seriously. im sick of near misses. no one can be expected to calculate that damage on the spot.
its not even the same as with chogath or darius, where you can work with absolute values. in the heat of the moment, deciding if the ult should execute the target (even without shields and heals) comes down to guesswork at best.
please just add this already. a small sword, or the demacian symbol over enemies that are in kill range of the ult.
PatMcGroyn6 votesI agree that Garen should have an indicator, for consistency if nothing else.
Knight Devout5 votesWell, the reason Garen's Ultimate doesn't have an indicator is exactly because, unlike Choggy and Darius, you have to factor in the enemy magic resist.
You aren't supposed to know exactly how much damage you deal with your execute with Garen.
That's the reason behind it, ofc I understand if you don't agree with it.
Maestro808 votesDoesn't Zed's ult leave a special mark if your ult will kill the target? Why not Garen?
Sukishoo3 votesZed is an Assassin, of course he's got some extra moves in place for his. He's MEANT to take people down to nothing as fast as possible. Garen is a Tanky fighter, he's more there to absorb damage and deal a fair amount, if he can get kills then that's just an added bonus for him.
Maestro802 votesAn execute is an execute, regardless of the class of champion it's on.
Sukishoo1 votesNope.
Maestro803 votesGaren's ability specifically does more damage based on how much health you have. It is literally designed to execute. Zed's ultimate doesn't even do that. It just provides a quality-of-life indicator that you don't need to spend any more time trying to kill a target that will already die to the delayed damage. And while I agree that assassins are designed to 100-0 a champ as quickly as possible, a delayed damage ult like Zed's actually flies in the face of this. Certainly roles usually follow certain design ideas but there are always exceptions.
What argument can you mount other than "nope?"
Sukishoo2 votesYou're so mad, just keep asking for things that are never gonna happen :) good day.
Maestro803 votesWho's mad? Perplexed that you don't counter my argument, maybe....
Sukishoo1 votesYou cleary are :)
Neptide4 votesYou know someone got roasted when they answer "Nope"
Maestro801 votesYeah, that's about as close as you get to winning the internet...
Sukishoo1 votes"roasted" talk about using pathetic terms.
Maestro801 votesNo more pathetic than dismissive, one-word replies or refusal to come back with a proper argument...
Sukishoo1 votesYou are a really sad person.
ChaosThief3 votesWhat makes him sad? You act as if he's angry when he's defeating you with logic.
Sukishoo1 votesNo he's really not, and you just can't see that.
Maestro801 votes...Let's not forget ad hominem attacks...
Knight SoIaire 1 votesyou always need to factor the entire kit into this
choggy gets an indicator because killing units with his ult is vital to his gameplay
darius gets an indicator when his ult deals max dmg so he still has to know when it will kill
zed has an indicator cause his ult is a core of his kit and failing his ult means that zed failed hard
garen has no indicator cause he does not have anmy ellement that would require the indicator, he does not rely on that ult nor he is made around that ult, any dmg his ult does can be counted as a bonus
Knight Devout1 votesNow, that is a good point. I could argue, but I really can't put my finger on why they gave this tool to Zed.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesBecause, unlike Zed, Garen's damage is actually based on the target's HP.
Zed's damage is based on how much damage he deals after marking the target. It's like a Zilean Time Bomb instead of a Spider-form Elise Q.
Knight Devout1 votesIt's true, but it doesn't justify why Zed has it and Garen doesn't.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesDo any % missing HP spells have an indicator for when it would execute the target?
Do any %HP spells, for that matter, have indicators for how much damage they will deal?
Maybe this isn't a problem with Garen. Maybe it's a clarity issue with all %HP damage.
Knight Devout1 votesNope, but I think it has more to do with their being either skillshots or non-ultimate spells.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesBoth of Elise's Qs are not skill shots.
Jayce's hammer E is not a skill shot.
Amumu's W is not a skill shot.
Brand's Passive is not always a skill shot, and it does attach to his ultimate.
Trundle's ultimate is not a skill shot.
I could go on, but I believe you're getting the point by now.
Critmaster Garen2 votesWell, the reason Garen's Ultimate doesn't have an indicator is exactly because, unlike Choggy and Darius, you have to factor in the enemy magic resist.
You aren't supposed to know exactly how much damage you deal with your execute with Garen.
That's the reason behind it, ofc I understand if you don't agree with it.
or they just didnt think of it when they made him in 2009/2010. i dont know if cho had an ult indicator from the start, or if it was just easier to implement, since the calculation is less difficult and they just slapped it on the ability.
I think Garen's ultimate needs to have the scaling made a lot more clear.
It's basically % missing HP damage, but it bases it on flat values. 1 damage per 3.5 HP is 28.57% missing HP. 1 damage per 3 HP is 33.33% missing HP. 1 damage per 2.5 HP is 40% missing HP. The scaling is a bit jumpy and oddly designed in the first place.
