What do masteries (not just keystones) actually provide outside of balance issues?

WoonStruck·Jan 24, 2017·4 votes·550 views

Runes are a much more balanced system. Small boosts that you can tweak to fit your playstyle, but don't really push anything or anyone over the edge.

Yeah, they're boring stat-boosts, but they don't ruin the game and haven't really ever upset balance in any way.

Masteries, meanwhile, have always caused balance issues in League, even before Riot was over-tuning them, but ESPECIALLY during seasons 6 and 7.

#Can we just remove masteries at this point?

I honestly haven't seen them add anything to the game outside of issues in the past 5 seasons.

Try to argue otherwise.

26 Comments

Big LincolnJan 24, 20173 votes

I think some keystones would translate well to items and should be

but no more mastery pls

RalanrJan 24, 20172 votes

You could argue the same with items.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20174 votes

Items are necessary to give gold agency over the game. Its also pretty clear that items do good in League.

Masteries are nowhere near the same as items. They are intrinsic stat boosts that cause tons of issues every season. They favor some champions far, far more than others too, especially with the introduction of keystones.

RalanrJan 24, 20171 votes

So basically items are only good because of currency?

Perhaps you could explain that better because clearly I'm not getting it. I know that games can work without items or masteries.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20174 votes

Games can work without items, yeah, but League isn't that kind of game.

Without items, League becomes a very, very different game.

Without Masteries, league remains the same game with fewer balance issues.

Masteries are an issue because they are intrinsic, provide boosts on par with itemization, and make one champion a near-universally better choice than another in their class simply because they utilize the masteries+keystone better.

RebonackJan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Items are necessary to give gold agency over the game. Its also pretty clear that items do good in League.

Masteries are nowhere near the same as items. They are intrinsic stat boosts that cause tons of issues every season. They favor some champions far, far more than others too, especially with the introduction of keystones.

Use gold to directly upgrade components of your kit in the shop. It would have to be individualized for every champ, but it would probably be a more balanced system in the end since it would completely remove unintended item interactions.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

Doesn't change the argument that masteries are nowhere near the same as items as far as importance to LoL.

Also, we both know Riot would be way too lazy to implement a system like that.

Runes on the other hand, can simply be removed and balance would be in a much, much better place with only small adjustments being required to balance the roster.

RebonackJan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't change the argument that masteries are nowhere near the same as items as far as importance to LoL.

Also, we both know Riot would be way too lazy to implement a system like that.

Runes on the other hand, can simply be removed and balance would be in a much, much better place with only small adjustments being required to balance the roster.

I was mostly responding to the 'well what do we do with gold, then?' side of things.

The common problem that Masteries and Items share is that they're both a one size fits all system. As a result, there will always be outliers and abusers of both.

But yeah, giving items the axe and creating 3-4 'items' for all five abilities for every champ in the game would be a monumental task. Maybe if Riot had started with a system like that. But now? Oof.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

Just adjusting abilities makes the game a nuclear arms race; hardly any better than it is now.

You'd be better off with a system like Paragon's for what you're looking at.

Items can be used to bolster strengths and mitigate weaknesses.

Masteries just give straight boosts to damage/defense in any given scenario. They're much closer to the 'one size fits all' analogy because you don't have another choice for most things.

Its not like items or the rune system where you have 5+ or viable choices in each slot for any given champion.

RebonackJan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Just adjusting abilities makes the game a nuclear arms race; hardly any better than it is now.

You'd be better off with a system like Paragon's for what you're looking at.

Items can be used to bolster strengths and mitigate weaknesses.

Masteries just give straight boosts to damage/defense in any given scenario. They're much closer to the 'one size fits all' analogy because you don't have another choice for most things.

Its not like items or the rune system where you have 5+ or viable choices in each slot for any given champion.

This is why I'm in favor of axing the trees completely and having a pile of Masteries that you pick somewhere between one and three from. If you only got one Mastery and had 30ish to choose from, the situation would be quite a bit more in line with choosing an item build. Sure, not all options would be great on everyone. But chances are you would have at least 10ish options that are situationally attractive.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

To be honest though, I don't think any mastery should directly add to damage or defense, even with a system like that.

They should focus on scaling/utility or provide some help for laning/trade recovery without enabling early all-ins, as that cheapens gameplay overall.

sobi999Jan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You could argue the same with items.

So your point is that they should include masteries, even if they cause unbalance issues, just because items also do the same? Does somebody actually want things to get balanced or not?

Ad Vitam AeternaJan 24, 20172 votes

Masteries make the game more fun by allowing us to feel like we are customizing our character and getting an edge in one way or another. They may cause balance issues, but thats why Riot patches every 2 weeks, and having more stuff to fuck around with keeps the game constantly fresh. There are plenty of other games out there, every year getting better and better because of technological advances; Riot can't afford to let the game get dull and risk losing a chunk of the player base.

