PSA: Resists and Penetration and how they affect damage

DeusVult··16 votes·2,335 views

Much has been made since the pre-season patch dropped about the disappearance of early armor/MR, the sudden increase of early damage, and tanks doing an overabundance of damage because of their high base damages. The thing is, these are all connected. And most people, even those who play the game a lot, don't realize it.

Now, the way damage in this game works, is it is divided into 3 categories; physical, magic and true damage. Armor reduces physical damage, MR (magic resist) reduces magic damage, and true damage cannot be reduced, it affects health directly. The more armor you have, the larger a % of physical damage is reduced, same for MR, but you start to see diminished returns after 100 armor/MR. In the same way, you start to see a larger investment in your damage the lower your targets armor/MR is, with enemies effectively receiving true damage when they have 0 armor/MR.

The graph below shows the relationship between resists and the amount of damage received: https://i.imgur.com/hT5EnfY.jpg

Now lets take a look at how this affects 2 of the roles that people see as the biggest offenders of dealing too much damage with minimal investment into it; tanks and lethality users.

Now, tanks for the most part have higher base damages on skills, but terrible scaling. This is to allow them to lane, and have relevant damage as the game goes on, but keeps them from wanting to build damage. Their damage is also attached to their skills. They have to use them to deal damage, possibly multiple rotations, and stay near you for the time between CDs. This is how they are meant to be. Now tanks in the early game go straight into defensive stats for items. Tabis, specters cowl, bramble vest, bambis cinder, etc. IMO resists early over health. Because the quicker you get your resists to 100, the further you reduce your opponents early damage. So at 15 minutes when that tank comes to fight you with 130 armor and 2000 health, your damage is greatly reduced against them, but you sitting on 38 MR take about 15-20% more damage from their whole rotation of skills.

It is a similar case for lethality users. Lethality is garbage vs tanks, as it directly reduces armor (think subtraction) 120-32=88 armor, so the tank still reduces all physical damage taken by about 45%. But against a fellow ADC or assassin, or a mage, lethality is great because none of these classes tend to build any armor at all, let alone early. So at level 9, lets say that Jhin has Youmuu's and Serated Dirk. That is 32 lethality, or 25.6 armor pen at level 9 (lethality scales per level). Now Jhin is attacking an Ezreal (who is incredibly popular atm) who has 54.6 armor at level 9. So against Jhin, Ezreal only has 29 armor. So he only reduces Jhins damage by 20%. All of Jhins damage.

Now if Ezreal purchased an early Tabis, he increases his armor by 30. So at level 9, ezreal would have 84.6 armor, 59 against Jhin's damage. So he would reduce Jhins damage by 35%. That is a 15% decrease in Jhins overall damage. If ezreal buys another cloth armor for only 300g, (15 armor) and sit on it for GA or sells it later, he reduces Jhins damage by about 42%. A further 7% than just having tabis.

TL-DR: While damage overall is too high atm, tanks will deal "high" damage to targets who refuse to buy MR, and lethality users deal "tons" of damage to targets who don't build armor. If against a lethality user, buying 45 armor for 1400g effectively counters their entire itemization, if against a mage or a tank, buying a negatron cloak early will reduce their damage, especially since tanks don't build damage to counter your purchase. Remember, damage wins you games, but resists and defensive play get you out of lane

21 Comments

Lord Phazanor 6 votes

Are you telling me that after Darius kills me 3 times as a toplaner and finished an armor item, I should stop building lethality and get armor too?
Next you're gonna tell me that supports should rush sighstone?

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Unless they can shield*, then always buy ardent censor.

Ralanr1 votes

I’d argue health actually because armor does nothing to his ult.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

{quoted}

I’d argue health actually because armor does nothing to his ult.

And since his ult is more than half of his damage in everygame, it's better to itemize against it than against all of his abilities plus autos...
Most armor items give health anyways.

Backup4now3 votes

but you start to see diminished returns after 100 armor/MR.

Ohhhh boy. It's one of these posts that believes reducing armor from 20->0 is more effective than 300->280 because the change in the % value is larger, despite that being an inherently misleading concept due to there not actually being diminishing returns from gaining armor. If % reduction scaled linearly, the effective health would scale to infinity very rapidly, which is why huge % damage reduction in abilities is so damn powerful.

The real reason it's so strong against squishies is that most kills rely on burst patterns (yes, even adc vs adc) that can push their attack patterns into the 100-0 range instead of 100-30 with just a little flat armor pen.

Sp33d Zer03 votes

{quoted}

Ohhhh boy. It's one of these posts that believes reducing armor from 20->0 is more effective than 300->280 because the change in the % value is larger, despite that being an inherently misleading concept due to there not actually being diminishing returns from gaining armor.

