the setting a little with Sigvar. It was really good. It just sucks that the most important part of this, Lissandra, feels more confusing and less fleshed out than ever.

Overall, I feel lukewarm to unhappy about the changes. It felt like Lissandra's new bio needed, at the very least, one more read over to be less confusing. There was no confusion with old Lissandra: she gave the Freljord its most important legend with the three sisters, and as a result improved the Freljord and all of its Champions. Now her stuff does the opposite. And I'm just waiting for a Rioter to come and say either 1) "History has been manipulated and we aren't getting the full story!" or 2) "This is only the beginning of Lissandra's development as a character!" They aren't excuses I totally disagree with, but since lore moves at glacial pace, this bio is basically Lissandra's character for the foreseeable future.

I have never been more disappointed in my life..

Leetri3 votes

She used to be a Freljordian Malzahar (a doomsday prophet trying to summon void beings), now she's got her own thing going. Why would she actually serve the Watchers when they want to annihilate the universe? She just wants to rule the world, not destroy it. A rioter in another thread confirmed that she's pretending to still serve them because they don't know that she was the one to freeze them.

AbiwonKenabi5 votes

It's fine if they wanted to differentiate her from Malzahar, but making her this confusingly motivated anti-hero was not the way to do it. Why not get creative and GIVE her a reason to want to work with the Watchers? In her old bio, it was implied their life was pretty good under the Watchers, and Lissandra probably thought worshipping them was a small price to pay, which is where she differed from her sisters: maybe she was willing to give anything for that security, especially since they lived in the unforgiving Freljord.

I think making the Watchers from the Void is part of the problem. She was less like Malzahar before because the Watchers' goals were not straight up annihilation, they wanted to freeze the world. Maybe they were perfectionists and didn't want things to move from their proper spot. Maybe they legitimately thought this was best for the world. Maybe they were one of the few who knew about the Void threat and their solution was to bury the world in ice so the Void was effectively neutralized. Any of these are still villainous, but could easily explain Lissandra's reasoning for her wholehearted support of the Frozen Watchers. Lissandra is supposed to be kind of sinister, so it's ok if we completely disagree with her: we don't HAVE to sympathize with her.

We'll never know their motivations since Riot went in a different direction. I personally think what we enjoyed about Lissandra suffered for it, and it also affected a lot of other lore bits from the Freljord that were already great.

Zapzya2 votes

Honestly, I think they were trying to sell Lisandra as a morally bankrupt witch attempting to get power yet avoid servitude, with hints of possible regret when mentioning her sisters. They just executed it poorly and didn't really tell us who she is. Of course, I don't really know since the bio is so confusing.

Making the Watchers part of the Void ties them to the current powers they have created in Runeterra. The world is crowded with different themes and fantasies and the Watchers were just kind of there, not contributing much. The possible ways Riot could have taken them would make them very similar to one of the evil entities in their world, so they chose to make them some form of Eldritch power and make them from the void. If they weren't, they would pretty much be just an inferior void ripoff.

They could have made them something like pagan gods, but that's pretty close to the Darkin or demons like Tahm Kench. They could have made them like a court of shadows/ shades people make deals with, but that is getting close to things like Kalista in the Shadow Isles or like Swain's demon. In the end, they decided to go with the theme of an unknowable power, something we can't comprehend really. The name even promotes this: The Watchers. Am I being too fanciful to say this name even implies they lurk in the shadows, waiting, watching? These are all things they have been building the void up to be, and so rather than make a second entity with less impact on the world, they went with the Void.

I am getting mildy tired of the void being so prominent though, I would much rather see more diversity, eg, Piltover V Noxus, Gangplank retaking Bilgewater, Demacia hunts some mages, Ionia unifying/ civil war, Xerath V Azir, crusades on the Shadow Isles. The void is cool and all, but I really like all the other things too. Also, the amount of these also kind of points out why making the Watchers a new entity is a bad thing, they have a lot to get through already.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

I didn't really get the "Lissandra is a morally bankrupt witch" and I'm not saying its not there, I'm saying the bio was so confusing that I've seen multiple interpretations of it already.

