. . . reduces armor and MR by 10? Why?
I mean I can see where all the other aspects are coming from, but the MR and armor reduction just doesn't make a lot of sense.
After all, the purpose of Exhaust is to cripple the opponent to make him deal less damage, not for you to deal more damage and encourage you to stack penetration for some reason. It's just so random.
k wìx30 votesExhaust is too important to disabling someone who is fed. It is one of if not the most important summoner spell in the game.
If more players understood this, we'd see flash say goodbye, and exhaust would become dominant. This is doubly important in solo Q when you can't trust your team. It literally is a switch that turns off a fed player for a few seconds.
Edit Also, if Riot wanted to explore support itemization in general, they'd start making items that reproduce exhausts effects in small ways. Y'kno, items that weaken or soften the damage someone is able to do. It should not be all shields and heals.
Serika Zero8 votesthe reason we keep flash is that, maybe exhaust can stop that crucial one time damage damage come from a feed enemy but flash allows us to: escape situations in which we would die, outplay by flashing over skills and saving ally/killing enemy, chase even tho we aren't in the best position
and lets not forget: mobility scales with player's skill You playing a Syndra on Mid-lane (or Malzahar, or others) will most likely get royaly camped and murdered if you lose your flash. ITs a very important summoner spell to stay alive. You can only exhaust one enemy, with flash you can avoid that crucial snare/stun and escape multiple enemies, reposition and do damage.
Exhaust is indeed a very powerful spell. I really like to use it when I play ADC as I don't have to rely on my support to save my ass from the enemy assassin. But, its still not worth taking over flash for most heroes.
Hexelement 1 votes[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7GXL2NW9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-25T14:21:29.010+0000)
Exhaust is too important to disabling someone who is fed. It is one of if not the most important summoner spell in the game.
If more players understood this, we'd see flash say goodbye, and exhaust would become dominant. This is doubly important in solo Q when you can't trust your team. It literally is a switch that turns off a fed player for a few seconds.
Edit Also, if Riot wanted to explore support itemization in general, they'd start making items that reproduce exhausts effects in small ways. Y'kno, items that weaken or soften the damage someone is able to do. It should not be all shields and heals.
Something like the passive on 
, but more like "the last champion hit deals 12% less damage to you".
k wìx1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jourdan X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7GXL2NW9,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2016-12-25T20:33:00.540+0000)
Something like the passive on
to you".
As a support main, I would absolutely love something like this.
PermabannedGaren2 votes[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7GXL2NW9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-25T14:21:29.010+0000)
Exhaust is too important to disabling someone who is fed. It is one of if not the most important summoner spell in the game.
If more players understood this, we'd see flash say goodbye, and exhaust would become dominant. This is doubly important in solo Q when you can't trust your team. It literally is a switch that turns off a fed player for a few seconds.
Edit Also, if Riot wanted to explore support itemization in general, they'd start making items that reproduce exhausts effects in small ways. Y'kno, items that weaken or soften the damage someone is able to do. It should not be all shields and heals.
Why should you be able to remove a player who got themselves fed from the game with the press of a button?
Spice POWAH1 votesI agree, and I use exhaust a lot. They needs to get rid of the armor/mr shred. then we can see how it goes.
k wìx1 votesWhy should you be able to remove a player who got themselves fed from the game with the press of a button?
Honestly? Because it's healthy for game balance. I could type out a huge answer and list points, but its just not worth it. In healthy game design, you want a way for players to be able to 'come back' from being behind, or the game suffers in general - Exhaust, while not required, is designed with this in mind.
**I think exhaust is healthy, balance-wise. It's not abused, its taken on the role that needs it, and it does a DAMN good job at doing what its supposed to do. **
You could pose your question to a lot of summoner spells, honestly. If your looking at making the game better via summoner spells, i think we need to buff underused ones. How about Barrier being castable on an Ally? you'd see less exhaust, and shit - you might change the meta a bit in the process.
Also, your argument ignores a few things, Exhaust is close-ranged, and it doesnt' remove' a player - it massively reduces their damage output for a few seconds. This is a big, big difference.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7GXL2NW9,comment-id=000200030001,timestamp=2016-12-26T19:41:30.085+0000)
Honestly? Because it's healthy for game balance. I could type out a huge answer and list points, but its just not worth it.