As far as an indicator, you should be paying attention to who has what for HP and MR. Even assassins like Zed still have to pay attention to the HP and resistance of their target, so they can actually pick the right target to attempt assassination.
even if you pay attention to the enemies hp/mr, you can mostly just guess where exactly the kill range of the ult is.
as far as the scaling goes, the base damage helps with executing squishies and allows to use the ult early against them if needed, and pick the kill up with ignite if they flash away.
there is still no reason, that you have to guess how much damage an ability actually deals. its different with flat values, where the calculation is much easier. every point of resistance effectively increases the enemies health against the damage type by 1%. so if you remember his mr or armor, its easy to quickly calculate how hard an ability hits. but the addition of the % health scaling makes it unusual difficult to determine how effective the ability actually is.
JustMyBassCannon1 voteseven if you pay attention to the enemies hp/mr, you can mostly just guess where exactly the kill range of the ult is.
It's not difficult to make an educated guess. 30 MR means ~20-25% reduction (3/4 to 4/5 damage), 100 MR means half damage, 200 MR means 1/3 damage. Assuming max rank ulti, it's 375+40% of missing HP (400 damage per 1000 HP they're missing)
All you need to do is keep a few key milestones in mind; if they're missing 500 HP, +200 damage, 100 MR means it deals half as much...keep those minor details in mind, take a glance, and you should be able to determine when his ultimate will be a killing blow.
as far as the scaling goes, the base damage helps with executing squishies and allows to use the ult early against them if needed, and pick the kill up with ignite if they flash away.
I didn't say I had a problem with the base damage. It's the way that the scaling works. It's just not intuitive design; clarity is terrible and most people aren't capable of doing that kind of math on the fly.
there is still no reason, that you have to guess how much damage an ability actually deals. its different with flat values, where the calculation is much easier. every point of resistance effectively increases the enemies health against the damage type by 1%. so if you remember his mr or armor, its easy to quickly calculate how hard an ability hits. but the addition of the % health scaling makes it unusual difficult to determine how effective the ability actually is.
Actually, each kind of %HP is not difficult at all to figure out. Missing HP is the most complicated, but only because you have to actually do some preliminary subtraction to figure out how much HP they're missing. After that, just round to the nearest 1000, multiply the % by 10 and you'll have your bonus damage.
What is difficult is on-the-fly calculations of their resistances and effective HP. But here's a trick; 100 Armor/MR = 1/2 damage. 200 = 1/3 damage. 300 = 1/4 damage. 400 = 1/5 damage.
Zulgaines4 votesBeing one of the most underwhelming executes in the game deserves an indicator, at least.
who do we report3 voteslets give everything spell indicators and also skill shot path indicators based on built-in movement prediction. Also lets make all of this automated so if you press one button your skillshot will instantly land and get a kill.
Critmaster Garen6 voteslets give everything spell indicators and also skill shot path indicators based on built-in movement prediction. Also lets make all of this automated so if you press one button your skillshot will instantly land and get a kill.
ok, fine smartass.
maybe youre able to solve an equation that depends on 2 variables on the spot. im not too ashamed to admit, that im not. give me 5 minutes and i will do it with a pen and a piece of paper. ive actually done the calculation a couple times to see how much damage his ult deals on average. but in the middle of a trade? nope.
am i supposed to memorize a spread sheet with the enemy magic resistance, and maximum hp for every rank of his ult to know its kill range? seems a bit silly. even chogath gets an indicator, and he deals true damage. as in, you look at the damage and can immediately decide if it can finish your target or not.
At the same time, a Marker would just make him easier to play, and Garen is one of the easiest champions to use already; this would also be an indirect buff because a player that would otherwise decide to retreat rather than make a risky dive can just say 'but I KNOW it's a guaranteed kill'.
the downside would be, that the indicator would be visible to both parties.
and lets be honest. its not like he couldnt still use a buff. if his ult has a cooldown like a global ult, it could at least be a tad more reliable.
also, i disagree that hes one of the easiest easiest champ to use. his kit might not be mechanically demanding, but bis shortcomings when it comes to mobility and range require a lot more skill in other areas, like positioning and decision making. when you dont have a get out of jail free card that lets you hop over a wall, as soon as a fight goes south, every step you take counts.
Raykushi2 votesAt the same time, a Marker would just make him easier to play, and Garen is one of the easiest champions to use already; this would also be an indirect buff because a player that would otherwise decide to retreat rather than make a risky dive can just say 'but I KNOW it's a guaranteed kill'.
7ha7guy77710 votes
teed kill
Raykushi1 votesDUURRR HURHURHUR
LordTobiothan6 votesAt the same time, a Marker would just make him easier to play, and Garen is one of the easiest champions to use already; this would also be an indirect buff because a player that would otherwise decide to retreat rather than make a risky dive can just say 'but I KNOW it's a guaranteed kill'.
literally anything with range is easier to play than Garen. someone with one hand can play an adc with some degree of effectiveness, yet so many of them are considered "difficult."