But that's exactly how that works. Granted, you start seeing diminishing returns in armor at ALL levels. 5 armor from 0-5 is more reduction than from 5-10 or 10-15. That's also why tabi and such are so great vs lethality. Tabi does not give you any health, but that extra 30 armor means you still get 10-20% damage reduction that you would otherwise lose.

Why do you think people don't just blindly build health vs lethality? Because small amounts of armor is better than small amounts of health vs lethality, where as small amounts of health mean more than small amounts of armor at high armor values.

Backup4now1 votes

In response to diminishing returns: just because the number next to the % symbol is smaller, doesn't mean you're getting "diminishing returns." I'll post this, something I posted a long time ago, which is quite relevant: 100 hp 0% dr = 100 ehp = 0 armor 100 hp 10%dr= 111 ehp = 11 armor 100 hp 20%dr= 125 ehp = 25 armor 100 hp 30%dr= 142 ehp = 42 armor 100 hp 40%dr= 166 ehp = 66 armor 100 hp 50%dr= 200 ehp = 100 armor 100 hp 60%dr= 250 ehp = 150 armor 100 hp 70%dr= 333 ehp = 233 armor 100 hp 80%dr= 500 ehp = 400 armor 100 hp 90%dr= 1000 ehp = 900 armor 100 hp 95%dr= 2000 ehp = 1900 armor 100 hp 99%dr= 10000 ehp = 9900 armor 100 hp 99.9%dr= 100000 ehp = 99900 armor 100 hp 100%dr= INFINITY ehp = INFINITY armor

There's a very good reason that the % value doesn't go up as fast as your armor value. If it did, you could reach invulnerability. As it is, 1 armor = 1% more effective hp. Again, the reason stacking armor works against lethality is because its users have combo or burst patterns, and getting armor is a better way of increasing ehp than just health. Getting enough to not die to a burst pattern is essential.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

Ohhhh boy. It's one of these posts that believes reducing armor from 20->0 is more effective than 300->280 because the change in the % value is larger, despite that being an inherently misleading concept due to there not actually being diminishing returns from gaining armor. If % reduction scaled linearly, the effective health would scale to infinity very rapidly, which is why huge % damage reduction in abilities is so damn powerful.

The real reason it's so strong against squishies is that most kills rely on burst patterns (yes, even adc vs adc) that can push their attack patterns into the 100-0 range instead of 100-30 with just a little flat armor pen.

Are you trolling or actually that oblivious to simple mathematics?

Armor's formula is : Damage inflicted = premitigation damage / (1 + resist / 100)

Meaning reducing armor from 20 to 0 is amplifying damage by 1.2/1 (aka 20% damage amplification)

And from 300 to 280 is amplifying it by 3/2.8 = 1.0714 (aka around 7% damage amplification)

Rand0mH3r0X3 votes

Glass Cannon builds are more of a risk-reward.

Instead of relying on runes for resistances, players have to make conscience decisions in game for itemization.

I still prefer the old Rune system.

Also Armor and Magic Resist are calculated differently.

DeusVult1 votes

Armor and magic resist damage reduction are calculated in the exact same way...

TehNACHO3 votes

but you start to see diminished returns after 100 armor/MR

Wait what

NO. NO. We've been over this too many times, I will not let this revive.

There's this concept known as Effective HP, which is where you multiply your HP by (100+Armor or MR)/100. You can double check with the wiki, it's basically how armor or magic resist reduces damage but inverted. If I could run you through for example:

2000 HP*(100+0 Armor)/100=2000 EHP 2000 HP*(100+100 Armor)/100=4000 EHP 2000 HP*(100+200 Armor)/100=6000 EHP

And so on.

Notice how between 0 to 100 armor, I add 100 armor and my effective health doubled. Now form 100 to 200 armor, I add 100 armor and my effective health only went up x1.5. Diminishing returns right?

Wrong

Each 100 armor is another multiple of my actual HP. What this means is that every point of armor I invest in is worth the exact same amount of health as the point before it and after it. In this particular example, 100 armor=2000 EHP, no matter if I start at 0 armor or 1000 armor.

There is no diminshing returns. Only misinformation. That you're spreading. After the Forums and the Boards had to kill. Don't bring this back again.

Here is a post I made on the matter a long time ago.

DeusVult1 votes

But this is false, and the formula used to find "effective health" is incredibly simplified

Armor and MR do have diminishing returns the more you have past 100, and have exponential returns the closer to 0 you are.

You claim that my formula and claims are wrong, when effective health is wrong.

TehNACHO1 votes

I claim? No I'm backing it up with evidence and other people's writing, you're the only one claiming and asserting with wrong information.

