Can We More Hard Counter Champions?

g07h4xf00··1 votes·579 views

Ever have those games where the enemy team has a full-AD team comp yet somehow your team still manages to lose? Every time I see this happen it makes me want to gouge my own eyes out. You would think that this would be the easiest thing in the world to punish when you have items like item 3075 item 3047 item 3110 item 3143 in the game.

Here's an interesting idea for a CHAMPION that would be a good hard-counter for these types of situations. **AS A PREFACE: I didn't think about the abilities too hard and the numbers are questionable, but the main thing is the passive and how it would fit in the game and be played. Also the champion name and ability names are whatever, change them as you like. **

Champion: Hal'Pem, the Void Walker Passive: Void Walk (Toggle ability, 1 second cooldown)

Toggle to cause Hal'Pem to phase into the void. While Void Walk is active, Hal'Pem cannot be targeted by basic attacks and is immune to abilities that deal physical damage. However, while in this form, he loses all magic resistance and takes 50% increased magic damage from all sources, cannot basic attack, and has his movement speed reduced by 20%.

Q - Chain Lightning [because we still don't have a real chain lightning spell in the game] Mana cost: 120 Range: 600 Cooldown: 9 seconds

ACTIVE: Hal'Pem hurls a bolt of damaging lightning at a target enemy dealing magic damage that jumps to nearby enemies. Each jump deals less damage. Jumps to the closest enemies and cannot jump to the same target twice.

Magic Damage: 85 / 125 / 180 / 250 / 335 (+30% AP) Number of Jumps: 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 Reduced Damage Per Jump: 30% (stacks multiplicatively) Maximum Possible Magic Damage: 235 (+139% AP) / 382 (+153% AP) / 576 (+160% AP) / 817 (+163% AP ) / 1106 (+165% AP)

W - Lightning Shield Mana Cost: 100 Range: 600 Cooldown: 20 seconds

ACTIVE: Hal'Pem shield a target with electricity for 10 seconds. The target discharges on nearby enemies (250 range) dealing magic damage each second for the duration. Additionally, ally champions and minions receive additional armor.

Magic Damage per Second: 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+10% AP) Maximum Magic Damage: 200 / 400 / 600 / 800 / 1000 (+100% AP) Bonus Armor: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 (+5% AP)

E - Decay Mana Cost: 175 Range: 600 Cooldown: 10 seconds

PASSIVE: Hal'Pem weakens nearby enemies, reducing their armor by a flat amount.

Armor Reduction: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25

ACTIVE: Hal'Pem cripples a target enemy champion, reducing their movement speed, attack speed, and physical damage dealt for 2 seconds.

Slow: 25% / 37% / 50% / 62% / 75% Physical Damage Reduction: 10% / 20% / 30% / 40% / 50%

R - Resurrection Mana Cost: 200 Range: 900 Cooldown: 240 / 180 / 120 seconds

ACTIVE: Brings back to life the corpses of friendly nearby minions (killed within the last 30 seconds). These minions become inspired, gaining 100% attack speed and always prioritize nearby enemy champions and structures over enemy minions.

Max Minions Revived: 6 / 12 / 18

This is just a simple kit I thought up that would be interesting and very powerful against teams with too many AD champions. It would be a good counter champion pick because:

  1. He can become immune to physical damage but can absolutely melt to magic damage. Though, while Void Walking he can't use basic attacks and slows himself.
  2. Can boost the armor of his allies. Could help protect a high-priority target.
  3. Can weaken strong enemies. AD comps tend to be more all-in and divey so this would help mitigate the damage. Again, could help protect high-priority targets. This wouldn't really weaken mages as much since they can cast their spells normally.
  4. All-AD comps tend to either be mostly melee, squishy ranged, and have waveclear that's not as good as AP champions with magic damage abilities. His ultimate can be used to revive a recently cleared minion wave and have them focus champions and turrets. Remember the Razorfins from Black Market Brawlers? These minions wouldn't be as OP as those but can still pack quite a punch especially if you have a good mix of super minions, cannon minions, or ranged caster minions. Can also help push down towers since all-AD comps tend to win primarily through splitpushing most of the time. Would also be more punishing for those champions who ignore minion aggro.
  5. Picking this champion against too many AP champions would shut down half of his kit. He could still remain relevant, but he is strongest against more AD-focused comps (like Taric is).
  6. Probably viable in all roles except ADC. Just to be safe, let's make him a melee champion.

