Makes no sense to randomly attach it to his ultimate, what part of "I eat team mate and we shoot across the map" equates to % of Tahm's max health as extra on hit damage
It just feels like you had another passive in mind for him but didn't want to give him 2 upfront passives, so you tacked it onto his ult
Why so damn overloaded?
RiotMeddler21 votesWe gave Tahm Kench bonus damage on his auto attacks because without it he lacked enough of an impact in fights. That's an issue that champions with non combat abilities, such as Tahm's ult, are at risk of.
The passive's on his ult specifically so that he follows a similar power curve to other champions, with a significant power spike at level 6 in particular. Putting some, or all, of the on hit damage on his character passive instead resulted in a champion that bullied others hard in the really levels and/or got crushed once other champions hit 6. It's not a good thematic fit for the active part of the ult, but in this case we felt the needs of gameplay needed to trump going for a stronger thematic fit.
As far as overload goes I'd agree we've had some champions in the past year with a bit much on their kits. I'd disagree that Tahm Kench is one of them though, the number of discrete effects he's got going on is pretty trackable, doesn't diffuse power/satisfaction too much and gives a fairly broad set of levers to adjust him f needed.
Khell DarkWolf3 votesConfirmed.
Shen getting 2nd passive attached to his Ult. 
"Kappa"
Deep Terror Nami2 votesGive Bard's meeps laser beam eyes that scale with his Ult :3
patmax171 votesYou gave him this passive thinking of his role in top lane, I guess? Would the reasoning still hold true for support Tahm (i'm thinking of bard and braum here as examples)
RiotMeddler1 votesYes, same logic for duo lane Tahm as well. The ratio's moderately generous though in part to help out solo or jungle Tahm's, who'll have a bit more gold to spend on HP items if they wish.
Wiggle Dat Butt2 votesWe gave Tahm Kench bonus damage on his auto attacks because without it he lacked enough of an impact in fights. That's an issue that champions with non combat abilities, such as Tahm's ult, are at risk of.
The passive's on his ult specifically so that he follows a similar power curve to other champions, with a significant power spike at level 6 in particular. Putting some, or all, of the on hit damage on his character passive instead resulted in a champion that bullied others hard in the really levels and/or got crushed once other champions hit 6. It's not a good thematic fit for the active part of the ult, but in this case we felt the needs of gameplay needed to trump going for a stronger thematic fit.
As far as overload goes I'd agree we've had some champions in the past year with a bit much on their kits. I'd disagree that Tahm Kench is one of them though, the number of discrete effects he's got going on is pretty trackable, doesn't diffuse power/satisfaction too much and gives a fairly broad set of levers to adjust him f needed.
I got a question Meddler, I was reading a post that quoted you and I have no idea if it's legit or not. They quoted you as saying that Riot is thinking about removing the cost for upgrading trinkets as people see this as a hinderance. How is basically 1 wave of minions a hinderance (okay maybe slightly more)? Vision CAN win a lot of games, and if the losing team refuses to buy extremely cheap items for vision, that's their fault. Why give people 3 free wards? I don't really understand this.
Retillin1 votesSo was Tahm made to be a support or a top laner? The last time you (Riot) made a support with the idea he could be a top laner, we had a champion with such a powerful kit (Thresh) that he's always been supper strong. Not to mention the other supports that were given the ability to solo lane (Lulu, old Soraka, ect...) either are bad as support (Lulu) or needed an overhaul (Soraka).
XLC2 votesI'm pretty sure Soraka was always meant to be a pure support...
Retillin2 votesShe was a top tier midlane for a while. Old Dignatas used her mid and Lulu top at one point. So she got nerfed until they could rebuild her to a more "pure" support.
RiotMeddler5 votesWe originally intended Tahm to be a tank, rather than a support. As his kit developed however we found that it was taking on some support like qualities. We concluded we liked those, so embraced them rather than trying to shift him back to the initial goal we had.
In terms of where Tahm plays on the other hand that's something we hope's flexible. We have had to adjust some supports that have solo laned and been really unhealthy there (e.g. Janna clearing entire waves mid with one spell from her own tower). We do think there's a lot of value in the variety healthy supports, or supportish champs, offer in other positions than bot though (e.g. Nunu jungle or Morg mid).
Puri Puri Taric1 votesWe originally intended Tahm to be a tank, rather than a support. As his kit developed however we found that it was taking on some support like qualities. We concluded we liked those, so embraced them rather than trying to shift him back to the initial goal we had.
