The thing with the circlejerking on ADC's..

Sasogwa·Mar 20, 2018·67 votes·3,378 views

Is that in earlier seasons I would never have thought I'd one day complain about them. I remember back in like season 2, season 3 I thought ADC's felt kinda weak as fuck, but I knew they were balanced because after all they were really well catered around botlane, and adc+support just beat pretty much any other lane while synergizing better with the gold/exp repartition of one lane for 2 champions (ADC's need gold more than exp, and supps have good base damages and base utility to make up for lack of resources). But NEVER did I think "shit, that guys deals too much damage, he scales way too hard, way too fast, he's basically way too safe, etc." Even when they were fed, they weren't utterly overwhelming, they didn't feel like the whole game revolved around them; and yet they were still the one and only metagame bot, and in a fine state. Also they were getting oneshot easily, so they had to build real defensive items like Banshee's at the time, or Guardian angel (that gave both resists, no AD). Some comps did play around adc's, there were Kog comps even though rageblade, botrk, current runaan's didn't even exist at the time. They scaled well, but it took a lot of time, there were lanebullies but those falled off significantly. Having no attackspeed steroids or something similar in your kit meant your lategame DPS was underwhelming as it should and was compensated by very strong lane ()

How fucking ridiculously powercreeped has botlane become?...

Anyway, adc's and supports don't need to scale that stupidly well, that stupidly fast to be viable. They are just put in an insanely powerful spot on purpose. I don't know which one though.

80 Comments

rtbf86330229Mar 20, 201827 votes

The problem is they can't balance ADC's to do damage to tanks and squishies, because constant damage to tanks often means 1 shots to squishies.

iPooUnicornsMar 20, 201824 votes

If only there were some kind of damage that scaled off of how much HP the enemy has...

MarshbouyMar 20, 20185 votes

Rework everyone to deal % max health damage?

That could be...interesting.

iPooUnicornsMar 20, 201811 votes

Wasn't trying to imply that.

Riot historically had champions/items that were better against tanks (%HP) but not as strong against squishier enemies. But they decided that crit should also be anti tank, which is fundamentally flawed.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 20, 20186 votes

Agreed. But... Giant slayer has an attack modifier that deals more dmg for every 200 more hp a target has than ur champ right? It's in Lord Doms regards right?

MarshbouyMar 21, 20181 votes

Correct and correct. 2% more damage against champions with 200 more health than you, capping at a 2000 hp difference or 20% more damage.

PB4UAMEMar 22, 20181 votes

On top of 35% bonus armor shred, for like what, $2600 gold? And yet you never see anyone buy it, because they can melt tanks in sub 5 seconds without one, and it only helps vs tanks.

They already have THE ANTI TANK ITEM TO BEAT ALL ANTI TANK ITEMS item 3036 (Bonus for it being cost effective without even factoring Giant Slayer at all at just 62 armor) With a healthy heaping of item 3153 which will destroy any tank with sub 300 armor by itself. And get this:

THEY DON'T EVEN NEED, NOR BUY, EITHER. YET STILL DESTROY EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME IN UNDER 8 SECONDS AS SOON AS THEY GET 2+ ITEMS

Oh and they also get item 3139 + item 3812 + item 3026 + item 3046 + item 3156 to make themselves unkillable unless chain CCed. Really, they only need one of those, let alone stacking them together.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

On top of 35% bonus armor shred, for like what, $2600 gold? And yet you never see anyone buy it, because they can melt tanks in sub 5 seconds without one, and it only helps vs tanks.

They already have THE ANTI TANK ITEM TO BEAT ALL ANTI TANK ITEMS (Bonus for it being cost effective without even factoring Giant Slayer at all at just 62 armor) With a healthy heaping of which will destroy any tank with sub 300 armor by itself. And get this:

THEY DON'T EVEN NEED, NOR BUY, EITHER. YET STILL DESTROY EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME IN UNDER 8 SECONDS AS SOON AS THEY GET 2+ ITEMS

Oh and they also get + + + + to make themselves unkillable unless chain CCed. Really, they only need one of those, let alone stacking them together.

Yeah that's when u kno u gotta problem.

SociaI JusticeMar 21, 20181 votes

i remember stacking armor and lifesteal on champions, shit was cash.

Leaf of the lakeMar 21, 20182 votes

You still can.

item 3153 item 3072 item 3085 item 3047 item 3026

This build is pretty par for the course for kalista players.

SpoofghoulMar 20, 201811 votes

{quoted}

If only there were some kind of damage that scaled off of how much HP the enemy has...