If you're unwilling to do something, why say that you could? No one gives a flying shit what you "could" do. Do it.
In healthy game design, you want a way for players to be able to 'come back' from being behind, or the game suffers in general - Exhaust, while not required, is designed with this in mind.
There are other, healthier mechanics that exist or can be implemented for this purpose. Shutdown gold is healthy because it rewards players for being able to kill a very fed person dominating the game.
Only doing so is trivial if you can press a button that makes them immobile, do almost no damage, and take more damage.
**I think exhaust is healthy, balance-wise. It's not abused, its taken on the role that needs it, and it does a DAMN good job at doing what its supposed to do. **
Is disproportionately affecting melee carries, assassins, and divers to the point where they aren't used in high level play or competitive because exhaust counters them so incredibly hard what it's supposed to do? Because that's what it does.
Do you think a fed Xerath particularly cares about exhaust? Not at all.
But a fed Jax or Talon can do almost nothing about it. If exhaust is up, they can't fight, because they will proceed to do almost no damage and probably die if they try to dive in.
Also, it's not abused? It's taken on supports, mid laners, and sometimes even top laners and junglers who can forgo flash for it (like Shyvana, who is really strong right now).
Exhaust is easily the most powerful summoner in the game that isn't flash (which will always be mostly standard, for better or worse).
You could pose your question to a lot of summoner spells, honestly. If your looking at making the game better via summoner spells, i think we need to buff underused ones. How about Barrier being castable on an Ally? you'd see less exhaust, and shit - you might change the meta a bit in the process.
I couldn't actually. Ignite affects everyone mostly equally, with the exception of a few sustain champions (and I do fully believe that grievous wounds should not be in the game). Barrier blunts burst with a shield that blocks the same amount of damage from anyone. TP and flash do the same thing for everyone.
But exhaust makes it so that a big chunk of the cast can't actually do anything at all in a team fight.
Why would you cast barrier on an ally when you could just cast exhaust on the assassin diving your carrier to blow them up? Exhaust makes you take less damage and makes an opponent easier to kill. It is strictly superior to barrier unless barrier is made incredibly over the top.
Casting barrier on an ally would only really have value against certain poke burst comps, like a team with a Lux mid and Jayce top.
And frankly, adcs don't need more shields right now, they already have a huge amount.
Also, your argument ignores a few things, Exhaust is close-ranged, and it doesnt' remove' a player - it massively reduces their damage output for a few seconds. This is a big, big difference.
Exhaust being close-ranged doesn't matter when it is taken for the purpose of dumpstering melee champions or ADCs (almost all of whom have less ranged than it).
It doesn't just massively reduce their damage output for a few seconds. It also slows their movement and shaves ten points off of their resistances, making it much easier to kill them.
k wìx1 votes{quoted} Is disproportionately affecting melee carries, assassins, and divers to the point where they aren't used in high level play or competitive because exhaust counters them so incredibly hard what it's supposed to do? Because that's what it does.
Do you think a fed Xerath particularly cares about exhaust? Not at all.
Sure, it's absolutely better against assassins and carries because they need to get close to deal damage - this is a champion weakness, rather than exhausts strength. I am completely okay with this. I think Riot is too.
But a fed Jax or Talon can do almost nothing about it. If exhaust is up, they can't fight, because they will proceed to do almost no damage and probably die if they try to dive in.
Right, even at high platinum and diamond levels, you can easily make plays to bait exhaust out. Exhaust only works for a few seconds, and if you blow it early - your kinda screwed. This is the nature of the spell - you MUST use it before the damage is applied. League is pretty fast paced, in my opinion - it's a hard spell to time properly against skilled players. It is easily bait-able.
Also, it's not abused? It's taken on supports, mid laners, and sometimes even top laners and junglers who can forgo flash for it (like Shyvana, who is really strong right now).
It certainly wasn't @ worlds, where the very best play. It is RARELY taken on mids and tops. It is pretty exclusively a support spell. Check the data dude. I just simply don't believe you on this one.
Why would you cast barrier on an ally when you could just cast exhaust on the assassin diving your carrier to blow them up? Exhaust makes you take less damage and makes an opponent easier to kill. It is strictly superior to barrier unless barrier is made incredibly over the top.