In terms of where Tahm plays on the other hand that's something we hope's flexible. We have had to adjust some supports that have solo laned and been really unhealthy there (e.g. Janna clearing entire waves mid with one spell from her own tower). We do think there's a lot of value in the variety healthy supports, or supportish champs, offer in other positions than bot though (e.g. Nunu jungle or Morg mid).
and is that rly gonna be the new minimap ? because the color makes me nauseaus every time i look at it the color needs to be brighter it rly makes me sick.
Retillin2 votesBut Nunu was made as a jungler right? He got nerfed after being a strong support. And Morg was nerfed as a midlaner and pushed to support right? Elise got nerfed after being a strong support, same with Zyra. I could be wrong on some of these. But champs that are set as "jungle" or "solo lane" always seem to get changed if they bleed into another role. I don't wish to sound mean, but the track record on multi role champs is not very strong. (ignore a mid/top/adc that can tend to rotate, it's mostly jungle and supports that have the issue)
Pamelm1 votesBut Nunu was made as a jungler right? He got nerfed after being a strong support. And Morg was nerfed as a midlaner and pushed to support right? Elise got nerfed after being a strong support, same with Zyra. I could be wrong on some of these. But champs that are set as "jungle" or "solo lane" always seem to get changed if they bleed into another role. I don't wish to sound mean, but the track record on multi role champs is not very strong. (ignore a mid/top/adc that can tend to rotate, it's mostly jungle and supports that have the issue)
Elise was actually nerfed for being too strong of a top laner.
Hellioning1 votesI don't really feel that Nunu is a support being played in the jungle so much as he's a jungler being played as a support. Devour would not exist on his kit if he was meant to be a jungler, at least not the bonuses for eating jungle minions.
RiotMeddler3 votesI don't really feel that Nunu is a support being played in the jungle so much as he's a jungler being played as a support. Devour would not exist on his kit if he was meant to be a jungler, at least not the bonuses for eating jungle minions.
Nunu's definitely designed to be at home in the jungle, with you there. This sort of conversation can get a little bit murky though since 'support' is used to describe both a class (champion whose power amplifies others, has high base utility/low scaling, isn't damage focused etc) and a position (non farming champion, most often found in a duo lane bot). The support class is most often played in the support position, there are some exceptions though, and Nunu's one I'd call out as a support who generally works best in the jungle. We also see a larger range of champions in the support position than just those from the support class. Lot of mages are strong picks as non CSing duo laners (Annie, Zyra, Fiddlesticks etc), as are a number of tanks (Braum, Alistar etc) and occasionally champions from other classes (the odd Le Blanc or Yorick support for example).
Sire Hippington3 votesAre there any plans on a similar aproach for Twosted Fate and Shen, as both have a no-combat Ult aswell?
aperson11 votesTwisted Fate has pretty low cooldowns and a long stun, he's usually not got a problem staying relevant in teamfights.
Shen can be a decent damage threat on his own just from his bases, and has the potential to really disrupt the enemy team with a good taunt. And the massive shield on his ult can turn around a fight on its own.
Tahm is an immobile tank who has to stay in the fight for extended periods of time. If he gets kited to where he can't land 3 stacks, he deserves to at least be able to deal a little damage to the front line.
Otherwise you just end up with someone like Alistar who throws out his abilities hoping he hits someone and just kind of stands there waiting for CDs the rest of the fight.
RiotMeddler6 votesShen and TF have somewhat different solutions. Shen ult grants a substantial shield to give it in combat impact, rather than just into combat power. TF by contrast has extra power loaded into his W in particular (there's a lot more power there than the average basic ability).
ULTRAF0RCE1 votesI assume that is why he is the only champion to have two non ult abilities with 100+mana cost as well as a 100+ mana cost on his ult intially.
Sire Hippington5 voteswell, Shen still has a little powercurve problem in toplane, which is probably one of the reasons why he sees more success as support. Shen usually can dominate most matchups till level 6 due his strong 1v1 base kit, and from there on he usually has troubles and relys on makeing plays with his global as other toplaners just get a massive combat spike that he doesn't have at 6 in a 1v1( though disableing yourself for that shiled is usually not great in a 2v2 aswell, might save a life, but wont win a fight)
Tf is in a bit different place, he also lacks raw combatpower at 6 somcompared to other midlaners and should make up for it with his global presure, but unlike shen he has great ranged waveclear, so he can easily avoid combat with the laneopponent without loosing cs, so lacking raw combat power doesn't really hurt him to much i guess
RiotMeddler9 votesYeah, with you there. Shen's laning, and how some champions can respond to it and some just get clicked on a bunch, is something we're looking to improve in a moderate sized Shen rework we've got underway. Details still being locked down, though it's extremely likely that his E and R will be the same or very similar.
