Karma's R and root are a joke compared to the peel and offensive buffs of Janna

PopcornBunni··5 votes·621 views

It's honstly kind of disgusting, not that Janna is allowed to be so strong since literally forever, but that she's allowed to do the job of other enchanters better while also having ridiculous peel

Karma max E value: 170 + 50% AP Other benefit: 60% Movespeed buff for 1.5s Janna max E value: 210 +70% AP Other benefit: 40 +10% AP BONUS AD for as long as the shield holds

Okay, so that's just the shield. Some champions should have better skills than others that do similar things, fair enough. Afterall, Karma has her ult shield as well!

About that.

Karma RE max rank bonus shield: 210 +60% AP (This is a shield, and thus falls off compared to an actual heal) Janna R max full heal: 600 +150% AP Holding her R for just one second grants more health, permanently, than Karma's.

Oh but Karma's ult is on such a low cooldown, so of course it's going to have a weaker effect. That's fine, except in a fight, you're getting exactly one Janna ult and one Karma ult off, so the effect is just having a minimal impact.

And then there's Janna's R also acting as a free peel when snapcast, as well as the other hard CC on both champions:

Karma Max rank W: after standing within harm's way waiting for the grass to grow for 1.5 seconds, the enemy is rooted for 2 seconds (an impressive 3.75 if you forgo her RE) Janna snapcast rank 1 Q: Instant AoE knockup for 0.5 seconds (Increased to 1.25 if enemies are dumb enough to be hit by it charged)

And their soft CC Karma Max rank Q: A skillshot that slows for 25%, increased to an AoE 50% slow with R, both for 1.5 seconds Janna Max rank W: 40% + 6% AP point and click slow that lasts 2 seconds

It's just absurd that Janna is allowed to be better than every other enchanter not just in her protective and healing spells, but also have the disengage power of some of the strongest Wardens in the game, on top of buffing the ADCs attack power by 60+.

If Janna is going to be allowed to be the way she is, revert the shield nerfs on Karma and give her slow a significant boost in potency. She's been sitting as a bottom tier support, midlaner, and recently toplaner, for far too long while nonsense like Janna are allowed to do everything she does better and then do more on top of that.

12 Comments

Illâoi Evê Siôn6 votes

You're comparing apples and apple-orange hybrid pies that are served as tiny free samples in a narrow aisle in Walmart, so every second you stand there, people have to awkwardly bypass you with their cart or walk around when they want something from the freezers behind the stand. And every time, the nice lady offering the samples will look at that person in case they might also a sample. But you can only try one yourself if you talk to the insistent lady and somehow know how to worm your way out of buying some if they turn out to be disgusting. Otherwise, you have to buy a bunch and yet still feel bad because you tried to worm your way out and failed.

Risen293 votes

And Jannas damage is a joke conpared to Karma - so whats your point?

jocomotion3 votes

I agree Karma needs changes, and compared to other supports she’s outclassed (especially Janna who’s been like top 5 for half a year) but I have to say you’re ignoring the damage argument a bit too much.

Dysnomia2 votes

I noticed something wrong with Karma after all the ability item changes. Hardly even playing her since then.

Ranmaru1 votes

I dont see the problem people have with janna okay? she has one peel ability if your playing kayn or something shes jannas worst nightmare

PopcornBunni5 votes

{quoted}

I dont see the problem people have with janna okay? she has one peel ability if your playing kayn or something shes jannas worst nightmare

Three peel abilities. Q, W, and R, all of which are instant.

ARE YOU PC BRO4 votes

{quoted}

I dont see the problem people have with janna okay? she has one peel ability if your playing kayn or something shes jannas worst nightmare

dude Janna is super OP and always has been, there's a reason she got that Victorious skin

Ixoziel1 votes

Because Karma's ulted Q can do disgusting amounts of damage. Also she can shield entire teams.

Janna has the benefit of much stronger CC.

PopcornBunni2 votes

{quoted}

Because Karma's ulted Q can do disgusting amounts of damage. Also she can shield entire teams.

Janna has the benefit of much stronger CC.

It isn't that it's stronger, but that it's vastly more reliable. I'd argue a 3+ second root is a much, much stronger CC than both a 1..5 second knockup and Janna's R knockback combined, but where Janna has reliable CC AND reliable damage from her W and the additional damage E provides to her ADC, Karma lacks both. Karma Q has very unwieldy damage and the biggest benefit she brings is her RW's massive root, which is likewise unwieldy, and it shows through in her unwieldy winrate.

I don't think the answer is to just make her more reliable (ie easier), because Swain shows how reliable consistent and high damage can become a major issue. It's more an issue with Janna, but I don't think the answer is to nerf enchanters as a whole or even Janna because she still does their job better, evidenced by numerous nerfs to her still resulting in a consistent winrate.

Which is why the changes I asked for aren't to her damage or reliability but to her utility (the slow) and to buff her role as an enchanter (her shield).

Ixoziel3 votes

{quoted}

It isn't that it's stronger, but that it's vastly more reliable. I'd argue a 3+ second root is a much, much stronger CC than both a 1..5 second knockup and Janna's R knockback combined, but where Janna has reliable CC AND reliable damage from her W and the additional damage E provides to her ADC, Karma lacks both. Karma Q has very unwieldy damage and the biggest benefit she brings is her RW's massive root, which is likewise unwieldy, and it shows through in her unwieldy winrate.

I don't think the answer is to just make her more reliable (ie easier), because Swain shows how reliable consistent and high damage can become a major issue. It's more an issue with Janna, but I don't think the answer is to nerf enchanters as a whole or even Janna because she still does their job better, evidenced by numerous nerfs to her still resulting in a consistent winrate.

Which is why the changes I asked for aren't to her damage or reliability but to her utility (the slow) and to buff her role as an enchanter (her shield).

No, it is stronger. She has two AOE knockups. Both are a farm of hard CC (granted the ult knockup doesn't last too long). Karma only has a single-target root. That's not even going into the reliability factors that you mentioned.

Slythion1 votes

two completely different champions dude...there's no way you actually believe that's an acceptable comparison

PopcornBunni2 votes

{quoted}

two completely different champions dude...there's no way you actually believe that's an acceptable comparison

Yes, I do, because both are protective enchanters, except one is also a warden while doing the enchanter job better at the same time.

Karma's abysmal winrates in both support and mid should be point enough that the damage she brings over Janna is no were near compensatory enough to make up for the difference in how the two perform their primary job.

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