Stop using "you can ban them" as an excuse for a champion being blatanly overpowered.

koshkyra·May 9, 2018·77 votes·17,146 views

Its not that much of a problem here, but just stop using that argument when even you yourself know it is dumb and not even an argument.

93 Comments

TormentulaMay 9, 201832 votes

I can't ban them.

Because I can't ban all of them Shaco Kaisa Xayah Irelia Khazix Rengar Warwick Graves Evelynn Morgana TahmKench Fiora

######graves/morg are counterpicks for what i play, rest are either OP or I just don't feel like dealing with uninteractive gameplay.

SquishieMay 9, 20182 votes

my list Camille Evelynn Fizz Galio Irelia Janna Jax Kaisa Kassadin Katarina Kayn Kennen Khazix Leblanc Lulu MasterYi Nocturne Rengar Shaco Warwick XinZhao Zoe Zed

ZerenzaMay 9, 20182 votes

Yeah Evelynn kind of falls under the whole "I don't feel like dealing with this" sort of champion, even if she's easy to stop most player's won't try to.

Weak to counterjungling, poor pre-6 ganks, poor 1v1's against other, more powerful jungler's, susceptible to Pink Wards more than any other champion(even though NO ONE buys them against me when i play her.)

AirKingNeoMay 10, 20181 votes

Makes no sense: let the stats speak https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/brand/support/diamond Fizz I have no clue why people even think Fizz is remotely strong. Any stat website says he sucks. No waveclear, dies instantly in fights. Galio if you play in a competitive league, sure Janna She's only a bruiser counter. If you're playing a bruiser, you're banning Gnar or Kennen anyways. Jax I don't think you main Kayle. If you did, you ban Irelia instead. Kassadin (Same as Fizz, but he's actually tankier and less annoying) Katarina a little understandable because she's near impossible to deal with if you don't know what you're doing Kayn w a t ? MasterYi ????? Nocturne ??????? # XinZhao ?????????

SquishieMay 10, 20181 votes

Ok let's see Try laning against his 9999 range W with tons of damage Fizz Gets one or two kills somewhere, now everytime he sees you, you gonna die in teamfight with no chance to fight back unless you have the balanced boizz Janna Lulu with you. Also His E is a waveclear. Galio With him in mid, you cannot dive, nor push nor let them shove you and on top of that have to chose your fight timing very wisely. Janna One of the most cancerous shieldsluts out there, Requires very litte effort to play and so much effort and teamwork to deal with, and im not even talking about bruisers, Im talking about laning phase, (support/adc). Jax If this boi gets ahead hell be unstoppable no matter what. Kassadin He gets a bit ahead, and he is a terror to deal with in the midgame, you can't go do anything because you know he'll be there waiting for you. Katarina you can be 2 screens away from her and she still can get to you. Kayn A good kayn will leave you no way to dodge his ganks. MasterYi I'm sorry what ? you really don't understand why yi is on the list ? Maybe this will help you out item 3124 Nocturne He's not really op, but his ult damage is a bit silly in the early game, and you can't flash away from his fear. XinZhao try 2vs1'ing that guy

AirKingNeoMay 11, 20181 votes

Brand's lane is weak.

Don't feed Fizz in the first place.

Janna is still a worse Lulu is most cases.

Jax? EVERY CHAMPION IS HELL WHEN AHEAD?

Yet Kayn's stats suck?

So Yi needs over 7000 gold to be good???

Please refer to Dardoch's last LCS game with Nocturn as example.

2v1? Like his ganks? His ganks sucks. He can be 1v1ed easy.

SquishieMay 11, 20181 votes

since when brand's lane is weak, he is one of the strongest poke support out there wth u talkin about

It's not about feeding him, playing any sort of squishie vs fizz no matter what role jungle/sup/ad/top/mid youll get melted everytime if he gets a kill or two in lane.

Jax is special, because when a bit ahead he is unstoppable btw

How does his stats suck exactly

I didn't know item 3124 costs 7k

soloq=/=pro play, Evelyn can be the most op thing youll ever meet, but in pro play she is garbage.

its like you are playing a different game, xin can be 1v1'd easy, damn

AirKingNeoMay 12, 20181 votes

Don't die to Fizz in the first place.