That leads only to 1 of 2 things

either tanks stop building any significant health and just stack frozenhearths for example

or if that get's addressed and cannot be done they will just build damage or play different class

now also take into consideration that if the adc doesn't have beefy's as a viable target then they will lose a lot of value because their % sucks vs anything they can't shred because the other classes that don't have the hp will just blow them up before they can kill them with less tanks to protect them to do anything

Best case would be to rework crit to bypass % bonus armor on critical hit and significantly lower crit's bonus damage then get rid of last whisper and voila we have a class which excels at dealing with high armor targets that naturally scales up to defeat their defenses without blowing up squishies

DrugothMar 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Best case would be to rework crit to bypass % bonus armor on critical hit and significantly lower crit's bonus damage then get rid of last whisper and voila we have a class which excels at dealing with high armor targets that naturally scales up to defeat their defenses without blowing up squishies.

Huh... That actually sounds like it could work...

I'm at a loss for words here.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

SteelflameMar 21, 20182 votes

I mean I've been talking about that basic premise for months now. Crit needs to be a penetration stat, not a raw damage amp stat. It still will always amp your damage (No one has 0 armor ever except in extremely rare cases abusing Trundle ult's interaction with several defensive steroids...), but you will see far more benefit on bulky targets than squishy ones when you build crit. Which intrinsicly makes it more valuable vs those tanky targets, and less for dealing with the 80 armor enchanter support with a literal 1 shot crit.

SqueyMar 21, 20189 votes

or if that get's addressed and cannot be done they will just build damage or play different class

Then they can die to anyone easily and there isnt a NEED for the adc that game and they will just be average.

now also take into consideration that if the adc doesn't have beefy's as a viable target then they will lose a lot of value because their % sucks vs anything they can't shred because the other classes that don't have the hp will just blow them up before they can kill them with less tanks to protect them to do anything

This is a good thing. If the adc no longer has beefy targets to hit then the adc did his job. Or the enemy team drafted a team comp that is countered by your tanks. The mage then becomes the carry for the rest of the fight. NEVER EVER shold the adc or the mage be the single team carry. Its supposed to be shared. Adc's where never meant to kill everything. Adc's THINK they are supposed to kill everything. Realistically the mage is there to kill squishies and the adc is there to kill the tanks. Thinking adc's are supposed to be the best damage dealers and good verse everything is what got us to the mess we are in.

Best case would be to rework crit to bypass % bonus armor on critical hit and significantly lower crit's bonus damage then get rid of last whisper and voila we have a class which excels at dealing with high armor targets that naturally scales up to defeat their defenses without blowing up squishies

This is worth a try at least. But honestly the first thing that needs to happen is Riot getting together and figuring what NICHE they want the adc role to have. Right now they kill** everything** quickly and need little help to do so. Its getting to the point where the optimal team comp is 2 adc's (1 with wave clear) ( can be substituted for a mage if they do high consistant dps like ryze/azir) and 3 tanks( 1 for peel, 1 for initiation, and 1 for follow up initiation). You might think im exaggerating but its been trying to head down that path for awhile.

Protect the kog comps? If the only threat is Kogmaw and the team comp works then something is broken. There have also been lcs meta's where Corki/lucian/ezreal/ other adc was mid with sometimes an adc jungle and adc bot supported by 1 peel support and 1 engage tank. And at those times They usually won. THe 2 adc comp had the highest win rate and later was nerfed in some way.

PS: Its gotten so bad that when u say " omg that adc killed my mage b4 he could even get his combo off" people respond with " well ya adc's are the best single target damage dealers and should kill the mage". This shows how out of hand things have gotten if even the adc's think they are supposed to win the fight against, what is supposed to be, one of there counters( the other being assassins).

SpoofghoulMar 21, 20182 votes

I agree with most this.

My point was that adc's need a ''niche'' i want them to be average with each having their own strength ofc but i think their niche should be to be strong vs armored targets/tanks by being able to kill them over time with dps in terms of team fighting and to be good at taking objectives and be a crucial part in the siege on turrets with their ranged dps

Bonus points of reworking crit as i suggested

Lifesteal becomes less BS
RNG crits are less of an issue
Options for on crit effect items for added utility

I think % damage is dangerous to have too much off and should be limited to a niche strength like being strong vs beefy enemies One thing i have seen happen is that when % damage on a champion gets high enough they just build tank items which leads me to my next point on % damage