I don't really mind that the Watchers were made to be Void-beings, but since other parts of Lissandra's story were unsatisfactory, I think it contributes to this feeling. The guy I responded to basically said "they are differentiating her from Malzahar" and I pointed out that they kind of put themselves in that position to begin with, because this was just not the case before. Their goal should have been "why is Lissandra siding with the Watchers" not "well shit, we can't think of a reason, I guess she's against them now!" Some people will disagree with that sentiment, but I think this contributes to the end result of Lissandra becoming this confused mess, theme-wise. Her motivations are completely unclear, and even her personality doesn't come through. This was not the case before, as her motivations were VERY clear: bring back the Watchers. The details of HOW she was doing that was always a mystery, but the motivation provided a clear foundation for who Lissandra was and what she wanted to do. Now her bio is just a mystery, and not like before where they didn't give much details on her plans. Like its a mystery what they are trying to convey.

I mean, heck, why wouldn't there be a couple of characters that support the Void for various reasons? Its a big, influential threat.

At least we still have her excellent VO, they probably won't change that for eternity.

Leetri3 votes

Honestly there's already an overabundance of global threats. You got the Void, the Darkin, the Shadow Isles, Aurelion Sol, the World Runes, just general war, and I probably totally forgot something. The Watchers never really existed outside Lissandra's lore so I can see why Riot decided to merge them with the Void.

XIII Vanitas9 votes

Why, you ask? Because Riot wasn't able to come up with an interesting story for the Ice Witch and her Frozen Overlords who wanted to bury the world in ice, so they threw everything in the trash. It's already happened so many times that I'm not even surprised. This has become the routine. Give it some time and they'll retcon Targon too.

The Iceborn8 votes

Its ALL MEANINGLESS NOW! Why did they break my heart??

mrmeddyman4 votes

The Frozen Watchers came about with Lissandra as a bit of flavor when Riot didn't really care about the lore, just a little blurb to make the character in their game a bit more interesting and give her a unique motivation. Such is the ways of the dark days of League, when there was no care put into the lore. Then one day they woke up and saw they potential of storytelling in League. They made the Void the main threat to the world and had already made the assertion hat the Watchers are he masters of the Void. But Lissandra is just Lissandra. The Watchers outgrew her so to speak. This was always going to happen eventually.

(But OP I totally agree about the VO updates. It's getting ridiculous that they expect us to take these updates seriously and not have any changes reflected in game. BEYOND RIDICULOUS)

Automated Riven3 votes

Sup.

(A riven main who made a post similar to this and got ignore)

Have an upvote tho. Maybe you guys get locky

GenoXx3 votes

Now people see what I'm talking about.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

the lore is gonna come down to Void vs targon anyway. better look at the smaller scale stories.

ForgottenLuck2 votes

I actually like this form of Lissandra a lot more, since before I found her just to be a copy-cat of Malz, now she is more unique and more intresting of a character, yet I do wish we had more lore on her

Iron Rubric2 votes

League is starting to become warhammer 40k lore wise, the void is basically the warp now

Bring on the tyranids papa rito!

Phhase2 votes

The Watchers have been the Void-lords ever since the Icathia update. I'm surprised that anyone else is surprised. Why would the Freljord "Frozen Watchers" be any different than the "normal" Watchers, other than being, you know, frozen?

Shinjrou1 votes

Well, I like that they acknowledged the existence of Lissandra, but I don't know how to feel about this. I usually take these kind of things with positivity, but it could have been better eh. item 3110 Lissandra

TeCoolMage1 votes

Maybe she's a triple (quadrouple?) crosser and making dark ice look sacred, and making the frostguard look like heroes so she can personally rule the world.

First you get rid of the watchers and corrupt the religion to work around fighting the watchers, while villanizing Ashe and Sejuani as well as making dark ice look like a good thing

Then you start taking children slowly from other tribes, and making them weaker

Eventually freljord becomes the frostguard nation, Lissandra launches a full scale attack on the rest of the world as well as finding and containing all forms of true ice to keep the watchers at bay, and she can threaten to end the world as well if she ever gets challenged as her role as supreme ruler.

Little does she know... Aurelion Sol (who has since escaped his slavery through the help of xerath who felt bad for him) gets convinced by a female love interest (no not zoe you sicko), an unreleased female god champion, to seal the howling abyss void fissure as he's been shown to be able to do.