SchmidttyGamesJan 24, 20172 votes

Masteries, in theory, provide greater personal customization. It allows different players to set up in different ways.

In reality, due to the fact that there are clearly "superior" masteries on almost every tier in every branch, it basically becomes a necessity to have similar builds to what "works", curtailing any creative processes it would have otherwise created.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

Basically.

And those 'necessities' are much better on some champions than others, creating a significant balance offset.

JbelsJan 24, 20171 votes

Yeah I don't know man, HoTS doesn't have any items but they get along pretty well. I guess it could be argued that the customization is tailored to each individual, and not the entire class the individual resides in

TheHappyReaperzJan 24, 20171 votes

What issues have masteries added to the game? And what is with the recent hate for them?

Gameplay wise, masteries contribute quite a bit. They add a nice bit of variety to the game, and each keystone provides a pretty unique addition to how you play. People argue that masteries just get simplified into what is the best, period. While that is true for some champions, other champs have various mastery builds that reinforce different types of gameplay.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20173 votes

Masteries don't reinforce certain types of gameplay. Gameplay remains the same on almost any champion no matter which mastery you take.

Masteries could be removed and replaced solely with Keystones and it would invalidate your entire argument.

However, Keystones create more balance issues and cater to very specific champions much more than others, leading to half the roster being borderline useless in comparison to the rest, thus deserve to be removed more than masteries.

TheHappyReaperzJan 24, 20171 votes

Masteries besides keystone have a massive impact on your gameplay. For example, Yorick. If you want to focus more on splitpushing, you can take Offensive masteries to get bonus AS, as well as LS/SV for more sustain in lane. If you want to constantly stay in lane, you can take Resolve masteries granting you increased healing. However, taking these reduces your Maiden's damage, and can lower your kill potential. Another route you can go is put some points in Cunning, reducing your damage or tankiness, but gaining increased roaming potential, better gold generation, or damage against lower targets. In a hard matchup? Try a combination of Resolve and Cunnning masteries, helping your sustain and gold generation, to help keep you from falling behind.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

No.

For example, on Yorick you'd, without exception, go 12/0/18.

A better example would be someone like Vlad. Except...going 12/0/18 is complete shit on him, despite catering to a certain playstyle. In fact, 12/18/0 grants him more sustain. Even 0/18/12 offers less, despite the supposed reasons for doing so being quite clear.

18/12/0 offers less damage than 12/18/0 and gives up stormraider's.

So...you're pretty much stuck with 12/18/0 despite Vlad being one of the most versatile mastery users.

Another example could be Darius. You can use any tree and find moderate success...or you could be good at the game and take Stormraider's. You're stat-checking either way, so you want to be able to actually get into the situations where you stat check as opposed to stat check harder.

#The only time masteries are a significant choice is when you're deciding if you want to be useful all game or useful because you cheesed your lane.

Masteries don't affect gameplay, really. They just increase your numbers, much like runes.

The difference is that runes are healthy stat increases, while masteries actually fuck up the game's balance.

The game would be easier to balance without either, but runes offer enough to make them worth keeping over masteries.

ZILLAGULAJan 24, 20171 votes

Masteries are pretty important to keep especially for newer players.

It gives your champion that personal "touch" that you feel YOU created.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

Strange, because Runes do this much more and without the glaring issues that Masteries provide.

If they were removed, Masteries would probably be replaced by a new system, possibly even an expanded Rune system with some way to avoid additional IP burden on newer players.

TyrekGoldenspearJan 24, 20171 votes

Question.

Do teir 1 masteries cause an issue? How about teir 2?

Lesser masteries don't cause an issue. Arguably only keystones and higher teir masteries do.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

Actually, lower masteries are a large portion of the issue.

You get nearly 20% potential increased damage among the first 12 points of Ferocity/Cunning.

Its the upper-tier masteries that aren't warping the game, barring Keystones of course.

TyrekGoldenspearJan 24, 20171 votes

I will assume you mean Assassin, Merciless, DES, Sorcery, and Bounty Hunter?

I have more thoughts but on mobile right now.

WoonStruckJan 24, 20171 votes

Yeah. Keep in mind they're multiplicative, not additive. This means items like Abyssal and Vlad's ult multiply it all even further.

Part of the reason I advocate Abyssal>SV on Vlad in almost all cases. 42% bonus damage total, as opposed to 29% without, is, frankly, stupid, especially when you consider that Cunning's multipliers aren't very reliable.

Also you forgot Battle Trance, although it, DES, and Bounty Hunter cannot be utilized together, obviously.