I also think it would fit the tanks class more to have a % damage ability in their kit but preferably not too spammable and with enough counter play, Sion shield is a good example of a good % damage ability. it gives tanks agency damage wise vs most targets without having to resort to building damage and if balanced properly gives them a baseline effectiveness vs most targets without them blowing up squishies like an assassin

wildfox99Mar 21, 20187 votes

or if that get's addressed and cannot be done they will just build damage or play different class

Then they can die to anyone easily and there isnt a NEED for the adc that game and they will just be average.

exactly,if they don't pick tanks don't pick an ADC,that would finally make them less mandatory

picking an ADC against a full damage/burst team comp should be like picking for example an assassin against a full tank/peeling team comp,you should be useless unless you are far better than them

Bird GirIMar 21, 20181 votes

The adc must have been grossly fed to survive the whole combo and kill him before another spell comes up, and you know it. Don't be ridiculous. And please don't bring up the "adc's in multiple roles meta" meme back. There's something seriously wrong with the brain of someone who thinks it counts if that adc playing a different role is complete garbage in the bot lane. Ezreal, Graves, Quinn, Corki are all trash bot whenever they are viable elsewhere. That's like thinking tanks are broken just because Braum can go bot, Malphite can go top, Galio can go mid, and Sejuani can go jungle. "They can do every role. So broken." Yeah, no.

The issue right now is that the strongest ADCs and the strongest supports are too strong right now while the other ADCs and supports are too weak. Bot lane has the least diversity right now. Top, jungle, and especially mid all have many many viable champions with good win rates and pick rates.

If anything, tanks as a class are overpowered. Why do you think there's two high DPS champions picked in mid and adc role in every competitive game? To deal with the tanks, not because they're inherently strong. Kog is trash in solo queue but great in pro play for this reason. He shines when he has three targets to use his % damage against. Why do you think tanks are running rampant with 3 tank comps in every competitive game? They're too safe early on with few ways to punish their passive play until they outscale everything late game.

Once fighters get a hold of conqueror and go back to winning the match up like they should instead of losing it all the time, top tanks will fall back in line. Tank jungle and support are still an issue, but top was the most egregious case. Conq affects the role with the strongest tank (highest income), so it should help.

Serious4WhyMar 21, 20181 votes

I mean I think an ADC with Guinsoo's and Wit's end could outburst a mage, but I'd have to look at the numbers. I think Varus could 1v1 something like a Viktor, Ryze or Ahri in the early/mid game.

Bird GirIMar 21, 20182 votes

This I will agree with. Anyone who gets 1v1'd by Kog instead of blowing spells and walking away deserves to lose. As far as Varus goes, you don't have that option. He is ridiculous and rightfully nerfed this patch. I would know since I abused him. Full combo once he had rageblade would always one shot another ADC or a mage who didn't build defensive, and his ult and E would keep you from getting away. Doesn't apply to other ADCs in most cases.

Serious4WhyMar 21, 20181 votes

Yeah, Guinsoos wit's end is just too strong of a combo rn, the thing I like about the guinsoo's changes this patch is that your Adaptive runes won't give you AP when you complete the item. That annoyed me a lot haha.

Bird GirIMar 22, 20181 votes

TBH AP is better than AD on Varus against anyone moderately tanky. His hybrid build was nuts. RB, boots, WE, then your last 3 items consist of any combination of banshee's, zhonya's, liandry's, deathcap, void staff, nashor's. Melts tanks for half their HP per triple blight proc. Sadly not doable this patch. Will have to find something else or a different build order for him.

Skeletons GraveMar 21, 20183 votes

The adc must have been grossly fed to survive the whole combo and kill him before another spell comes up,

Not true. For 1 the adc has cheaper items so they will get there items faster. (2) adc's have the mobility to dodge skill shots and/or the cc to make sure the mage cant get away. Early game the mage doesnt have the damage or the cd's to kill an adc. Late game most mage will die if they miss a single ability or get cc'd. Plenty of times i have seen even syndra die solo to the adc before her ult animation could even finish. Also it doesnt take very many items for kog to kill someone faster then they can throw 2 skills out.

if anything, tanks as a class are overpowered

Tanks are just the same choice. They are reliable and needed to protect your carries.

Top, jungle, and especially mid all have many many viable champions with good win rates and pick rates.

For the most part top, mid and jungle pick 1 of 2 jobs. Protect ur adc or reliably kill the enemies adc. If you cant do either of these well then your not meta. Unless ofcourse your a hard carry urself like azir ( mage adc) or GP ( aoe adc) ect.

If you pick a champ to kill the enemy adc then you have to perform otherwise playing a tank and peeling would of been better. Also your team does need peel. If you dont opt into it then someone else has too. If no1 does then your team auto loses.