**BEFORE YOU START RAGING AT ME OR DOWNVOTING IM GOING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YES, THIS KIT IS PROBABLY OP. **The numbers are likely high and could use some tweaks. It's just the general idea of having a relatively straightforward champion that is more about strategy and macro-level decisions than mechanics and micro-level decisions. However, could have a unique role in the game and would be fun. Frustrating to play against if you're an AD champion (or a comp with too many ADs), but potentially fun if you're a mage or some sort of AP champion.

Just an idea I had I wanted to bring up, maybe get people discussing about champions, roles, strategy, and simplicity vs complexity of champion kits. Also I hate losing to all-AD comp--I'm running out of eyeballs I want to gouge out. Also appropriate because armor items are getting ruined by changes in 5.16.

14 Comments

pripustas1 votes

Volibear would like to meet you for a drink, and talk about that Q (he'll probably eat you, I wouldn't go) On a serious note, why would you want to create a champion that counters AD? Talon is my champion for mid, and it's already hard against full armor. That champion would completely ruin him. Also, Malphite And we don't have hard AP counters that are viable picks.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Volibear would like to meet you for a drink, and talk about that Q (he'll probably eat you, I wouldn't go)

Oh, the chain lightning thing? Idk the "chain lightning" effects from Volibear ult, item 3087, Fiddlesticks crow aren't as satisfying.

On a serious note, why would you want to create a champion that counters AD? Talon is my champion for mid, and it's already hard against full armor. That champion would completely ruin him.

That's why you would pick Talon in a team that already has a lot of AP?

Also, Malphite

Malphite hasn't been very good for the longest time. I think the last time I saw him in a pro game was in Season 3. He has some glaring flaws with his kit. He's basically a tank that doesn't have very much CC outside of his ultimate. Also, if you don't hit a good ult, what good is he, really?

Too soft of a counter.

And we don't have hard AP counters that are viable picks.

Galio is the closest thing. I only gave an example because full-AD team comps happen but full-AP team comps are rare because ADCs exist.

pripustas1 votes

Yep, That's why you would pick Talon in a team that already has a lot of AP? <- THAT bugs me. You have to pick marksman and support in every single game. But you can't do that with someone like AD assassin? (you can, but you get the idea) So either make more viable tools to change marksman and support being crucial in every game (we'll see how Morde turns out) or make picking anyone viable no matter the team comp. Right now it's like discrimination by race. It's not fair, and should not exist.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Yep, That's why you would pick Talon in a team that already has a lot of AP? <- THAT bugs me. You have to pick marksman and support in every single game. But you can't do that with someone like AD assassin? (you can, but you get the idea)

Supports do magic damage (Annie would like a word with you), and if you have an AP top laner an AP jungler then Talon is a safe pick.

So either make more viable tools to change marksman and support being crucial in every game (we'll see how Morde turns out) or make picking anyone viable no matter the team comp. Right now it's like discrimination by race. It's not fair, and should not exist.

Race?? AD is a race??

pripustas1 votes

You clearly don't understand what I meant. I meant that anyone AP or AD, any champion at any time should be a viable pick for his lane. You know how people were and sometimes still are discriminated by their race? That's what I meant. AD assassins are at a disadvantage in itemization and picking viability. Marksmen are at fault for this. Riot are at fault for this, for not making viable AP picks into bottom.

NemeBro1 votes

His W alone is more powerful than many ultimates. Put that on a tank and the team fight is basically won.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

His W alone is more powerful than many ultimates. Put that on a tank and the team fight is basically won.

It's not too different than Mordekaiser W but more specialized.

Again, maybe tweak some numbers. Just ideas.

Bârd1 votes

Wrong board.

Passive: How the hell do you toggle something without a key attatched? Q: So... season 1 fiddle E with no silence? W: Creeping death E: eh. fine. R: That is completely useless. Ressurecting a creep wave? On a 4 minute cooldown? That is the single longest cooldown on a champion ability, and it is on one that is worthless (look at me guys, every four minutes I can give the enemy adc another cannon minion to kill!)

g07h4xf001 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7EhdtvLU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-19T09:49:44.045+0000)

Wrong board.

Probably.

Passive: How the hell do you toggle something without a key attatched?

Not sure, Maybe attach it to "P" or some other key? If Azir can have an active passive why not.

Q: So... season 1 fiddle E with no silence?

Yes, it's pure damage.

W: Creeping death E: eh. fine. R: That is completely useless. Ressurecting a creep wave? On a 4 minute cooldown? That is the single longest cooldown on a champion ability, and it is on one that is worthless (look at me guys, every four minutes I can give the enemy adc another cannon minion to kill!)