These Kayn stats https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayn/jungle/diamond

Yi has to buy Bloodrazor and Boots, which is 3700 gold. Rageblade is another 3300. That's 7000.

Evelynn is a fine ban. Nocturn is the shitty one.

Who can't 1v1 Xin Zhao? Mid laners and supports?

MarothennanMay 9, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I can't ban them.

Because I can't ban all of them

######graves/morg are counterpicks for what i play, rest are either OP or I just don't feel like dealing with uninteractive gameplay.

Implying Graves isn't god tier at the moment

LordGeovanniMay 9, 20182 votes

we listing? Ahri Ashe Azir Caitlyn Darius Draven Ezreal Fiora Graves Jinx Kaisa Kalista Katarina Kindred Leblanc Lucian Quinn Riven Rumble Singed Sivir Syndra Tristana Twitch Varus Vayne Veigar Viktor Xayah Warwick Xerath Yasuo Zoe Lux Marksmen and some of these mages are balanced as if they only ever have to 1v1 each other and still have aoe abilties. Darius like Garen Is fine if they never fight other melee champions.

AirKingNeoMay 10, 20183 votes

Garen and Ashe are garbage. Kalista and Kindred are worse.

The fuck is this list?

1RiceBowl1xMay 9, 201818 votes

meanwhile i seem to keep getting the toplaner who bans darius, and then says, "ban camille, jax, nasus, tryndamere"

team bans their own ban picks WTF OMG WHY DIDNT YOU BAN THEM U NOOBS U GUYS ALL SUCK IM A SMURF U GUYS ARE HOLDING ME BACK

opponent picks one of the 4 champs he wanted banned WTF YOU GUYS NOW WE LOSE

someone: but ur a smurf right? so matchup should be ez? NO THEYRE STUPID BROKEN BRAINDEAD CHAMPS U NOOBS

game starts toplane goes 0/6 by 10 min

/all GG BAD TEAM

Andrey0345May 9, 20182 votes

If I heard a "smurf" ever call tryndamere a stupid broken braindead champ, I would just mute him and report for lying.

TormentulaMay 9, 201813 votes

He technically is.

The thing about tryn is he's so uninteractive that he can solo carry a game despite feeding and being overall bad. Its really annoying to be unable to do anything with somebody being forced to answer a tryn split push, so you pretty much rely on 4v4s and seeing who wins (meaning tryn feeding up there likely won't matter since he'll just base race you.). He racks up gold so fast with those pushes that he eventually gets the items to 2-3 shot a squishy during his ult so its a 4v4, or he forces more then one person to answer him so its a 3v4.

Then of course there's the broken random crit mechanic in his passive that makes trading and laning against him top all the more unpredictable.

Tryn isn't really meta, but is he a broken champ. Hence why we don't ever ask for tryn metas.

Andrey0345May 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

He technically is.

The thing about tryn is he's so uninteractive that he can solo carry a game despite feeding and being overall bad. Its really annoying to be unable to do anything with somebody being forced to answer a tryn split push, so you pretty much rely on 4v4s and seeing who wins (meaning tryn feeding up there likely won't matter since he'll just base race you.). He racks up gold so fast with those pushes that he eventually gets the items to 2-3 shot a squishy during his ult so its a 4v4, or he forces more then one person to answer him so its a 3v4.

Then of course there's the broken random crit mechanic in his passive that makes trading and laning against him top all the more unpredictable.

Tryn isn't really meta, but is he a broken champ. Hence why we don't ever ask for tryn metas.

Well, he's really easy to counter. Just pick malph/any good tank and destroy him in lane. And 2-3 shotting a squishy during his ult means squishy is either standing still autoattacking him or nobody is even trying to cc trynd letting him do whatever he wants. His ult is quite annoying but that's the only good thing he has, just cc chain him when he uses it and it's a kill.

Idk, it's one of the last top lane champs I would consider to ban or call broken.

ZerenzaMay 9, 20188 votes

Even if you beat him in lane, as the guy said, he just Splitpushes the entire game whether he wins or looses, that's why he's so infuriating because he's one of those champions that puts your entire game on a Timer, if you don't win before a certain point you lose the game most of the time.