TehNACHO2 votes

Here is a snippet from the League of Legends wiki on Armor

"Every point of armor requires a unit to take 1% more of its maximum health in physical damage to be killed. This is called effective health:" "What this means: by definition, armor does not have diminishing returns in regard of effective hitpoints, because each point increases the unit's effective health against physical damage by 1% of its current actual health whether the unit has 10 armor or 1000 armor."

PLEASE take down your diminishing return comment. It is spreading misinformation on the matter.

TehNACHO2 votes

A much wordier and mathier topic on whether or not Armor and MR have diminishing returns

I implore you to learn it from the angle not from how damage is reduced, which is a number's game I'm more than willing to hash out, but from Effective Health.

TehNACHO2 votes

Let me math you a reason why your reduction side thinking is still off.

Let's say I hit Ezreal really hard for 2000 physical damage, and Ezreal has exactly 2000 HP and 0 Armor for...some reason. Ezreal dies in one strike.

Now Ezreal sees me dealing physical damage and builds 100 Armor so as not to die. 100 armor=50% damage reduction. My attack only deals 1000 damage to Ezreal now...Ezreal dies in 2 shots.

Ezreal's unsatisfied in dying in 2 shots so he opts for another 100 Armor, 200 total. This means he now has a 66.6% damage reduction.

BUT WAIT. WHEN EZREAL WENT FROM 0 TO 100 ARMOR, HE GOT 50% DAMAGE REDUCTION. NOW FROM 100 ARMOR TO 200, HE ONLY WENT UP BY 16.6% DAMAGE REDUCTION.

Well let's run the numbers then. At 66.6% damage reduction I can only hit Ezreal for about 666.6 damage per strike. Ignoring the infinitesimally small decimal, I kill Ezreal in exactly 3 strikes.

Odd isn't it? It looks like there's a diminishing return in terms of % reduction, but for the exact same 100 armor, Ezreal survives one more life threatening shot.

300 Armor. 75% damage reduction. 4 shots

500 Armor. 83.3% damage reduction. 6 shots.

1000 Armor. 90.9% damage reduction. 11 shots.

Where are the diminishing returns going, such that I can add the same 100 armor and have Ezreal survive another 1 whole shot?

EkyonKun1 votes

{quoted}

Let me math you a reason why your reduction side thinking is still off.

Let's say I hit Ezreal really hard for 2000 physical damage, and Ezreal has exactly 2000 HP and 0 Armor for...some reason. Ezreal dies in one strike.

Now Ezreal sees me dealing physical damage and builds 100 Armor so as not to die. 100 armor=50% damage reduction. My attack only deals 1000 damage to Ezreal now...Ezreal dies in 2 shots.

Ezreal's unsatisfied in dying in 2 shots so he opts for another 100 Armor, 200 total. This means he now has a 66.6% damage reduction.

BUT WAIT. WHEN EZREAL WENT FROM 0 TO 100 ARMOR, HE GOT 50% DAMAGE REDUCTION. NOW FROM 100 ARMOR TO 200, HE ONLY WENT UP BY 16.6% DAMAGE REDUCTION.

Well let's run the numbers then. At 66.6% damage reduction I can only hit Ezreal for about 666.6 damage per strike. Ignoring the infinitesimally small decimal, I kill Ezreal in exactly 3 strikes.

Odd isn't it? It looks like there's a diminishing return in terms of % reduction, but for the exact same 100 armor, Ezreal survives one more life threatening shot.

300 Armor. 75% damage reduction. 4 shots

500 Armor. 83.3% damage reduction. 6 shots.

1000 Armor. 90.9% damage reduction. 11 shots.

Where are the diminishing returns going, such that I can add the same 100 armor and have Ezreal survive another 1 whole shot?

There really aren't diminishing returns. Each 1 Armor/MR adds 1% more effective HP against that specific damage type.

(1,000 HP + 0 Armor = 1,000 Physical HP) (5,000 HP + 200 Armor = 15,000 Physical HP) (2,000 HP + 900 Armor = 20,000 Physical HP) etc.

Effective Health = Total Health * (100 + Resistance - Penetration) / 100

EDIT: Didn't really check the comments before posting...but I'll leave the math up for everyone to see regardless.

Red Wreckage1 votes

"This is to allow them to lane"

By allowing them to lane, do you mean do whatever the fk they want without any risk at all? they have no issues farming, poke the shit outta enemy laner if he tries to farm, easy hard cc for successful ganks, and durable enough to outdamage enemy laner in every trade wihtout a notch in HP bar.

tanks should tank, not burst half health bar every 2 ability rotation early game, if enemy laner isn't also a tank

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Behold the principle of diminishing returns.

Reformedfindlay1 votes

resistances do not have diminishing returns, the EHP gain is quite linear.

Stop being a clown

hoyohai1 votes

DT Ryze. Now what? He's got physical and magical damage. >:)

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