I don't like the direction how people are comparing rengar and khazix now.

Craft Zeppelin·Dec 25, 2015·39 votes·2,767 views

Well I totally understand the needs of buffs for khazix. I mained him when he had a near 48% winrate (which is a good number for a assassin) and had memorable pentas and now think he is down the drain. But ya know, although they are rivals I totally disagree buffing khazix by making a slap off imitation of rengars kit. Such examples are making his W stun or snare, making him have longer invisible frames or making his Q spam faster. it's just going to end khazix becoming a mediocre rengar.

What part I think Khazix is superior to rengar and is the most fun part in his game play is, when you track down the isolated enemy jungler and kill him in his camps and make him a total pest. The isolation mechanic is what makes Khazix interesting but is also his weakness. And riot should revamp his kit to make it more relavant in his kit, since only one skill barely interacts with it. And I think we should start thinking how his kit could force the enemy to become isolated, rather than just adding massive numbers

56 Comments

LaçezDec 25, 20153 votes

Thing is if they touch Kha'zix he will become unbalanced as of now he kinda sucks since the isolation is necessary to assassinate targets how they should be. Being in a minion wave / team fight literally prevents this almost every time or at least slows down the process by a considerable amount, whereas our feline friend Rengar can point a finger at a squishy target they want dead and its almost as good as done.

With most assassins you're in and out dealing with the squishes and that's independent of whether there's a minion wave or not e.g fizz / talon.. its actually ridiculous ._. but Kha'zix lacks this, unless you snowballed so hard pre 20 minutes that a surr vote is guaranteed. With the mastery changes I would say its gone in Kha'zix's favour especially with thunderlord's, but he's kinda inferior to other assassins. Don't get me wrong I don't want some beast that obliterates any target without counter play, which is what Rengar basically is, but rather to reap what you sow in games so if I snowball hard I expect to carry hard, which is not what you get with Kha'zix but rather like Champs like Jax/Aatrox/Yasuo... etc.

BluePolarizerDec 26, 20153 votes

The tiamat nerf and the removal of purple smite hurt him bad.

The only way he will be good again is if his isolation radius was reduced and his W dealt increased damage to minions so he can in-battle waveclear for the isolation. Wouldn't hurt to have his passive interact with isolation either.

PennsDec 25, 20152 votes

How is Kha "down the drain" while precision, thunderlords, warrior and youmus exist and are all op?

WeatheredDec 25, 201513 votes

You have the right idea but wrong outcome. He is indeed "down the drain" currently but those items and masteries are why Riot is hesitant to buff him. With how versatile and different Kha'Zix's kit is, especially compared to Rengar's more linear and easier to balance kit, if he is buffed ever so slightly in the wrong way he becomes way to powerful. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Rengar is easy to play, but Kha is much more skill intesive when it comes to carefully planning isolation, double jumping, and using the multiple charges of stealth. The dedicated Kha mains know that if Kha is decent, he will be over powered for them. If he is in a bad position, he is now decent for them (in regards to high ELO play, I guess this goes for every champion).

Bottom line is that he is hard to balance and will most likely stay were he is or be tweaked VERY LITTLE over many patches.

PennsDec 25, 201515 votes

Rengars kit is easy to balance? How so? o.o Most people say Rengars kit is nearly impossible to balance because it is so different and overloaded + has stealth.

I only played Kha twice lately, but he felt really strong in those games, if not even a bit too strong because of those 2 masteries and because of how good that warrior+ youmus build is (which is why I dont understand https://i.gyazo.com/907886e8c4c74f64cb24b1ea5a1042c7.png lol) Because of that, when someone asks for Kha buffs I usually think to myself

{quoted}

https://i.gyazo.com/e3f9c905d19562b3821acb2546f8abfc.gif https://i.gyazo.com/c63ba4a00f693d614c050ed8a7bcccce.gif https://i.gyazo.com/e353f35423947f81e86e135f394ba6c2.png pls dont

Craft ZeppelinDec 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Rengars kit is easy to balance? How so? o.o Most people say Rengars kit is nearly impossible to balance because it is so different and overloaded + has stealth.

I only played Kha twice lately, but he felt really strong in those games, if not even a bit too strong because of those 2 masteries and because of how good that warrior+ youmus build is (which is why I dont understand https://i.gyazo.com/907886e8c4c74f64cb24b1ea5a1042c7.png lol) Because of that, when someone asks for Kha buffs I usually think to myself

those are some beautiful gifs....

