Why are AD Assassins doomed to be bad?

Get Ogre Here··2 votes·1,249 views

Riot seems to love AP assassins a lot more than AD assassins for some reason.

Let's take a look at 3 AP assassins: Akali Fizz Katarina

And we'll look at 3 AD assassins: Talon Zed Rengar

Now my complains aren't gonna only be "Ohh the enemy just needs to build a ninja tabi to make AD assassins useless!" because the damage isn't the problem for the most part. The problem is the AP champs have more versatile kits that are just more powerful overall.

Let's compare... AD/AP

Decent dashes- AP wins because all 3 have pretty good ranged dashes, and Fizz's, which is tied with Talon's in range, can be made so much better with his E so he doesn't take damage for dashing into an enemy, and Rengar relies on bushes for his. The 3 AP only need a champ/minion.

Invulnerability- AP wins because both sides have 1 invulnerability (if you don't count Akali's which almost is one) which are Fizz and Zed. The difference is Fizz's has a lot more potential because it's on a much lower cooldown, he can control where he ends up, and it has the potential to be longer.

Roams- This is one where AD wins, but not by a lot. Talon and Rengar both have good roaming power, with their E/R respectively, but Zed has about asm much roaming power as the AP's. The difference is when they get to the lane they're roaming to, the AP's can use their generally better dashes to close the gap and make the gank successful more easily, something that Talon especially cannot do.

Snowball- AP's, 100%. I mentioned this isn't only gonna be a ninja tabi OP thread but it deserves to be mentioned. People building armor against the AD's feels so much worse than building MR against the AP's. Zed and Talon's win rates fall off a cliff around the 30-35 minute marks according to champion.gg because when people stack armor you can do nothing. Fizz and Akali's win rates have a small dip towards the end of the game, but nothing like the AD's. This may be because AP has Mejai's and AD has nothing like that to help them snowball.

These are the 4 categories that I feel make a good assassin, and how the AD assassins compare to the AP assassins in my opinion.

TL;DR: AP assassins are generally much better at being assassins then AD assassins, and the AD's need some love.

15 Comments

Hekinokurohyou7 votes

You literally only compared them on criteria that made your point lol. You can just as easily go: ad assassins are so busted. Stealth - AD wins, rengar can go invisi for so long and talons main dmg comes from a stealth move. Life steal - AD wins, all these champions can buy life steal and that keeps them in the fight so much longer. Only akali kind of competes cause her built in gimmick is intrinsic life steal Access to penetration - AD wins, armor pen is so much easier to get and in most of these champions main build path.

Edit: All champions are good at some things and suck at others. you cant really lump them together like that. hell, you can play akali full ad if you want to.

HP Crookshanks4 votes

Why do you compare only 6 champions? AP assassins aren't stong. (except for Fizz who needs nerfs.) There is also no specific AP assassin item. But AD's have item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 .

Cyrosi2 votes

How is Zed weak? Everytime I've seen Zed middle he's almost always won the lane. Whereas I've seen a relatively even number of win/losses from people like Katarina. I don't think AD vs AP is a real problem. I think it's just that individual heroes have different places and pickrates in every meta. For example, I almost never see Master Yi and I have a fairly low MMR.

webstar19951 votes

Fizz is the best out of those champs and counters Zed/Talon. Other than that the AD and AP assassins are pretty equal. Also only Rengar really gets hurt from the other team building Ninja Tabi. Talon does not rely on basics and neither does Zed. Yes, getting basics in in between abilities does a lot more damage, you are acting like it makes them useless. Locket and Knight's Vow are the best items vs assassins, but they work vs AD or AP. This is a shitpost. Are you a Zed main that is still crying about the Duskblade nerfs?

Voltok1 votes

<Removed> You realize Riot's always favored AD champs over AP historically over the 8 seasons right? Mages get legit 1 patch maybe... MAYBE per season. Even with that patch tank meta or adc in non-adc roles end up being favored. There was a fucking point when Graves was the highest winrate in ALL FIVE ROLES, and the traditional picks were LOWEST winrate. Zed/Yasuo have been PERMABANNED SINCE RELEASE. If this shit doesn't wake you up I don't know what will.

Also if a Mage and an AD mid were to both burn their summoner spells and cooldowns, the AD mid would still have lifesteal, att speed, or stronger auto attacks to finish the mage with 40 ad autos off.

Are you not aware of cheap lethality item stacking and the fact that duskblade went completely ignored of how busted it was for MONTHS??? Legit anyone who builds this fucking item becomes a 1-shot vision clearing ad assassin.

Hell mages have always suffered when it came to the armguard vs hexdrinker matchup, riot FINALLY gave us a stopwatch to deal with zed cancer at level 6.

HP Crookshanks2 votes

{quoted}

<Removed> You realize Riot's always favored AD champs over AP historically over the 8 seasons right? Mages get legit 1 patch maybe... MAYBE per season. Even with that patch tank meta or adc in non-adc roles end up being favored. There was a fucking point when Graves was the highest winrate in ALL FIVE ROLES, and the traditional picks were LOWEST winrate. Zed/Yasuo have been PERMABANNED SINCE RELEASE. If this shit doesn't wake you up I don't know what will.

Also if a Mage and an AD mid were to both burn their summoner spells and cooldowns, the AD mid would still have lifesteal, att speed, or stronger auto attacks to finish the mage with 40 ad autos off.