GigglesOMar 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If only there were some kind of damage that scaled off of how much HP the enemy has...

item 3153 item 3036 I mean the other solution is to just make it so that Tanks deal less damage and aren't a wombo combo threat of 1 rotation killing the enemy.

PB4UAMEMar 22, 20182 votes

They need to be a threat, and when they went from survivng 10-30 seconds in a teamfight from Seasons 2-4 to surviving 5 or so seconds currently, they can't exactly wait for multiple rotations of CC to be the threat it used to be, as well, they don't live long enough for multiple rotations most of the time. So, instead, with everyone's defenses being nerfed, or outright removed, and there being next to no defensive runes to take relative to offensive options, and wouldn't you know, the tanks using damage from runes and items are now a threat to ADCs who don't build a single defensive item at all, and somehow aren't able to permakite the tank.

GigglesOMar 22, 20181 votes

Yea, thats a huge balance issue.

wildfox99Mar 21, 20181 votes

what if crits deals more damage for successive attacks?

example :

first AA deals 100% AD damage,the 2nd 100%+X% (for example +20% so 120% damage),3rd 100 + X% + X% (140%),up to 200% damage

that would make crit a tank buster stat without giving it too much % damage that would be hard to balance especially with some kits ( Vayne KogMaw )/items ( item 3124 ) or copying an already existing passive ( item 3036 )

iPooUnicornsMar 21, 20181 votes

I posted a topic a couple weeks back with a similar suggestion, but received no responses. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/GAT9ElVa-riot-meddler-some-proposed-changes-to-marksmen

tl;dr of the changes:

Ranged Champions' Critical Strike Damage is reduced from 200% -> 150%

A new effect either placed as a passive buff for all Marksmen or added onto Infinity Edge for ranged champions:

Auto attacks on enemy champions increases Critical Strike Damage by 5%, stacking up to 10 times, for 10 seconds (Infinity Edge would increase the stack value to 10%)(each attack refreshes the cooldown) (Unaffected by Rageblade).

For Jhin and Graves this would have to be tweaked to compensate for their ammo system and fixed low attack speed, possibly 25% per stack, stacking up to 2 times instead.
The duration and values of these stacks likely would need to be tweaked.

Automated RivenMar 20, 20186 votes

That's easy. Make tanks do less damage. Change normal crits to 150% and ie crits to 200% bam, fixed it.

KarfussMar 20, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thicc Gragas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7E8AANIT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-20T18:14:15.805+0000)

The problem is they can't balance ADC's to do damage to tanks and squishies, because constant damage to tanks often means 1 shots to squishies.

I mention something similar to this in threads concerning ADCs.

High penetration, high base AD and burst don't go hand in hand. For exactly that reason. They never did, it was just never as overwhelming because GA was an actual trade of damage for survivability, Zeal items were more expensive, BF sword was more expensive and Statikk Shiv didn't exist.

SolitairMar 20, 201828 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thicc Gragas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7E8AANIT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-20T18:14:15.805+0000)

The problem is they can't balance ADC's to do damage to tanks and squishies, because constant damage to tanks often means 1 shots to squishies.

It really doesn't, and it's really not so hard. I don't know why Riot has such an issue with this.

The marksman class should do less damage in a short time than the mage class. A mage's burst should do markedly more damage in a short amount of time at any stage of the game than a marksman can ever do in that time, even with high crit rate. A mage's combo should always be significantly higher than a marksman's full kit rotation in the same duration of time including any non-skill autos.
A mage's cooldowns should be significant enough that a marksman's damage has time to stack up to match/surpass the mage's burst over long periods of time.

So the balance is that High DPS should come at the expense of burst. You cannot burst a target, but what makes the DPS higher than the burst over time is the presence of consistent damage output over time resulting from the consistency of AD scaled autos being the primary source of damage. Cooldowns are essentially what keeps the mage from being able to out-dps the marksman, while still being able to outburst them.

I don't think marksmen are really supposed to be tank busters. No one should just "bust" a tank. But tanks shouldn't be enough of a threat on their own that they need to be busted anyway. Tanks are team oriented. Marksmen should be a more reliable source of damage against tanks due to sustaining damage, but they shouldn't be "tank busters". A focused Marksman should be able to take down a target fast with a coordinated team, but a mage should have the aoe ability to be a primary threat.

Marksmen should be strong at dealing damage to objectives. Tanks should be strong in forcing those objectives. Mages should be strong threats to the aquisition of those objectives or to the enemy team, but also should do some damage to them.