SirFeedselot2 votesAt the same time, a Marker would just make him easier to play, and Garen is one of the easiest champions to use already; this would also be an indirect buff because a player that would otherwise decide to retreat rather than make a risky dive can just say 'but I KNOW it's a guaranteed kill'.
literally anything with range is easier to play than Garen. someone with one hand can play an adc with some degree of effectiveness, yet so many of them are considered "difficult."
Because when I think difficult, I think Lucian and Tristana, and when I think easy, I think of melees without gap closers.
vscAloha1 votesPlease tell me you forgot your Kappa (Kappa)
The5lacker2 votesYeah no. All you need to know is that, at max rank, Garen's ult is 40% missing health. That means if they're below about 30% health, and they haven't build oodles of MR, you can probably kill them.
Plus, welcome to every execute ever.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYeah no. All you need to know is that, at max rank, Garen's ult is 40% missing health. That means if they're below about 30% health, and they haven't build oodles of MR, you can probably kill them.
Plus, welcome to every execute ever.
like darius or chos execute? but youre right "every execute"
and its not like the base damage on the ability changes your entire assumption of the enemy being below 30% health already, depending how much your opponent built.
add changing mr values and its not really that clear anymore.
ChaosThief1 votesThose aren't inherently made to be executes. Unlike garen, Cho's and darius's ult will ALWAYS deal the same damage, it simply rewards last hitting someone with it.
Garen's ult actually IS an execute, as it deals more damage as a target is low, making it easier to just kill a weak target rather than a strong one.
Critmaster Garen1 votesThose aren't inherently made to be executes. Unlike garen, Cho's and darius's ult will ALWAYS deal the same damage, it simply rewards last hitting someone with it.
Garen's ult actually IS an execute, as it deals more damage as a target is low, making it easier to just kill a weak target rather than a strong one.
wat. ecept that the rewards of using their ults as a finishing move are significant enough for them to qualify as executes. besides. as with garens ult, you deal more damage with darius ult, the more damage you already dealt to your target by applying stacks. if you just ult someone on 100% hp, it will barely hit them. if you already hit the target with spells and autos, it will hit much harder. its just a different mechanic that rewards for using the ability at the end of a fight, instead of the beginning.
not to mention, that the freaking reset is kindof important. they have different mechanics attached to them, but theyre also executes. the difference is, that its very easy to decide with these abilities, how much damage youre going to deal.
ceaselessphantom3 votesYeah no. All you need to know is that, at max rank, Garen's ult is 40% missing health. That means if they're below about 30% health, and they haven't build oodles of MR, you can probably kill them.
The best part is that if they are at exactly 30% than the bonus damage will be 28% of their max health not factoring any magic resist.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesAnd if 375 is less than 2% of their max HP, then they have over 18000 HP.
Seriously though, assuming base 30 MR, they'd need at least 4000 max HP for the execute not to take.
ceaselessphantom1 votesAnd if 375 is less than 2% of their max HP, then they have over 18000 HP.
Seriously though, assuming base 30 MR, they'd need at least 4000 max HP for the execute not to take.
Squishes alone usually have 42 magic resist. and in the case of squishes most the damage is the base anyways. You try and use that to judge your ult on a bruiser there is barely any chance you did not miss. and those are pretty much the only ones you will ult since Garen is so easy to kite.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesI was simply using base 30 because that's base MR. Yeah, people use MR glyphs often.
In any case, I've never played Garen. I just know his mechanics and I've done the math outside of games to know several important benchmark numbers.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesI think Garen's ultimate needs to have the scaling made a lot more clear.
It's basically % missing HP damage, but it bases it on flat values. 1 damage per 3.5 HP is 28.57% missing HP. 1 damage per 3 HP is 33.33% missing HP. 1 damage per 2.5 HP is 40% missing HP. The scaling is a bit jumpy and oddly designed in the first place.
As far as an indicator, you should be paying attention to who has what for HP and MR. Even assassins like Zed still have to pay attention to the HP and resistance of their target, so they can actually pick the right target to attempt assassination.
Centuros1 votesUnlike Darius or Cho'Gath, he doesn't get any bonus from killing his target with it; if you fail, you just spin at them again.
You know, unless you are using it at max range because they ran.
Pvt Yong Tai1 votesay, the justice system ain't perfect.
Neptide1 votesWell unlike Cho'gath and Darius, Garen is only 450 ip, so there's going to be a difference between them, they want to make the champions that cost more have a little bit of an advantage over the ones that cost less because they want you to put more time into the game :/.
Kowe The Ewok1 votesConsidering that Garen hast the worst finisher of them I'ld say that it would be fair to have this slight advantage.
Considering how much more powerful Daris (Cho) or Jinx ulti are Garen's ultimate really deserves some QoL buff