WeatheredDec 26, 20151 votes

Alright. I'll say right now I'm S3 and most only play Kha opposed to Rengo. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but from what I've played with Rengo he is faily simple with how he works. He is useful mid/late with his ult up, otherwise not as much. He is good around bushes, and has a superior W to Kha. All of his things seem to be a matter of numbers. Maybe I'm wrong.

PennsDec 26, 20151 votes

He might be kind of simple to play, tho his kit is pretty "dynamic", but he definitely is a bitch to balance :s

Chaotic ReksDec 26, 20154 votes

both of those people are alone
kha has upgraded Q
he has , which is a solid item
both of those champions are squishy

qetzelDec 26, 20151 votes

To add to what others are saying, Kha is 3 levels ahead and the entire team has snowballed. If any non-tank/non-support failed to do a similar thing then I would be surprised.

PennsDec 26, 20151 votes

They might be able to do something similar, but you should also consider that those 2 gifs happened within 5-10 seconds, Khas burst has basically no cooldown (apart from thunderlords). Other champs (even when ahead) would at least need their ult to kill him with nearly 0 opportunity to react with something like Fiddle Q.

48983507DEL1Dec 26, 20151 votes

Rengar's kit isn't overloaded, just way too good at the 1 job it functions at doing. If he can't 1 shot people, he's worthless, and because of THAT he is difficult to balance. I suppose they could nerf the duration of his snare, but that's about it.

PennsDec 26, 20151 votes

He can fill many roles. Tank Rengar is pretty good, he can be an offtank with Titanic Hydra, he can be an assassin, he can probably even be good as AP jungler if an AP item happens to be op because he . That seems pretty overloaded..

48983507DEL1Dec 26, 20151 votes

First off, filling multiple roles doesn't mean he's overloaded, since he still has 1 idea in mind: killing the squishy backline.

Secondly, Tank Rengar isn't very good at all, considering you can pick almost any other tanky champion and be more useful than Rengar would with tank items. This is because he doesn't have a lot of crowd control and is mainly focused on dealing damage to specific targets.

Thirdly, if an AP item is overpowered, there are far better people to exploit it on, making Rengar a pretty weak "abuser" of the item.

PennsDec 26, 20151 votes

Filling multiple roles itself might not mean that, but the fact that he can fill all those roles because he has a heal based on missing HP (tank), a massive AD and attack speed (assassin/ bruiser) and a good armor and mr steroid (tank) as well as stealth (cancer) and a pretty unique (thus hard to balance) passive kind of does mean exactly that. I mean, he wasnt reworked and changed so often for no reason.

48983507DEL1Dec 26, 20152 votes

Like I said, you don't get nearly as much benefit playing Rengar as a tank in comparison to literally any other tanky champion; he doesn't deal any percentage based damage, his base numbers aren't all that great, he doesn't have reliable crowd control, and he's very immobile without his ultimate or a nearby brush. Just because he has a heal based on missing HP doesn't he as a champion is good in the role of a HP stacking champion.

There are really two general types of tanks: traditional tanks and proxy tanks.

Traditional tanks rely mainly on utility and crowd control to engage fights or peel for their carries; they scale well by stacking defensive stats, usually have gap closer tied to their crowd control, and are still effective when behind. Their fallback? They don't pack a lot of damage, are usually weak early game, and can't carry on their own. Think of Maokai or Sejuani.

Proxy tanks rely on high damage and heavy defenses to be able to kill their enemies without themselves taking a lot of damage; they scale well with defensive items because they have very high base damage and need to be unkillable, are usually strong early game, and are deadly if they reach the backline because of their near invincibility. Their fallback? They are highly immobile, lack crowd control, are kited easily, and don't do well when playing from behind. Think of Dr. Mundo or Darius.

Rengar is neither of these because he has more weaknesses than strengths; he doesn't pack a lot of damage, he doesn't have a lot of crowd control, he is highly immobile if he isn't near a brush, he doesn't play well from behind, he doesn't scale off of percentage based damage or with stacking HP, and his stealth isn't all that useful if he can't 1 shot an opponent. He's basically another Renekton, except Renekton isn't as easily countered in Top Lane and gets a MASSIVE HP boost from his ultimate.

PennsDec 26, 20151 votes

He doesnt have to be THE best tank, the thing is that its "good". "Good" enough to be viable, at least in times like cinderhulk top lane meta.