A marksman should never be a strong duelist. A marksman should never be a primary source of AOE damage. A marksman's single autos should never be strong enough to outburst a burst class.

In fact, it's stupidly obvious what Riot could do to fix this.

SwiftKitten88Mar 20, 20189 votes

{quoted}

It really doesn't, and it's really not so hard. I don't know why Riot has such an issue with this.

The marksman class should do less damage in a short time than the mage class. A mage's burst should do markedly more damage in a short amount of time at any stage of the game than a marksman can ever do in that time, even with high crit rate. A mage's combo should always be significantly higher than a marksman's full kit rotation in the same duration of time including any non-skill autos.

A mage's cooldowns should be significant enough that a marksman's damage has time to stack up to match/surpass the mage's burst over long periods of time.

So the balance is that High DPS should come at the expense of burst. You cannot burst a target, but what makes the DPS higher than the burst over time is the presence of consistent damage output over time resulting from the consistency of AD scaled autos being the primary source of damage. Cooldowns are essentially what keeps the mage from being able to out-dps the marksman, while still being able to outburst them.

I don't think marksmen are really supposed to be tank busters. No one should just "bust" a tank. But tanks shouldn't be enough of a threat on their own that they need to be busted anyway. Tanks are team oriented. Marksmen should be a more reliable source of damage against tanks due to sustaining damage, but they shouldn't be "tank busters". A focused Marksman should be able to take down a target fast with a coordinated team, but a mage should have the aoe ability to be a primary threat.

Marksmen should be strong at dealing damage to objectives. Tanks should be strong in forcing those objectives. Mages should be strong threats to the aquisition of those objectives or to the enemy team, but also should do some damage to them.

A marksman should never be a strong duelist. A marksman should never be a primary source of AOE damage. A marksman's single autos should never be strong enough to outburst a burst class.

In fact, it's stupidly obvious what Riot could do to fix this.

@riot.... hire this guy...

AxzariousMar 21, 20182 votes

This is a great analysis, and I also believe this is how it should be. If I might ramble on a bit?

Amusingly, this was also once the case in League when I started the game - though I do remember that mages usually needed to whittle down opponents before they could get into burst range and teamfights also lasted longer. The strength of the Mage-class was burst and wave-clear, while ADCs were turret damage and sustained damage. The power creep in champion kits across the board has muddied the identity of champion roles... I also think that it's harder to pinpoint what you might regard as the 'prime' example of what every 'subclass' might be, especially when the line between Tanks and Fighters seems to become increasingly blurred with every new release and rework. Tanks used to have a lot of CC but do less damage, wheras a fighter had a lot of damage and innate bulk, but little CC. Now there's a ton of tanks with not only oodles of CC, but also feature things like damage that scales off of HP and %damage.

What I think catapulted ADCs to the front of the line to being good at so much was the cost reduction for their core items, with each of those items further feeding off one another, more than the other classes. An ADC getting hit by a full combo of a mage SHOULD kill them more often than not - because as it stands, that ADC is more than likely just going to obliterate you if they survive or if you miss a single skill. Hell, I've seen ADCs manage to kill a mage while taking their entire combo to the face by virtue of lifesteal and crit alone.

I think Riot should really try to break down what each and every class means at it's core. Tanks? Damage Mitigation, Sustain, Crowd Control. Pick two. ADC? Range, Mobility/Safety, Damage. Pick Two. Probably grossly oversimplified here, but there are some champions who seem to do everything well. Tristana? Twitch? They do it all. Course, try as you might - there will always be tiers.

FatedSaviourMar 22, 20181 votes

i tried making a post about players balancing the game, but people downvoted me, they would listen to you, try making a post on everything riot can do to balance the game, and ask others for their opinions, because around here, is i feel like most posts that arent circlejirks, dont hit the front page to be noticed

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 20, 20182 votes

And there inlies the issue, fighters and juggernaut should be the ones to fight tanks, as though they can have lower dmg compared to current marksmen they have the survivability to eventually beat them. Then u can give marksmen another target and lower thier dmg and make them rely more on skill, position and kiting like they are supposed 2 be, and not bursting and life- stealing thier way thru fights

CaveslothMar 20, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thicc Gragas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7E8AANIT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-20T18:14:15.805+0000)

The problem is they can't balance ADC's to do damage to tanks and squishies, because constant damage to tanks often means 1 shots to squishies.

Someone suggested in another thread that Bruisers should be the tank killers, designed with % heath damage so they can go toe to toe and kill tanks in longer battles, rather than the adcs being tank busters, which has caused this whole cluster.