Barrier could use a buff for sure - but against pokers and mages, I could see it being somewhat viable. Maybe make the shield a touch stronger, or last a touch longer. I'm not saying its a viable choice currently - but it'd be another option. I'd LOVE to have it in the support laning phase against certain supports, like Blitzcrank or Brand.
It doesn't just massively reduce their damage output for a few seconds. It also slows their movement and shaves ten points off of their resistances, making it much easier to kill them.
Like i said above, I think exhaust is well-balanced. It'd be abused more if it wasn't - I don't really buy that its overpicked, and Yea, its better against assassins and melee by design, and I think that's fair. They could nerf Exhaust a smidge, but I don't think they will. Time will tell!
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7GXL2NW9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-25T14:21:29.010+0000)
Also, if Riot wanted to explore support itemization in general, they'd start making items that reproduce exhausts effects in small ways. Y'kno, items that weaken or soften the damage someone is able to do. It should not be all shields and heals.
Yet when I say it I'm downvoted. -_-
k wìx2 votesContext and presentation are important!
xxxDogmanxxx6 votesSometimes, I run 
when I play 
in the top lane. Fuck flash, fuck teleport, and fuck helping my team, sometimes I just really want to win lane and stay there the entire game.
YumaS2Astral2 votesSometimes, I run
Tryndamere can do that because he has a reliable escape, but someone like Darius 
can do that but then they will be an extremely easy target for ganks.
Auz the Ripper1 votesI like to do that with Kassadin
Sckullzz1 votes[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7GXL2NW9,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-12-25T16:20:33.750+0000)
I like to do that with Kassadin
I used to do that all the time! Play safe until 6 and then ruin their day lol
Apocyliptic1 votesNot nearly as good as taking Ignite Flash or Exhaust flash. Unless you're facing a potato of a laner you can't get a kill like that because they just flash away as soon as you blow your summoners. You would in which case need flash to last hit them.
Would be fun in lower elos though, when everyone fights no matter what.
xxxDogmanxxx1 votesYou gotta remember, Flash is a 300-second cooldown, Exhaust is a 210 second cooldown. Plus, do you really think flashing away is effective against a TRYNDAMERE with Exhaust and Ignite?
"Oh, you flashed to tower? Guess who's gonna dive you! Here's a hint: he has two slows, a damage plus armor plus mr reduction spell, burn damage, a damaging gap closer, great healing, huge damage, and an ult that makes him immortal."
Apocyliptic1 votesThat's only after level 6 man and the purpose of taking ignite or exhaust is to get an early first blood BEFORE level 6. By level 6 Tryndamere can already beat most opponents without either summoner, so there's no point in having either.
Most importantly, my point still stands about flashing afterwards to kill them. If you attempt a dive and your opponent has flash expect to get kited quite heavily and die or disengage.
This isn't even mentioning how susceptible to ganks you are. This is also why TP ignite is only popular in Very low silver and bronze.
Verdade3 votesFlat 10MR reduction on exh is AWESOME for champions stacking MRpen in general
ArnoldSchwarzens1 votesYou are contradicting yourself, flat penetration is good against squishies, not MR stacking targets.
Ryuyah8 votesMRpen
ArnoldSchwarzens1 votesYou know how diminishing returns work, right? Only because it penetrates MR doesn't automatically mean that it's good against MR stacking targets.
Verdade2 votesYou know MRpen is MUCH stronger if you stack it, regardless of how much MR target has, right? That is until you reduce MR to 0.
Blackstone011 votesUnless they have changed it, MR can be reduced below 0. I think Blue Golem had negative MR and old soraka could reduce your MR into the negatives with Q.
TeCoolMage1 votesThat's MR reduction: MR reduction can go below 0 BUT is calculated before MPen
so with 30 MPen and 10 MR reduction against a 30 MR target: 10 MR reduction turns it into 20 MR 30 MPen goes to 0 MR due to the cap.
Meanwhile: 10 MPen and 10 MR reduction against a 0 MR target:
10 MR reduction turns it into -10 MR 10 MPen does nothing, can't reduce MR at 0 or below.
As for blue golem, base MR can be negative.
It's just penetration that's the exception to the rule, "can be below 0"
ZephyrDrake1 votesYou know MRpen is MUCH stronger if you stack it, regardless of how much MR target has, right? That is until you reduce MR to 0.