But then he gets interrupted and one shot by wukong from stealth because he's a no skill champ and has BS invisibility riot pls nerf him and make me head of balance department wtf am I supposed to do with these BS op champions waltzing into mid lane\

oh and zoe delet liss who gets reported for feeding

Binding Eclipse1 votes

{quoted}

But then he gets interrupted and one shot by wukong from stealth because he's a no skill champ and has BS invisibility riot pls nerf him and make me head of balance department wtf am I supposed to do with these BS op champions waltzing into mid lane\

oh and zoe delet liss who gets reported for feeding

i'm choking, wasn't ready

[sg-janna]

Zapzya1 votes

Now I would like to preface this by saying I am not the best at identifying subtle plot points or reading between the lines, but this is my take on it. Her old lore was minimal and can be summarized into three parts.

  1. Lissandra sells out for power and sacrifices her tribe for personal gain. From this we can see she is selfish and power hungry.
  2. The Watchers are defeated and she remains faithful. From this we can see she is a little fanatical.
  3. Lissandra enacts her plan to brainwash the Frostguard by replacing their leader each generation. From this we can see she is cunning and patient.

I'm not saying this is bad, it definitely paints a strong picture, however it isn't what I would call intricate. Also, telling me that she has plans within plans doesn't really convince me that they exist. He plan was honestly pretty straightforward: make people forget the Watchers so they are unprepared, then get a cult together to carry out the Watchers' will. Her character definitely seems capable, but due to the minimalist nature of this, plans within plans doesn't feel completely real to me.

New Lissandra lore is not exactly clear, and I think the Bio needs a touch up to make some things more explicit. She still sells out for power in the beginning, however now that the watchers are from the Void, the consequences of this are much higher, and so she betrays them. She then attempts to keep them sealed for centuries, quelling stories of them and eliminating reincarnations of her sisters. Realistically, the only aspect that was removed is the fanaticism. As many have pointed out, Malzahar already embodies that, so this does help distinguish between their characters.

The part that I think the weakest is, as with the old lore, her cunning is communicated to us by telling, not showing. I have only skimmed her new short story, however from what I saw there was no sign of these plans either. If we had some form of short story displaying her patience and intelligence, it would feel much more real. Once again, she is probably capable of a master plan of some form, it just isn't communicated.

Is the new bio worse than the old one? In my opinion yes, it drags Lissandra in so many different directions (serves the Watchers, betrays the Watchers, loves her sisters, betrays her sisters) she comes off as unsure of herself. It really doesn't help that it ends on her desperation at keeping secrets buried, as this tells us she is barely holding things together and makes her seem mildly incompetent. But is the new lore worse than the old lore?

Well, another post by WAAARGHbobo leads me to believe this isn't at all what they were trying to communicate. I feel they're trying to fit several short bio's into a single short bio. First Lissandra's origin during primal Runeterra, her discovery of the void and its implications, her emotional conflict with her sisters leading to her betrayal, and her cultivation of the Frostguard whilst manipulating and obscuring knowledge. Trying to do so much at once in such a short format just didn't work out and nothing is as particularly striking as her old bio.

So no, I don't think that her new lore is worse across the board. I believe there is a lot of potential, it is simply being hindered by trying to present far too much in too few words. I hope that they touch up the bio, cut out the unnecessary stuff and find another way to convey these things, because it really does not work in its current state.

On a side note, Vel'koz's new lore is very nice, and from what I have read of The Eye in the Abyss, Anthony Reynolds continues to write some fantastic stories. Nothing tops The Principles of Strength so far though (in my opinion), and I recommend reading if you really want a "plans within plans" style character/ story, as Swain is the first character who comes to mind when I think of that, mainly because of this story.

Wert the Wacky1 votes

{quoted}

Now I would like to preface this by saying I am not the best at identifying subtle plot points or reading between the lines, but this is my take on it. Her old lore was minimal and can be summarized into three parts.

  1. Lissandra sells out for power and sacrifices her tribe for personal gain. From this we can see she is selfish and power hungry.
  2. The Watchers are defeated and she remains faithful. From this we can see she is a little fanatical.
  3. Lissandra enacts her plan to brainwash the Frostguard by replacing their leader each generation. From this we can see she is cunning and patient.

I'm not saying this is bad, it definitely paints a strong picture, however it isn't what I would call intricate. Also, telling me that she has plans within plans doesn't really convince me that they exist. He plan was honestly pretty straightforward: make people forget the Watchers so they are unprepared, then get a cult together to carry out the Watchers' will. Her character definitely seems capable, but due to the minimalist nature of this, plans within plans doesn't feel completely real to me.