"Proxy tanks" are basically "bruisers" or "juggernauts", and Regnar can most certainly be a bruiser. He has enough damage to kill carries, not oneshot, but definitely kill pretty fast, and at the same time he can engage and stay alive with his Ws + tank Rengar plays better from behind. than full assassin Rengar.

And even IF hes not a "very good" tank in every meta, it can work well and his kit is overloaded.

48983507DEL1Dec 26, 20151 votes

It's not worth playing if there's much better champions for the job. I'm sure bruiser Zed and bruiser Talon would work just as well as bruiser Rengar, but that is barely functioning at all. The amount of time it would take him to kill a carry is enough time for that carry to reposition and have his/her teammates peel you off.

Also, just because he CAN function in that role doesn't mean his kit is overloaded. Aatrox can function as a bruiser, a tank, and possibly even as an assassin, but his kit is FAR from overloaded. Rengar has damage, a steroid, a heal, some armor/mr, a snare/slow, stealth, and a unique bush jumping mechanic.

Compared to all the recently released champions, this is pretty mediocre on the "overloaded" side. Look at champions like Lee Sin, Yasuo, Ekko, Illaoi, Thresh, Leblanc, Poppy, Rek'Sai, Skarner, and even Kha'Zix and you'll see what I mean.

PennsDec 26, 20151 votes

Bruiser assassins dont work because they really dont do damage, but Rengar isnt an assassin. And cinderhulk Rengar top was worth playing, it likely was the best Rengar build back then too.

So.. What does Yasuo have that makes him overloaded then? He has damage, a shield, a situational either melee or skillshot knock up, "situational" dashes, a wall and his ult...

48983507DEL1Dec 27, 20151 votes

Um no, he definitely is an assassin. I don't EVER remember Cinderhulk Rengar being popular at all.

And are you serious? Double crit chance, a shield he gets FOR WALKING AROUND, a spam heavy linear skillshot form of physical damage that can crit and HAS ITS COOLDOWN TIED TO ATTACK SPEED, a knockup as an assassin that is pretty easy to hit in lane, a wall that blocks every projectile in the game, a 0 cooldown gap closer, an ultimate with a high AD ratio, and 50% bonus armor penetration for 20 seconds THAT STACKS WITH LAST WHISPERER. All while having no mana/energy restrictions or fury mechanic of some sort. That's definitely not overloaded as shit.

PennsDec 27, 20151 votes

I know Yasuo is known as one of the most "overloaded" champs in the game, but so is Rengar.

Craft ZeppelinDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You have the right idea but wrong outcome. He is indeed "down the drain" currently but those items and masteries are why Riot is hesitant to buff him. With how versatile and different Kha'Zix's kit is, especially compared to Rengar's more linear and easier to balance kit, if he is buffed ever so slightly in the wrong way he becomes way to powerful. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Rengar is easy to play, but Kha is much more skill intesive when it comes to carefully planning isolation, double jumping, and using the multiple charges of stealth. The dedicated Kha mains know that if Kha is decent, he will be over powered for them. If he is in a bad position, he is now decent for them (in regards to high ELO play, I guess this goes for every champion).

Bottom line is that he is hard to balance and will most likely stay were he is or be tweaked VERY LITTLE over many patches.

I dont mean to sound stupid or something but...riot should really try something in the preseason then ya know if its that much of a risk

AkeneroDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You have the right idea but wrong outcome. He is indeed "down the drain" currently but those items and masteries are why Riot is hesitant to buff him. With how versatile and different Kha'Zix's kit is, especially compared to Rengar's more linear and easier to balance kit, if he is buffed ever so slightly in the wrong way he becomes way to powerful. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Rengar is easy to play, but Kha is much more skill intesive when it comes to carefully planning isolation, double jumping, and using the multiple charges of stealth. The dedicated Kha mains know that if Kha is decent, he will be over powered for them. If he is in a bad position, he is now decent for them (in regards to high ELO play, I guess this goes for every champion).

Bottom line is that he is hard to balance and will most likely stay were he is or be tweaked VERY LITTLE over many patches.

Wat Rengar's versatility is bullshit, kiting, burst, initiation, he can do anything offensive, and is tankier than kha!

Kha's design has never been healthy, but Rengar's has never been balanced.

Craft ZeppelinDec 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

How is Kha "down the drain" while precision, thunderlords, warrior and youmus exist and are all op?