Time-Bomb Champions: Nasus Veigar Tryndamere Tristana Jinx Yasuo

Their aren't many, but they all are equally annoying to deal with once you hit that time marker. I actually love the classic 0/9 power spikes of Yasuo and Tryndamere by the way, it's fucking great.

Andrey0345May 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Even if you beat him in lane, as the guy said, he just Splitpushes the entire game whether he wins or looses, that's why he's so infuriating because he's one of those champions that puts your entire game on a Timer, if you don't win before a certain point you lose the game most of the time.

Time-Bomb Champions:

Their aren't many, but they all are equally annoying to deal with once you hit that time marker. I actually love the classic 0/9 power spikes of Yasuo and Tryndamere by the way, it's fucking great.

Well, while he's definitely annoying, I don't think he's really strong as a champion in general, compared to many others.

EddardStark84May 9, 20181 votes

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about lol. Theorycraft doesn't change reality.

Snowman ArcMay 9, 20182 votes

He's not really a problem late game; team can CC him, even just slowing him and kiting will do the trick and he will be useless. The really broken thing about him is that he is unfun to play against in the early game, when he can luck out and crit you 2-3 times in a row (it has happened to me) and you then proceed to lose the lane, because you thought "there's no way he would crit 3 times in a row". This kind of RNG forces you to be very preservative in lane. I mean, we can all just play back, safe and wait to scale up, but if by design a lane is supposed to be played that way because of RNG, then it's not healthy.

EddardStark84May 9, 20181 votes

Wait what? He's literally only a problem LATE game for the exact reasons explained above. His nickname is "late game Trynd" for cripes sake (i.e he's 0-9 but split all game and has items now so none of that early game matters). It's like some of you comment without ever even having played the game.

Snowman ArcMay 10, 20181 votes

How is he a problem late game? His only mobility spell is at 10 seconds cooldown so even just slowing him with a Rylai's champion would be enough to make him useless.

Dasdi96May 9, 201810 votes

What's even worse is if my last pick hovers Kaisa / Zed and I still want to ban him because I worry that the enemy will pick them first. However, if I do, I expect a massive temper tantrum while I try to explain that I was afraid the enemy will pick them first.

KZ EngelMay 9, 20189 votes

when someone cries about a champ that isn't op, it's a very good response

AirKingNeoMay 9, 20182 votes

well some people are idiots and think things that are OP aren't OP

and they also don't look at stats.

NocturnalSheildMay 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

well some people are idiots and think things that are OP aren't OP

and they also don't look at stats.

Stats?

The highest winrate in the game right now is 54%

Which means if someone played a balanced 50% champion and someone else played literally the highest winrate champion in the game.

The person "abusing" the broken champion would win 4 more times every 100 games.

Thats like what 50lp. Everyone 100 games.

Yea much broken nerf now.

LoL hasnt some 9f the best balance of all mobas. People just have such hate boners for riot they refuse to admit it.

BEK MakadurMay 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The highest winrate in the game right now is 54%

For win rates aren´t even that a good indicator, because there are people one tricking a champ and there a people just trying them out and failing with them.

NocturnalSheildMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

For win rates aren´t even that a good indicator, because there are people one tricking a champ and there a people just trying them out and failing with them.

That doesnt mattwr you dont balance for the 1 tricks you balance for the whole crowd.

Other wise camille needs MASSIVE nerds because i think her mains are at like 64% winrate.

BEK MakadurMay 12, 20181 votes

That´s what i said...

AirKingNeoMay 10, 20181 votes

Yeah, because winrate is everything! Let's ignore pickrates above 10%, banrates above 40%... /s

People just have such hate boners for riot they refuse to admit it.

Being 'the best' is being comparatively good, but not objectively good. If the game was objectively balanced, Kha'zix wouldn't be above a 52% winrate, 50% banrate, and 10% pickrate for 5 months in a row, and be buffed during it.

NocturnalSheildMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, because winrate is everything! Let's ignore pickrates above 10%, banrates above 40%... /s

Being 'the best' is being comparatively good, but not objectively good. If the game was objectively balanced, Kha'zix wouldn't be above a 52% winrate, 50% banrate, and 10% pickrate for 5 months in a row, and be buffed during it.