A niche ultimate, yes. I gave it a long cooldown and a situational power to make up for the fact that this champion's passive is really good. Maybe decrease the cooldown a bit? Also, this could be useful in a lane if your lane opponent goes all-in on you and you revive a minion wave with 100% bonus attack speed that focuses the enemy champion (minion aggro is really good early game). You can win the fight (hopefully) then maybe push down the tower.

I can see it being useful in mid/late game situationally.

SKOBODO1 votes

So, this champion basically wins any duel vs most AD champions by toggling his passive. Oh, and if the enemy team's magic damage champions die early, he basically cleans up easily. And only magic damage champions can stop him from splitpushing.

Sasogwa1 votes

So basically, it's a free win against AD teams/ still OP against mixed teams. Build full MR/damage with toggle on invulnerability to physical damage and AA, and kill everyone.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

So basically, it's a free win against AD teams/ still OP against mixed teams. Build full MR/damage with toggle on invulnerability to physical damage and AA, and kill everyone.

You seem to ignore the fact that he has really high mana costs and pretty high cooldowns.

Mixed teams with AP solo laners like Rumble top with like Viktor mid? He would pop like a balloon if he used his passive at the wrong time. If he builds full MR it doesn't help him while Void Walking so he dies just as fast. If he's not Void Walking with a full-MR build, he would almost immediately die to AD damage. See the trade-off?

Maybe increase the cooldown of his passive so it has say, a 2-second cooldown between toggles or something? Or maybe 3 seconds? Can figure it out.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

You seem to ignore the fact that he has really high mana costs and pretty high cooldowns.

Mixed teams with AP solo laners like Rumble top with like Viktor mid? He would pop like a balloon if he used his passive at the wrong time. If he builds full MR it doesn't help him while Void Walking so he dies just as fast. If he's not Void Walking with a full-MR build, he would almost immediately die to AD damage. See the trade-off?

Maybe increase the cooldown of his passive so it has say, a 2-second cooldown between toggles or something? Or maybe 3 seconds? Can figure it out.

Well, he literally is unkillable in lane if faced against an AD opponent. There is literally nothing an AD champion can do. MB for the passive, I just saw shortly after it removes all his MR. Well, he's both unhealthy and possibly useless in teamfights if he gets caught out by a magic damage dealer. Sure that can bring out interesting strategies as to focus the magic damage dealers and then clean up ; but I am fiercely against something that brings literally no counterplay to a class of champion, aka if you're champion A vs champion B you can STRICTLY do nothing (so what I'm talking about wouldn't include what people usually call no-counterplay champions Annie but more champions like Kalista Vayne Oh you're melee and dont have huge mobility? I hope you'll have fun NEVER touching me).

You should always be able to do the slightest amount of damage to someone. Reducing their damage output by a % is fine, countering them is fine. Them not being able to do anything is NOT fine.

PS : chain lightning from Prophet/Thrall hero (Warcraft 3), lightning shield from shaman unit (War 3 too), a Nasus-like slow except %dmg reduction instead of AS slow, a Paladin-Deathknight like ultimate (War 3)?

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Well, he literally is unkillable in lane if faced against an AD opponent. There is literally nothing an AD champion can do.

Lane swap with your mid/mage?

MB for the passive, I just saw shortly after it removes all his MR. Well, he's both unhealthy and possibly useless in teamfights if he gets caught out by a magic damage dealer. Sure that can bring out interesting strategies as to focus the magic damage dealers and then clean up ; but I am fiercely against something that brings literally no counterplay to a class of champion, aka if you're champion A vs champion B you can STRICTLY do nothing (so what I'm talking about wouldn't include what people usually call no-counterplay champions Annie but more champions like Kalista Vayne Oh you're melee and dont have huge mobility? I hope you'll have fun NEVER touching me).

You should always be able to do the slightest amount of damage to someone. Reducing their damage output by a % is fine, countering them is fine. Them not being able to do anything is NOT fine.

I guess the main focus of this champion is strategy, not necessarily "how do I kill him as an AD champion?" Kills aren't the most important part of the game, there are other options. Also objectives is a thing. The point is, if you run an all-AD comp against this champion it's supposed to be difficult to win. If you plan to do that either ban him, pick him (his E gives an armor debuff aura), or don't play an all-AD comp.

Perhaps. Though, the game isn't about getting kills. Instead of trying to fight, maybe shove a tower or go to another lane to gank? Lane swap? His passive also reduces his own movespeed by 20% so it's not like he can hunt you down to keep casting spells. His spells have high mana costs and cooldowns, too.

PS : chain lightning from Prophet/Thrall hero (Warcraft 3), lightning shield from shaman unit (War 3 too), a Nasus-like slow except %dmg reduction instead of AS slow, a Paladin-Deathknight like ultimate (War 3)?

Yes ;)

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