He is a assassin somehow loaded with utility without purpose. He needs isolation to do damage, but likes teamfights to get reset jumps. And to top it he lacks the tankyness or damage to complete his job. He has too much utility that are not directed because the purpose was removed of the nerfs.

PennsDec 25, 20153 votes

I dont think he really "likes teamfights", hes just good at cleaning up low hp targets.

elon wątrobaDec 26, 20151 votes

His e is more about escaping after successful assassination.

Pierce The VealDec 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

How is Kha "down the drain" while precision, thunderlords, warrior and youmus exist and are all op?

OP masteries and items don't make UP champions suddenly strong.

They make other champions even stronger.

PennsDec 25, 20151 votes

Well, they do both :p

AbyssphereDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, they do both :p

The point is that someone can have great itemisation and great masteries and even a very fitting meta and still be bad. They have to be very undertuned for that to be the case, but that seems like Kha's situation. That's why Riot is buffing him despite the masteries and items available to him being great.

Don't forget they are nerfing the flat pen mastery.

PennsDec 25, 20151 votes

But I dont think he is undertuned at all and if he does get buffed he will probably just dominate hard again.

Sozan5Dec 26, 20151 votes

Of course they can make UP champions strong, or even broken. Just look back at feral flare WW.

It all depends on how well it synergizes with the champions kit. That said... I don't know the exact scenario with Kha, as I don't play him at all (and I haven't played with him long enough to know).

Pierce The VealDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Of course they can make UP champions strong, or even broken. Just look back at feral flare WW.

It all depends on how well it synergizes with the champions kit. That said... I don't know the exact scenario with Kha, as I don't play him at all (and I haven't played with him long enough to know).

All that was mentioned were just damage sticks. They don't particularly synergize with kha in any way other than give him more damage. There are a lot of other champions that use Youmuu's, warrior, and thunderlord's better than kha.

A Miss FortuneDec 26, 20152 votes

I think It's terrible to compare Kha'zix to Rengar as Rengar does show major balance and design flaws in his entire kit but at the same time I don't think Kha'zix will ever be a legitimate pick when Rengar still exists. I just haven't seen an actual reason to pick Kha'zix over Rengar aside from Kha'zix being able to cleanup teamfights really well. Rengar has everything better; damage, clearing, sustain, tankiness, crowd control.

4th3t0sDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6yh9iavX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-26T00:17:09.788+0000)

I think It's terrible to compare Kha'zix to Rengar as Rengar does show major balance and design flaws in his entire kit but at the same time I don't think Kha'zix will ever be a legitimate pick when Rengar still exists. I just haven't seen an actual reason to pick Kha'zix over Rengar aside from Kha'zix being able to cleanup teamfights really well. Rengar has everything better; damage, clearing, sustain, tankiness, crowd control.

That's the thing though, Rengar is more of a true assassin in being able to delete a high-priority target and then get the hell out of dodge; Kha, on the other hand, seems designed more as a cleanup-type assassin; his leap reset gimmick suggests this. This seems to be more of an identity problem rather than gameplay at this point.

A Miss FortuneDec 26, 20151 votes

It's more than a gameplay problem. "Cleanup Crew" isn't a proper identity.

Hotlin3 FlingDec 26, 20151 votes

Katarina MasterYi Twitch You called?

AnidanDec 26, 20151 votes

That's not really the entirety of Yi's or Twitch's identity though. They have a fair bit more going for them than 'cleanup crew,' enough that it's still viable to say 'Cleanup Crew' isn't a proper identity.

iamleburkDec 26, 20151 votes

Well the "get the hell out" part is pretty much rengar's weakness, he doesn't get an escape

The thing Kha's identity should be going for is the isolation mechanic. Kha should have higher burst in a 1 on 1, rengar should be more of an engage style, dive the back line in a team fight type of guy. Rengar's like a Malphite with damage instead of CC, actually thats why you see him in a lot of Orianna comps. Also Kha should have the better early game.

4th3t0sDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well the "get the hell out" part is pretty much rengar's weakness, he doesn't get an escape

The thing Kha's identity should be going for is the isolation mechanic. Kha should have higher burst in a 1 on 1, rengar should be more of an engage style, dive the back line in a team fight type of guy. Rengar's like a Malphite with damage instead of CC, actually thats why you see him in a lot of Orianna comps. Also Kha should have the better early game.

Yes, but here's what I'm getting at, how do you make an isolation gimmick work in a teamfight-oritented game? That's the flaw they need to find a way around if they want Kha viable on a consistent basis.