Are you not aware of cheap lethality item stacking and the fact that duskblade went completely ignored of how busted it was for MONTHS??? Legit anyone who builds this fucking item becomes a 1-shot vision clearing ad assassin.

Hell mages have always suffered when it came to the armguard vs hexdrinker matchup, riot FINALLY gave us a stopwatch to deal with zed cancer at level 6.

I agree. Riot always favors AD over AP. AD's are too much reliable they have everything. Especially item 3155 is cancerous.

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Voltok1 votes

Prove to me I'm wrong then <Removed>? Go ahead, bring up your case if you think it's that funny.

ZedUsanGovos2 votes

Take a look at those LCK, and LCS, and high elo games! Golly gee, all these mages must be played for some reason. Wow, could it be that they've been made better utility-wise and overall game-wise than most AD Assassins? wOw. OH wOWWOWOWOW you'RE teLlIng Me tHaT mOSt mAgeS caN ShuT dOwn ZeD aNd TaLoN??? wOwWoWoWowOwOw

Voltok1 votes

"Me tHaT mOSt mAgeS caN ShuT dOwn ZeD aNd TaLoN??? wOwWoWoWowOwOw"

That's why Zed/Yasuo have been permanently banned since their release. How often do you see mage bans? Like only recently Swain is banned because of his rework. Zed and Yasuo are STILL most commonly banned. <Removed>

ChangeMyMind

ZedUsanGovos1 votes

[deleted]

Voltok1 votes

lol if reporting helps you sleep at night I honestly don't give a rats ass. Threaten me with a good time :^)

#"Zed and Yasuo are banned because people are <Removed> to learn how to beat them."

Also incorrect. They're banned because even if they go 0-10 they can still 100 to 0 an adc or non-tank support with the current dirt-cheap lethality items. Also Zed ulti is still not QSS-able. Also the moment they hit 6 they can cheese an easy kill botlane if the botlane is randoms (most of the time they are and they're heavy as fuck to carry) which makes it a super easy/cheesy pick in Solo/Duo queue.

#"People are <Removed> to build armor."

LOL people do buy armor, you realize the current lethality situation completely negates that right? Also Black Cleaver completely counters full armor stacking as well. Jokes for days honestly.

#" Nothing where you have to watch out for shadows"

You realize he can actually put this shadow in POINTBLANK range right on top of you? People don't ban Zed because of lack of armor. They ban him because of his 1rst back outsustain. In higher elo a Zed will spam his energy bar while Mages with mana have to go back for mana eventually either from being outpushed or force-trading after Zed burns his shadow. That combined with a really early Hexdrinker and Duskblade pretty much makes him hard to kill early. Also his ulti isn't even QSS'able anymore so the moment he goes botlane with ulti lvl 6 while botlane is level 5 it's gonna be hard to stop him from cheesing an ignite ulti on either the support or adc with no items because let's face it, stopwatch from runes won't be usable until 10minutes, and no adc actually buys that 1rst item unless they intentionally want to fall behind.

#" <Removed> to not pick Kassadin into Zed. "

I mean do I even have to explain myself here? LOL just wow. Kassadin's kit is meant to be Anti-Mage. His whole kit is purely based on negating Magic damage. Picking Kassadin purely just to use 1 jump ability vs Zed is probably the dumbest thing you've proposed on this forums.

#"<Removed> to not punish Zed after he uses his shadow"

You tell me how that works out when an experienced Zed player is aware of his enemy trying to punish him after burning shadow. They immediately ulti and ignite full ham on you when you try to do that. Doesn't even matter if you try to coordinate your jungler to come and help with his ulti commitment, chances are he's going to escape, just like how Dopa has been doing for the past few seasons.

#" Yasuo after he uses his wind wall."

A good yasuo usually falls back after burning wall. Honestly all your points would be valid in bronze elo. My points are based on the players who actually know Zed/Yasuo inside and out and know their kill potentials and danger potentials. Like honestly at this point I'm not even worried about Zed/Yasuo for my own matchups, I'm worried about my retarded randoms not being able to handle them. That's why Zed/Yasuo are permabanned usually. Even if you don't have a hard time destroying them in lane, they can still pick off your retarded randoms in Solo/Duo and come back with dirt-cheap lethality stacking, duskblade, hexdrinker, etc etc.

#ChangeMyMind

Infernape1 votes

At least AD assassins have their own itemisation options compared to other AD champs. Unlike AP assassins that mostly build the same items as mages outside of things like Hextech Protobelt.

Voltok1 votes

https://rankedboost.com/mid-lane-tier-list/

I'm just gonna leave this here. 8.7 top midlane bans.

While it is true that Katarina and Fizz are on the ban list they're banned significantly LESS compared to the Zed and Yasuo who are the top 2 banned on this list. Zed and Yasuo have been the permanent ban since their release. I'm pretty sure almost no one bans Katarina or Fizz now unless they know for a fact that someone pre-picked those champs in lobby before a player dodged and reset the queue, or if it's in challenger where the players know eachother and ban strategically.

ModJikker1 votes

Hey guys,

I've done some editing of unnecessary insults/inflammatory comments in this thread. Let's remember to observe the Golden Rule when we post and be respectful of others even if they are not being respectful towards us.

If anyone has questions about these edits, please do not hesitate to come chat with us on the Moderator Discord or create a discussion on Discuss the Boards.

Thanks

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