PB4UAMEMar 22, 20182 votes

For the first, what, 5-6 years bruisers were the tank killers.

the whole fucking meme of ADCs being tank killers was never true to begin with. It's such a dumbing down of what was going on as to basically be an out right lie.

ADCs did the least damage to tanks of every target they could hit.

They would ALWAYS kill every other type of champion FASTER THAN THEY EVER COULD KILL A TANK. PERIOD

However, they were also about the only person you actually wanted to be attacking the tank. Every other class has the tools to hit squishier, more important targets. ADCs were supposed to be (but haven't been for several years) balanced around NOT HAVING AGENCY IN TEAMFIGHTS, but instead being forced to attack anyone they could safely engage with the safety of their range. They were SUPPOSED to LOSE 1 vs 1 against EVERY OTHER champion archetype, and THEY DID but they made up for it with the highest possible DPS if they were allowed to sit there, unmolested, and get 20-30 seconds worth of DPS in.

Not fucking frontline, catch someone out with a CC or wait for an ally's CC, then 100-0 that target in 3 or less auto attacks, with all the peel, shields, heals, self peel/CC, and mobility to disengage or shrug off just about any engage, and the damage to win virtually every single 1 vs 1 once they've built a measly 2 items.

CaveslothMar 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

For the first, what, 5-6 years bruisers were the tank killers.

the whole fucking meme of ADCs being tank killers was never true to begin with. It's such a dumbing down of what was going on as to basically be an out right lie.

ADCs did the least damage to tanks of every target they could hit.

They would ALWAYS kill every other type of champion FASTER THAN THEY EVER COULD KILL A TANK. PERIOD

However, they were also about the only person you actually wanted to be attacking the tank. Every other class has the tools to hit squishier, more important targets. ADCs were supposed to be (but haven't been for several years) balanced around NOT HAVING AGENCY IN TEAMFIGHTS, but instead being forced to attack anyone they could safely engage with the safety of their range. They were SUPPOSED to LOSE 1 vs 1 against EVERY OTHER champion archetype, and THEY DID but they made up for it with the highest possible DPS if they were allowed to sit there, unmolested, and get 20-30 seconds worth of DPS in.

Not fucking frontline, catch someone out with a CC or wait for an ally's CC, then 100-0 that target in 3 or less auto attacks, with all the peel, shields, heals, self peel/CC, and mobility to disengage or shrug off just about any engage, and the damage to win virtually every single 1 vs 1 once they've built a measly 2 items.

Yep, that's what broke everything, was messing with the power dynamic between classes, granted making everything lethal as all hell didn't help, but this was what started the problem, then tried to fix it with "MORE DAMAGE FOR EVERYONE".

DeusVultMar 20, 20183 votes

Tanks 1 shotting ADCs is hyperbole

ADCs might die if they get picked by a tank and the tank blows their ENTIRE kit on that one ADC, but isnt most of an ADCs defenses supposed to come from positioning + their support?

They are a glass cannon class, that is how they work

HarrowRMar 21, 20184 votes

I hate this argument,and this point that people make. Literally EVERYONE in the game can one shot a squishy,especially if fed,what's the point of your statement,Mages,Assassins,Fighters,Divers,Juggernauts,Slayers,even some Tanks and Supports(especially supports like Brand) can one shot a damn squishy. Yes marksmen deal sustained damage,yes,that means that they shouldn't one shot,and they don't unless when extremely ahead or full build,yet you're all here acting like a 2 -3 item sivir does the same burst,especially if not rocking a shiv,as a 3 item Zed,Talon,Syndra,Veigar,Fiora,Jayce etc. so why shouldn't a full damage no defense,glass canon class not be able to do damage when fed,yes i do understand mages and assassins have cds, skillshots and cant kill tanks in a sense they do less damage overall,but at the same time i really dont think any adc can compete in burst damage compared to assassins and burst mages,nor can they compare in the amount of CC or Utility that some mages bring nor can they Tank and dish out damage like some Juggernauts like Urgot or Darius can when fed.