Edit: Seems worthwhile to mention that this isn't exclusively a problem for Kha, Shaco also has a similar problem with having a presence in the lategame. While also benefiting from having isolated targets; it is not directly coded into his kit, and at least he can be effective at splitpushing when necessary.

iamleburkDec 27, 20151 votes

Well i guess the whole idea is to have the other team being scared to leave eachother alone. A good champion doesnt have to be teamfight oriented, actually i think he could be a strong splitpusher (forces 2 or more to deal with him, as will win any 1v1). Or you can go the route they seem to be doing atm; have his early game presence and ability to kill isolated laners/junglers legitimately trade off with his bad teamfighting (can snowball rest of the team so much that the 4v5 doesn't matter).

FantasySniperDec 26, 20152 votes

The isolation mechanic is what is holding him back. It makes him worthless late-game when people are grouping. He can't control access to the mechanic in the slightest. People compare him with Rengar because their kits have many parallels until the point of execution. Rengar is just as strong at killing lone opponents because of his deuling assassin kit. But unlike Rengar, Kha'Zix can't contribute and survive in teamfights nearly as well.

TotalJerkDec 26, 20151 votes

While I agree with what you mean about how they shouldn't have too similar play patterns, they were designed to be compared to one another.

WickedCrowDec 26, 20151 votes

Too bad the meta is no longer "What is fun" its "What broken shit can I use". Khazix could definitely use a buff or a QoL change here or there, but dont hold your breath over it. Rengar is decimating the Jungle Assassin role

J EevoDec 26, 20151 votes

Pretty sure Riot realizes that the correct way to buff kha is just to introduce something that'll buff mana based ad casters in general as they were hit pretty heavily across the board with their winrates falling to shit.

Khazix Jayce Yorick all fell after the item change which HEAVILY favored AD champions who could make us of crit and didn't necessarily need armor penetration.

The Yetii RiderDec 26, 20151 votes

Ideas-

Passive - The slow is 37.5% (up from 25%) against isolated targets.

W - If a target is isolated, it can take damage from multiple spikes if they hit (only useful if you've already gap closed, they won't get hit by multiple spikes if you poke).

E - Leaping to an isolated target fears them for 0.5 seconds. (Flavorful and very useful, just enough to get your combo started without being too devastating).

TyroneologyDec 26, 20151 votes

As much as I loves these ideas they would make Kha a MONSTER especially the E idea you have.

kaltenashesDec 26, 20151 votes

yeah, bye lee sin, welcome kha'zix

The Yetii RiderDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As much as I loves these ideas they would make Kha a MONSTER especially the E idea you have.

If we are entering into an ADC focused meta and Riot is nerfing tanks then we need assassins to be strong enough to keep ADCs in check.

Full BrainDec 26, 20151 votes

They need to remove the cooldown on reapplying his ult. It makes him worthless in every situation that isn't one on one against a squishy or hopping from one low health champ to another. Those should be his strengths but he shouldn't be weak in every other scenario.

MoemijiDec 27, 20151 votes

I honestly don't really see this being brought up much (may just be blind): Kha'Zix functions not as a straight up assassin in teamfights but much like a tame Katarina, in the sense that he can REALLY clean up after a teamfight, and by no means is he useless late game with correct usage of his evolved ultimate he starts to do some serious deeps; without having literally no escape after bursting the ADC ala Rengar.

His ganks are pretty decent (CC aside his damage is insane in isolation, which shouldn't be too hard to pull off as the enemy would presumably run away) and he serves as an efficient "finisher" to wombo combo teams. Counter-jungling with proper use of his kit is forgiving. His mid-game is really good: contesting objectives and dragon is quite easy with your leap q smite making for easy steals and his level 11 power spike is, quite frankly, disgusting with any form of damage items built. Split pushing is also a safe endeavour with two escapes.

Someone please correct me because it confuses me greatly; what's so hard about transitioning from an early-mid game revolving around isolation to a lategame revolving around weaving through team fights being a general nuisance for the enemy team with 6 seconds of invisibility? The only problem I feel with Kha'Zix at the moment is that BC feels awkward to build on him as the LW replacement.

Is there no real spot in League for niche picks? Coming from DOTA the debate makes no real sense to me. Rengar does one job better, Kha'Zix does another better.

Side note: If you haven't tried Stormraider's on Kha'Zix, you're missing out.