Bah. Yasou had a 40 winrate and still over a 60% banrate due to people simply not wanting ti play against him.

Ban rate has LITERALLY nothing to do with a champions balance.

Same with pick rate. Theres plenty of strong champions that are simply niche.

AirKingNeoMay 10, 20181 votes

I'd like to see proof of Yasuo have 40% winrate and 60%+ banrate in Plat+ elo.

Ban rate has LITERALLY nothing to do with a champions balance.

Banrate in diamond+ does, especially when excessive.

Same with pick rate. Theres plenty of strong champions that are simply niche.

People pick what's most broken to climb. You see this a lot, hence 10%+ pickrates. It's not rocket science.

NocturnalSheildMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to see proof of Yasuo have 40% winrate and 60%+ banrate in Plat+ elo.

Banrate in diamond+ does, especially when excessive.

People pick what's most broken to climb. You see this a lot, hence 10%+ pickrates. It's not rocket science.

Except the highest winrate in the game is 54% its just back to my original post.

Nothing broken enough to draw people to it.

AirKingNeoMay 10, 20181 votes

"Yeah, because winrate is everything! Let's ignore pickrates above 10%, banrates above 40%... /s"

Handin Out NapsMay 9, 20187 votes

I don't think its used when something is op, I think its used when someone is complaining about a champion that isn't op, but they find annoying. Zed, Yasuo, etc.

AR URFMay 9, 20185 votes

All the champs that have been released and will be release are starting to make the ban system irrelevant. I'd estimate a good 10 champion releases from now and there will be just too many to ban a few.

ÈvilMortyMay 10, 20184 votes

JUST Zed Fizz BAN Leblanc Yasuo THEM Illaoi Kaisa THEY Irelia Kayn SAID Katarina Khazix IT Nasus Rengar WILL Shaco TahmKench BE Tryndamere Vayne FINE Zoe Fiora THEY Darius Camille SAID

FilDaFunkMay 9, 20183 votes

On the contrary, if the only solution is o ban them, clearly there is a problem!

Son FokuMay 9, 20183 votes

I don't have a huge list of champs I want banned but its definitely more than one.

Warwick Graves Janna Lulu

Honestly if Graves couldn't farm half my jungle in 5 seconds I wouldn't bother banning him, and I often roll the dice leaving WW open in favor of a Janna/Lulu ban. A lot of times people take him having never played him just because he's strong, those 2 supports though you can first time and do well.

NøctμrneMay 9, 20181 votes

Can Graves really jungle that fast? That would explain why he always pops up at my blue buff to try and counter jungle with full HP...

Son FokuMay 9, 20182 votes

Well that's an exaggeration, but he clears super fast. Compared to Wukong anyways, and he does it full health.

It's like an endless battle for Raptors with that guy at the very least.

RaiyzaMay 9, 20183 votes

Bans should be used to ban champions you don't want to see because they fuck up your strategy. Not because they are too obnoxious to deal with. That's why I have to ban Zac/Twitch every game. They're too fucking strong.

I'd rather ban Shen because we have a split push strategy, but nah. Not how this works these days.

Pika FoxMay 9, 20181 votes

Stop using "X is overpowered" as an excuse for not onowing how to play against champions (such as release Zoe)

SithesisLordMay 9, 20184 votes

such as release Zoe

Release Zoe was absolutely broken though. You could take Cleanse in order to avoid getting one-shot from E-Q, but then you were reminded that cleansing Drowsy doesn´t cleanse Asleep and often you wouldn´t even get to Cleanse Asleep because you would be dead.

You could take TP against her to try and roam instead, but then you were reminded she could get TP just from farming, without any drawbacks or spell replacements. Both which from a balance standpoint are incredibly idiotic and unsurprisingly, match CertainlyT's champion design of just shoving everything into a kit and just trimming the edges.

The '0.25 seconds nerf' meme became a meme because of how pathetic of a nerf that was. LS didn´t even analyze it, he just made a huge fanfare with 'Now the moment we´ve all been waiting for', only to spend the next 30 seconds or so looking at the nerf and laughing, because he, as well as any other sane person knew that it wouldn´t make Zoe less broken.