2nd argument that people usually make is that they are designed to kill tanks,now i didn't see a SINGLE statement from the riot devs that ADCs are designed solely to act as an anti-tank class. News flash,its because they're not,they are supposed to be ranged physical damage dealers,and yes some are more bursty some have more traditional sustained damage but yet again i ask why is everyone else permitted to one shot a squishy except the no utility,no cc,no tankiness,pure damage dealing class? Is it cause they can also keep doing the same damage over and over? Cause i don't think that matters,a lot of Champs can do constant amounts of damage,one shot a squishy,and kill a tank I.E Ryze,Cass,Malzh,Taliyah,Yas,Yi,Fiora,Camille,Irelia,Jax(don't get me started on Jax) The offset being that mages require mana and skillshots hitting,and the rest are melee,but even those limits are sometimes barely felt since mana is literally not an issue past the first item or two,spells on champs like Ryze or Malzh are either point and click or in Ryzes case he has a CC to ensure his Q lands,and some melee champs have so many innate surviveability,and ways to mitigate damage and close the gap that sometimes it doesn't even matter if they're melee or not,especially if its not a 5v5 fight,i don't know why you're all acting like youre not bronze or silver and that there is no fighting except late game 5v5 team fights,and that no one gets caught out and that there's no 2v2 3v3 fights?

All in all i believe 90% of the boards players greatly overstates the power of the ADCs and how fast they come online especially if you're the one losing the lane,try playing some adc,you'll see how it feels to be the squishiest person on the team,for the last 8 years,and again don't start with the supports being there to protect you,if youre bitching about ADCs bitch about them,if youre bitching about ADCs AND Supports then don't exclude supports,and dont be amazed that you cant win a 1v2 or that a lane with 2 people has more influence that your solo lane.

Rant over

ThefrostyvikingMar 20, 201817 votes

I can understand your frustrations in how some marksmen really do deal too much damage much too fast, and some elements like static shiv dont make any sense for a DPS class to have either.

But......have you actually played as a ADC against a tank like say mundo/rammus/seju?

By the time you get to 3 items you are still pretty dang useless against them if they have 2 armor items, if one of those armor items is thornmail then you are pretty useless until 5 items for the most part since you kinda die trying to kill them, and your team will not fail to flame your for it at least 3-8 times per teamfight.

"OMG ADC so useless, no damage lul, go back to bronze."

At least, that is my experience playing Ashe & Caitlyn <.<

Then you finally hit 5-6 items and get both last whisper and botrk or something else, and suddenly you can deal some damage to the enemy tank,,,,,,by then your entire team flames you for not killing enemy Chogath as quickly as their Varus kills your own Darius who ontop of not being anywhere near as tanky as cho, has also built 2-3 damage items.

This is everyday marksman games, and if your toplane feeds their ass off playing aggro and dying to enemy toplane tank+assassin jungler then you might as well go AFK unless you smashed your own lane, for you are about to have some of the most miserable time possible pass.

Enemy frontline that you cant hurt and a assassin that deals so much damage that the support you have can't even react before you die....how very fun <.<

Then your own toplane flames you for not smashing your lane and your jungle for not ganking his lane while he had shoved enemy under tower since 6 minutes into the game.

Its not just marksmen that got a + to their scalings <.<

ElohavenMar 20, 20183 votes

Ashe - I agree with.

Caitlyn - no. She doesn't even need LDR to start chunking your HP with headshots.

ThefrostyvikingMar 20, 20185 votes

What? O_O

A cait headshot against anyone with ninja tabi+100 armor extra from something wont deal much more than....about 200 AD damage with 3 items assuming that she is just before getting LDR.

I´ve been there, on both ends, and being the cait without armor pen against a decent tank is absolute misery, hells i even managed to kill myself on a mundo´s thornmail once with 2 cleavers from him, after keeping him away from melee range while i shot him constantly as my support tried CC'ing him.

Well, he was 1 kill, 20 cs and a level over me but i still cannot find words to describe how useless i felt.....it was like trying to demolish a 60+ centimeters steel wall with a damn stone slegehammer.....hammer broke down long before the wall even got dented.

The gap between marksmen who can kill tanks and scale quickly and those who don't is not just large, it's huge, immense, massive or whatever turn of words you´d use to describe something "bigger than large".

PhantomPranksterMar 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I can understand your frustrations in how some marksmen really do deal too much damage much too fast, and some elements like static shiv dont make any sense for a DPS class to have either.

But......have you actually played as a ADC against a tank like say mundo/rammus/seju?

YEP

i quit primarily playing the other roles because ADCs are fucking busted now

you're telling me i have someone dedicated to keeping me alive so i can just turn my brain off and do damage?

SIGN ME UP

ThefrostyvikingMar 20, 20186 votes

........I must question, on which account did this scenario you described happen?

Because on my gold/plati/diamond elo normals i get raped over extremely hard if i stop paying attention to enemy support or jungle for even a minute, support or not.

And heaven forbid enemy midlane is a fed assassin or just someone that likes to roam at all.

PartholonianMar 20, 201810 votes

{quoted}

you're telling me i have someone dedicated to keeping me alive so i can just turn my brain off and do damage?