%MRpen is stronger if you stack it, flat one is only strong against champion with low amounts of MR. Yes you will be dealing more damage to those who are stacking MR but they are also building quite a bit of HP as well or are just tankier naturally so you really aren't doing much more against them than just simply pure raw damage wouldn't. Against those with little to no MR you stacking MRpen is going to give you so much better returns since you are very close to dealing true damage on them with every single spell which depending on the champion would be better than just pure raw damage
Kynami1 votesFlat MPen is incredibly strong for a number of magic damage champions with fairly consistent damage output or that have %HP built into their kit.
Brand, Rumble, and Zyra are all examples of were some of the better players can have 45+ Flat pen by the middle of the game. Often to the extreme detriment of their opponents. And later after you throw in Void Staff and the flat pen is applied afterwards? Yeah... It was even more bonkers when Abyssal was an additional 20 reduction from aura and the Locket support wasn't in the area for whoever was getting merked.
But basically unless you have over 90 MR you can be MR zeroed by certain champions. Which is why some champions tend to rack up ungodly high champ damage over the course of a game. And for Brand or Elise every point of negated MR pays massive dividends because of %HP magic damage.
So no, Flat MPen isn't only good against squish. Its just easier to hit the break point for full damage against squish.
ZephyrDrake1 votesFlat MPen is incredibly strong for a number of magic damage champions with fairly consistent damage output or that have %HP built into their kit.
Brand, Rumble, and Zyra are all examples of were some of the better players can have 45+ Flat pen by the middle of the game. Often to the extreme detriment of their opponents. And later after you throw in Void Staff and the flat pen is applied afterwards? Yeah... It was even more bonkers when Abyssal was an additional 20 reduction from aura and the Locket support wasn't in the area for whoever was getting merked.
But basically unless you have over 90 MR you can be MR zeroed by certain champions. Which is why some champions tend to rack up ungodly high champ damage over the course of a game. And for Brand or Elise every point of negated MR pays massive dividends because of %HP magic damage.
So no, Flat MPen isn't only good against squish. Its just easier to hit the break point for full damage against squish.
flat pen is good for a few champions that can abuse it... oh wow! you mean like every stat in the game!? NO WAY!!!!! MRpen is only good against squishies! a non squishy is not going to have 50 MR or 60 they are going to have 100+ MR. A squishy is going to have anywhere between 30 to 70 MR maybe 80 at most. Abyssal even when it reduced MR it really didn't do much against tanks, it was more useful against squishies! the entire point of getting MRpen is to make your damage as close as possible to being true damage which is only achievable against squishies! Tanks laugh in your face when you stack flat MRpen against them... at least those who actually build properly and not think that a single merc thread is enough.
Champions that are pretty much DoT or poke oriented are going to have stupid amounts of damage, regardless of whether they build armor/MRpen or not since they are constantly applying damage throughout the game.
Love how you think that because of one or two champions who are pretty much busted with flat MRpen means that flat MRpen actually works well against tanks. You would be doing way better by selling all those flat MRpen items, getting void and then getting really powerful raw AP items instead of the flat MRpen ones
Kynami1 votesLearn to read mate. There are basically 2 finished flat mpen items in game, 3 if you count a component item. 
the other flat mpen comes from runes and masteries. I also mentioned that you do indeed get void staff and that once that occurs the flat mpen is applied after the percentage penetration.
Feel free to ditch your shoes for a big AP item as somebody that isn't Cassiopeia and get caught because you can't escape. And given the lack of big AP items that are usable by all magic champions (good luck stacking seraph's on somebody with actual cooldowns) the 80 from Liandry's is actually pretty competitive provided your kit can utilize the burn passive effectively.
Seems you fail to realize that flat MPen is applied after percentage pen and thus is still stupidly effective even against tanks. (160 MR * .65) - 60 = 44 remaining effective MR. 160 MR being rough average for a melee with Visage and Mercs plus basic runes at level 18.
ZephyrDrake1 votesLearn to read mate. There are basically 2 finished flat mpen items in game, 3 if you count a component item.
Feel free to ditch your shoes for a big AP item as somebody that isn't Cassiopeia and get caught because you can't escape. And given the lack of big AP items that are usable by all magic champions (good luck stacking seraph's on somebody with actual cooldowns) the 80 from Liandry's is actually pretty competitive provided your kit can utilize the burn passive effectively.