Phoenix Kotori 1 votesThis is awesome to hear. I hope we get to see this new Shen someday in the future.
Blackquill1 votesThank you so much. Especially for Shen support his E and R are essential.
Papa Toast1 votesMy only request is that his q doesn't become a skillshot like so many others
LilxPaprika1 votesYeah, with you there. Shen's laning, and how some champions can respond to it and some just get clicked on a bunch, is something we're looking to improve in a moderate sized Shen rework we've got underway. Details still being locked down, though it's extremely likely that his E and R will be the same or very similar.
For his E can you do this please
posted this in my mock patch list here: https://mocklolpatchnotes.wordpress.com/
Scuttle crab would be pleased.
Dash: The speed by which shen dashes sends a ripple along the edges of his taunt. This ripple effect that slows enemies nearby Shen and deals 50% dmg. Refunds 20 energy (half as much) per champion hit by the ripples. Edge of dash slows for 15,20,25,30,35 for 1 sec and deals 50% dmg. Restores 50% energy.
Shen’s e width nerf from a while back has made him have some difficultly hitting a more mobile champion pool.
The initial nerf to its width was in large part due to the amount of cc power his taunt holds. So while we’re increasing the width the extra portion we’re adding will now only slow targets.
whiff past someone ninja speed as to leave them somewhat disheveled, held back from it.
ExecutorDill1 votesby moderate you mean Gangplank-Level?
Puri Puri Taric1 votesWe gave Tahm Kench bonus damage on his auto attacks because without it he lacked enough of an impact in fights. That's an issue that champions with non combat abilities, such as Tahm's ult, are at risk of.
The passive's on his ult specifically so that he follows a similar power curve to other champions, with a significant power spike at level 6 in particular. Putting some, or all, of the on hit damage on his character passive instead resulted in a champion that bullied others hard in the really levels and/or got crushed once other champions hit 6. It's not a good thematic fit for the active part of the ult, but in this case we felt the needs of gameplay needed to trump going for a stronger thematic fit.
As far as overload goes I'd agree we've had some champions in the past year with a bit much on their kits. I'd disagree that Tahm Kench is one of them though, the number of discrete effects he's got going on is pretty trackable, doesn't diffuse power/satisfaction too much and gives a fairly broad set of levers to adjust him f needed.
if you think that way why not give bards ult a passive bonus ?
RiotMeddler2 votesWe considered a passive effect for Bard's ult, but concluded the active offered enough power when used appropriately that he still got a strong level 6 power spike. As far as total contribution to a fight goes one of the big reasons Bard has Meeps is to provide a some more ongoing presence late game.
SaltyKracka8 votesIt's attached to his ultimate so that he has to get levels if he wants that particular passive to be more effective.
RedCyclone1 votesbut to the point, why does he need 2 passives?
it's not like his kit is bad at all to warrant it
Ermidor4 votesWhat do you expect him to do in fights otherwise? Just stay around trying to save people?
JustMyBassCannon8 votesbut to the point, why does he need 2 passives?
it's not like his kit is bad at all to warrant it
What the hell is wrong with having more than one passive?
Please, someone, explain to me, what is the problem with having two or three passives on a champion? Since when is having multiple passives overloaded?
The entire point of this second passive is to give Tahm power scaling. It's specifically attached to his ultimate, so that he doesn't have this bonus at the start of the game. It's like Sivir's ult passive; not directly attached to her W, so that her power curve is more controlled.
McAllister3 votesSo rude, but I have to upvote so Meddler's put-down explanation is more visible. Sigh. When people like Jayce, Nidalee and Elise have seven abilities and Kha'Zix has five passives,* and these guys have been in the game since like 2012, I don't understand why people call some of the newer kits "overloaded."
-Unseen Threat (extra damage on next attack when no one sees him) -Marks, deals extra damage to isolated targets -Three evolutions of player's choice
Cenobite Azaziel2 votesMakes no sense to randomly attach it to his ultimate, what part of "I eat team mate and we shoot across the map" equates to % of Tahm's max health as extra on hit damage
It just feels like you had another passive in mind for him but didn't want to give him 2 upfront passives, so you tacked it onto his ult
Why so damn overloaded?
Overload?