Then 8.4 came and Zoe finally got the nerfs she deserved from Day 1, then Riot buffed her to give her back some power and now she's balanced.

Pika FoxMay 9, 20181 votes

The Q nerf was quite a big nerf and severely under represented, especially as it impacted her early levels. Even .25s on a low CD spell is pretty massive.

Her only CC was the single weakest hard CC in the game. You got 2-3 seconds to react to it even after getting hit, and it could be broken by any form of champion damage. No other hard CC is that weak.

She never even surpassed 50% wr, and had clear, evident counters that no one bothered to exploit (she is garbage at teamfights, and proper support/tank play completely invalidates her entire kit)

InfernapeMay 9, 20181 votes

The Q nerf was quite a big nerf and severely under represented, especially as it impacted her early levels. Even .25s on a low CD spell is pretty massive.

Her win rate shifted by a whopping one percent. She went from just over 50% to 49%. That's a love tap compared to what she got in 8.4 and what other champions got when they were in the same sort of position as her.

Her only CC was the single weakest hard CC in the game. You got 2-3 seconds to react to it even after getting hit, and it could be broken by any form of champion damage. No other hard CC is that weak.

No other form of CC caused you to take increased true damage. No other form of hard CC was as spammable (especially when you consider her mana costs) or as forgiving as Zoe's E. It rewarded you for missing it, and it refunded its own cooldown if you hit a champion.

She never even surpassed 50% wr and had clear, evident counters that no one bothered to exploit (she is garbage at teamfights, and proper support/tank play completely invalidates her entire kit)

Maybe because she was literally banned in nearly 100% of casual games in ALL elos across all regions, and was either permabanned or first picked in pro play. I don't think people that were above diamond and were playing the game professionally were unable to exploit her "weaknesses".

Garbage at teamfights by being able to take someone out of one with a single ability.

Pika FoxMay 9, 20181 votes

Her winrate never even hit 50%.

And the Q nerfs were quite massive early game nerfs. Its undeniable.

No other form of hard CC is as flat out weak as hers, so of course her hard CC comes with benefits to make up for how garbage it is and how much it goes against what she wants (shes an assassin who is forced to mark a target and announce "I AM GOING TO ATTACK THIS GUY IN 3 SECONDS GUYS GET READY)

She was permabanned because she was annoying. She was never good or strong.

If being able to kill someone instantly and reliably made a champion OP, syndra would be the best champion at the game, she can do it far better than zoe ever could.

Even in pro and professional play, Zoe was never good, just always over hyped. Hell, even in the game with the ezreal "one shot", she got hard carried by ornn, and it was ornn who decided the entire game at dragon.

My Waifu VanillaMay 10, 20181 votes

The difference is Syndra can only one shot someone after MULTIPLE items and on at least a 90 second cooldown. Zoe is ONLY gated by her E cooldown (which is nowhere near 90 seconds and got reduced drastically by hitting it) and was reaching near 1 shot territory on 1 item if she committed a flash that may or may not have been hers. "But she had to land a skillshot!" meanwhile Syndra almost NEVER gets kills without landing E. The only time Syndra could oneshot with JUST R is if she was ahead. Zoe kicks people out of fights going even. Yes, her E gets broken by any source of damage, but that shouldn't happen in most scenarios and even if it does get broken it is still going to double the source that breaks it meaning you are still probably going to die to that Brand W or Caitlyn Headshot or at least get kicked out of the fight just as much as if Zoe hit you with Q.

Pika FoxMay 10, 20181 votes

... Yeah, no. Zoe never reached "one shot" territory with 1 item. She reached 3 shot territory. It was only a "one shot" if she landed E, used R, hit Q, autod and blew ignite. Hit literally everything. At which point, literally any mage who uses a full rotation would kill their target. Her damage was blown severely out of proportion.

PercentagesMay 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6lVFQlIu,comment-id=000b000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-10T05:27:55.597+0000)

... Yeah, no. Zoe never reached "one shot" territory with 1 item. She reached 3 shot territory. It was only a "one shot" if she landed E, used R, hit Q, autod and blew ignite. Hit literally everything. At which point, literally any mage who uses a full rotation would kill their target. Her damage was blown severely out of proportion.

This guy is retarded, don't mind him...