New Lissandra lore is not exactly clear, and I think the Bio needs a touch up to make some things more explicit. She still sells out for power in the beginning, however now that the watchers are from the Void, the consequences of this are much higher, and so she betrays them. She then attempts to keep them sealed for centuries, quelling stories of them and eliminating reincarnations of her sisters. Realistically, the only aspect that was removed is the fanaticism. As many have pointed out, Malzahar already embodies that, so this does help distinguish between their characters.

The part that I think the weakest is, as with the old lore, her cunning is communicated to us by telling, not showing. I have only skimmed her new short story, however from what I saw there was no sign of these plans either. If we had some form of short story displaying her patience and intelligence, it would feel much more real. Once again, she is probably capable of a master plan of some form, it just isn't communicated.

Is the new bio worse than the old one? In my opinion yes, it drags Lissandra in so many different directions (serves the Watchers, betrays the Watchers, loves her sisters, betrays her sisters) she comes off as unsure of herself. It really doesn't help that it ends on her desperation at keeping secrets buried, as this tells us she is barely holding things together and makes her seem mildly incompetent. But is the new lore worse than the old lore?

Well, another post by WAAARGHbobo leads me to believe this isn't at all what they were trying to communicate. I feel they're trying to fit several short bio's into a single short bio. First Lissandra's origin during primal Runeterra, her discovery of the void and its implications, her emotional conflict with her sisters leading to her betrayal, and her cultivation of the Frostguard whilst manipulating and obscuring knowledge. Trying to do so much at once in such a short format just didn't work out and nothing is as particularly striking as her old bio.

So no, I don't think that her new lore is worse across the board. I believe there is a lot of potential, it is simply being hindered by trying to present far too much in too few words. I hope that they touch up the bio, cut out the unnecessary stuff and find another way to convey these things, because it really does not work in its current state.

On a side note, Vel'koz's new lore is very nice, and from what I have read of The Eye in the Abyss, Anthony Reynolds continues to write some fantastic stories. Nothing tops The Principles of Strength so far though (in my opinion), and I recommend reading if you really want a "plans within plans" style character/ story, as Swain is the first character who comes to mind when I think of that, mainly because of this story.

Swain’s lore is just the best anyway imo

SSmotzer1 votes

Wait, there was a retcon in the new lore? Where? Lissandra has always been corrupted by frozen void corruption, and she has always been planning to betray the Watchers. Or am I missing something?

Don Lupus1 votes

Recent lore changes were all terrible. A lot of characters lost their personality alnost completely. In Lissandras case it's esprcially sad since her initial story was soooo good. But bowadays EVERYTHING has to be about Darkins/the Void. And they reshape characters in the worst way possible just for the sake of it

BlackOnyxAltear1 votes

rito lore team: retcons within retcons

SEKAI1 votes

Riot is suffering from "Blizzard writing" syndrome.

The obsession with ""grey"" writing which just ends up with mostly everyone being different shades of black; constant retconing of established lore, theme, and characters (unless it's the case where the characters kinda go nowhere and the re-write actually enrich while capturing their original essence, in that case I give it a pass); and the tendency of tying everything into like 1 or 2 "big bad" and so things kinda just feels a bit cheap in the end (the Void is basically League's equivalent of the very tired "corruption" plot device from WoW).

AYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Psyrix1 votes

For me Lissandra’s old lore is still relevant but more along the lines of what the Watchers think she’s doing. The new lore...: does feel kinda weird.... why is she killing the reincarnations of her sister’s if it seems like she’ll need them? I think that point should’ve been clarified more.

Whyte Lyon1 votes

This entire thread is vapid as all hell.

Oleandervine1 votes

This new lore ruins her as a character. They took a strong, powerful witch, so resolute and devoted to her evil overlords that she literally plotted and planned and scrubbed history for millennia to make way for their comeback.

Now she's a gutless coward who betrayed everyone, including the Watchers, murders her great ^1000 grand nieces for shits and giggles, and tries her damndest to keep the Watchers trapped.

She went from an indomitably powerful foe to a wretched terrified child. It's horrible.

Żügżwäng1 votes

The writers have shown their inability to carefully update stories. Rather than augmenting them with clever new ideas, and making slight changes to tie the world together, the scorched earth approach is much easier.

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