Some games you do. How many depends on elo. But if you're in a 0 frontline comp with a Brand or whatever who doesn't care about keeping you alive even if he had any tools to do that with, 80% of your team will agree it's still TOTALLY your fault you aren't performing like Doublelift.

Most players are low elo, therefore most ADCs complaining about how weak their class is are also low elo, and have non-supports (and their team in general not giving a crap about protecting them) in a substantial fraction or even majority of their games.

ADC is a very team dependent role.

Malix FarwinMar 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I can understand your frustrations in how some marksmen really do deal too much damage much too fast, and some elements like static shiv dont make any sense for a DPS class to have either.

But......have you actually played as a ADC against a tank like say mundo/rammus/seju?

By the time you get to 3 items you are still pretty dang useless against them if they have 2 armor items, if one of those armor items is thornmail then you are pretty useless until 5 items for the most part since you kinda die trying to kill them, and your team will not fail to flame your for it at least 3-8 times per teamfight.

"OMG ADC so useless, no damage lul, go back to bronze."

At least, that is my experience playing & <.<

Then you finally hit 5-6 items and get both last whisper and botrk or something else, and suddenly you can deal some damage to the enemy tank,,,,,,by then your entire team flames you for not killing enemy as quickly as their kills your own who ontop of not being anywhere near as tanky as cho, has also built 2-3 damage items.

This is everyday marksman games, and if your toplane feeds their ass off playing aggro and dying to enemy toplane tank+assassin jungler then you might as well go AFK unless you smashed your own lane, for you are about to have some of the most miserable time possible pass.

Enemy frontline that you cant hurt and a assassin that deals so much damage that the support you have can't even react before you die....how very fun <.<

Then your own toplane flames you for not smashing your lane and your jungle for not ganking his lane while he had shoved enemy under tower since 6 minutes into the game.

Its not just marksmen that got a + to their scalings <.<

mundo and seju melt with botrk and rammus melts from anyone who isn't AA focused.

ThefrostyvikingMar 23, 20181 votes

No tank "melts" from botrk alone, i have tested that several times, because the % damage of botrk counts as physical damage and is thus subject to armor reduction.

So early botrk rush on say Ashe doesnt actually help by much when it comes down to it unless the tank is only stacking health for some reason.

So it comes down to ADC like Ashe or Cait needing 2 crit items and a full armor pen one, as well as lifesteal in case of thornmail+ninja tabi+health on a tank.

Rammus melt? I am fairly sure he can raise his armor and give himself a thornmail passive whenever he wants, no AD will melt him, rather, i have tested and on Ashe, if you try to auto attack a rammus with his W up and a thornmail on him at 3 items you will in fact die before he does.

What you perceive as melting i´d guess is actually the rageblade+botrk users, the good ones are massively different from the bad ones.....like the difference in DPS between say Kog and Ashe is so wide there is no competition at all, same basically goes when comparing Ashe to Varus, she isnt even on the same charts.

Then we have a few close calls like Vayne who also demolish tanks in their own way.

But generally, marksmen like Ashe, cait or MF cant do shit against a tank until around 4 items if they are even.

Unironic SJWMar 20, 20188 votes

The core problem with the class is that it either has to be a bit overtuned, or it sucks to play for 95% of the players, because league of legends is about carrying, and ADCs, unless they're too strong, are the worst at carrying (because to get to the point where you can carry you have to be carried a lot of the time) so you either, from the beginning, not allow ranged AA dps to carry as hard as other stuff as a design choice, or you make the class overpowered to account for the fact that a lot of the games, you won't get a team that will allow you to influence the game.

It's a major quandary because it's impossible to please everyone. I'm sure people on boards would love to just tell the ADC players to eat shit, but by the same token, why not declare bruisers outdated and obsolete design and tell their players to fuck off?

haaaaaaalpMar 20, 20182 votes

Bruiser mains would have no problem with riot declaring their design outdated and obsolete if riot balanced bruisers to the same power level as marksmen. I honestly think no one would mind if riot just balanced bruiser power level to that of other archetypes and then just ignored them and worked on other classes.

Leaf on BushMar 20, 20189 votes

You do realize what happens when an ADC goes top? They always get destroyed, by tanks, assassins, and especially bruisers that combine tankiness with damage. How does that fit into your narrative of underpowered bruisers?

What happens if you play any ADC against Jax? Jax player moves his mouse over you and presses all buttons, you lose 2/3 of your health, now you can't farm anymore because he will flash on you soon. LUL