Seems you fail to realize that flat MPen is applied after percentage pen and thus is still stupidly effective even against tanks. (160 MR * .65) - 60 = 44 remaining effective MR. 160 MR being rough average for a melee with Visage and Mercs plus basic runes at level 18.
i know how flat magic pen is applied and i do not give a damn since my point still stands
Asayake 5150glow1 votesYou know MRpen is MUCH stronger if you stack it, regardless of how much MR target has, right? That is until you reduce MR to 0.
Well it's stronger if you stack it, but also weaker the more MR they get.
It's the same thing, really. The lower their MR is(from other magic pen), the more effective lowering their MR(aka getting more magic pen) becomes. The higher it is(from building MR), the less effective lowering it is (getting magic pen).
Catastrop1 votesDoesn't it keep reducing it to the negatives if you have more than the enemy has? Or did they change this? Because this used to be the focal point of my >
+ Mpen from runes and masteries Katarina cheese build.
RocketRelm4 votesstacking MRpen
MRpen ≠ MR
Reaper Soraka2 votesMPen is a direct reduction to MR on your target.
30MPen against a 60MR caitlyn = Caitlyn has 30MR.
void staff works different. If the enemy has 70% magic damage reduction, void staff knocks off 35% of it, making it 45.5%. (notice how it isn't 35%.)
That's how it was explained to me.
50000000000000002 votesVoid staff reduces MR by 35%, not magic damage reduction. So if enemy has 200 MR (67% reduction), you penetrate 35% of the MR, and make that a 130 MR (57% reduction). If your raw burst is 2000 magic damage for example, you'd be doing 860 damage instead of 660 to that 200 MR target, which is about 30% damage amplification from penetration alone.
On the other hand, if the enemy has 30 MR (23% reduction), you penetrate 35% of that, and make that a 19.5 (16% reduction). If your raw burst is 2000 magic damage, then you'd be doing 1674 damage instead of 1540, which is a measly 9% increase.
Which makes sense, since %Mpen is more effective against high MR targets, and flat Mpen is more effective against low MR targets.
tl;dr version is that Mpen calculation uses MR, not the reduction from MR.
Reaper Soraka1 votesoooh thank you!
Ryuyah1 votes + runes + masteries = 30 Mpen
Average level 10 adc MR with scaling MR runes and no MR items = 40 MR
40 - 10 = 30
30 - 30 = 0
Effective MR = 0
ArnoldSchwarzens1 votesExactly, a marksman that didn't buy any MR items and therefore didn't stack any MR will have much more problems with flat pen than a bruiser or a tank. As I said, flat magic penetration is good against squishy targets, not beefy targets.
Ryuyah2 votesHe said it's good for champs that stack Magic Penetration, not Magic Resist
ArnoldSchwarzens5 votesWow, I'm an idiot, lmao.
HateDaddy3 votesWe aren't allowed to nerf exhaust because supports and mages wouldn't have a "click this button to remove a champion for 2.5 seconds" spell
ShaolinToilet3 votesAnyone can take exhaust
Apocalypsic3 votesExhaust is too powerful both offensively and defensively.
Hence why champs like Yas and GP take i as well.
Radiant Wukong1 votesHeal > exhaust barrier > ignite
If you have barrier/exhaust, you should be God tier!
Teémò9 votes
I believe xD
A Basic Island1 votesi just played poro king with you the other day im like 95% sure i was the teemo that was yelling retarded shit every 10 seconds do you remember me
always good to meet a fellow boards troll in game
Teémò1 votesHEY! xD yeah I remember. I kept thinking why did he rush 
xD Good to see you too. Won't be on today though family stuff :P merry christmas to you
PlsTouchMeGently1 votesLove seeing random interactions like this; it makes me happy! Merry Christmas to both of you!
Cowseed1 votesBarrier? That's garbage to me. I take flash exhaust or ghost exhaust if I'm feeling like carrying hard.
Kynami1 votesBarrier can be used while CC'd, even stunned. Furthermore it scales with your resists just like all other shields in the game... So no, barrier for certain champions or match-ups can be incredibly powerful.
+ 
= 
kill combo at 6th hits like a wet noodle.