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the reason tanks are running amock early game is because black cleaver is a more late game item

LilxPaprika··6 votes·2,340 views

the old black cleaver helped deal with tanks. it gave penetration up front with brutalizer and completing it cost 3000gold instead of 3500. so obtaining the shread was more within reach.

Instead of nerfing ice born gauntlet. give fighters a way to help their adcs by shreading their armor.

edit strikethrough

~~Example Abyssal on a sejuani helps the ap carry significantly. Ap champions also have considerable shread with void. ~~

but adcs have less shread now with item 3035 so they could really benefit from an ally with black cleaver.

its not hp tank items that are that strong its armor damage items.

imagine if mr tank items didn't have a good shread to counter them, they would be just as powerful. Not only that I find the game leans a bit in favour of physical damage overal so making it harder to punish armor stacking early game is felt even more.

http://i.imgur.com/MEhmovW.jpg

19 Comments

Saianna3 votes

Few, FEW, tanks become good due to their natural synergy with armor because of this ADC meta and suddenly it's a tank flood? Tanks running amock?

Gimme some of this stuff you are sniffing.. Or better not cause I still want to have my braincells working at the end of the day.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

Few, FEW, tanks become good due to their natural synergy with armor because of this ADC meta and suddenly it's a tank flood? Tanks running amock?

Gimme some of this stuff you are sniffing.. Or better not cause I still want to have my braincells working at the end of the day.

sorry correction, I say tanks but i really mean 'damagey' champions that learned that there was not a strong counter to armor stacking and so took advantage of this opportunity. really the two main offenders are sunfire item 3068, & item 3025 particularly on high mobile champions like Akali,Udyr, Ekko hell even Talon as demonstrated by valkrim.

Saianna1 votes

If that's what you mean, then BC will not help you there. At least not as much as you think.

When you face "them" it's better to just live long enough untill their burst ends. so Frozen Mallet/Maw/Steraks might be better

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

If that's what you mean, then BC will not help you there. At least not as much as you think.

When you face "them" it's better to just live long enough untill their burst ends. so Frozen Mallet/Maw/Steraks might be better

hence why a mini black cleaver preferably one that builds out of phage with hp would allow me to devote more ressources to tankyness.

Sohleks2 votes

That's true the Black Cleaver nerfs has phased the item out from the optimal first purchase for pretty much any champ. However I think it still makes it into builds 2nd or 3rd purchase on champions it makes sense on when it makes sense. That sometimes happens when items get nerfed. Kinda happened with Frozen Heart. You don't see it rushed very often anymore, but it makes a good 2nd or 3rd armor item in the correct situation.

When it was good as a first purchase when it was super strong last season I'd say it was very oppressive considering it just kinda scales with all the armor they'll ever build. It made a kill lane top lane meta.

Nerfs to last whisper and the black cleaver made armor a monster this season. We still need them tho. I think Black Cleaver is supposed to be the lord dominik's equilvalent for sustained damage bruisers. It's just BC early is suboptimal these days. You're just too squishy to stand toe to toe if you rush it. And it costs a lot. Maybe BC could be a bit buffed for a meta shift. Armor items are very strong right now.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

BC has become more of a juggernaut item. It's pretty great on Garen or Darius as a first item, and really is one of the few damage items they need

Sohleks2 votes

Mhmm, the item is perfect for them. They were designed around the most powerful iteration of that item. But now we have something much more costly and less durable and I suspect (I may be wrong as I don't play those champions) that it's no longer the best rush even for them. I think they'd be much better off abusing currently obviously effective items like Sunfire or Maw in the correct matchups than spend 3500g rushing an item with a giant's belt of hp and no resistances.

You don't see Garen or Darius meta anymore because their item is no longer that great. I betcha a Sunfire Poppy or even Shen (new shen, with super % dmg and auto blocks) outrades traditional black cleaver rush Darius.

Lost R1 votes

It's suboptimal as an early build if you're going merely for the armor shred because in the early game, tank durability at that point is not substantial enough to warrant rushing it. On resourceless champions like Riven or Renekton, however, it's really good because of the high CDR and the speed boost. Even on low-mobility champions like Illaoi, Darius or Gangplank, it's still a choice option because it gives them a little of everything they need.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

One thing that would help out Cleaver tremendously would be simply add another Long Sword to the build path. Would make the combine cost way more manageable (800 gold, instead of 1150).

ßurst2 votes

Take my up vote HERE HAVE EM ALL this is a really amazing idea tbh maybe even have that new item your thinking of as I see as a separate final item so fighters can have access to their needed cdr against tanks along with their armor shred really amazing post best I've seen in a long time I'm being fr

LilxPaprika1 votes

By making a shread accessible when deemed necessary without feeling forced to rush blackcleaver. You can continue to perform your front line duties if your a tank and build resistance etc. or even focus instead on completing item 3147 as an assassin while sitting on the mini black cleaver.

this makes counter building an important part of the game. maybe now champions will think twice instead of rushing armor items. sure build some armor like item 3157 on ap or item 1031 on ad but not so much that the enemy will say alright this guy is asking for me to build blackcleaver.

tanks were not as scary because they tended to lack damage and couldn't quite 1v1 an adc fast enough. An Akali ... can however.

CoolKnightST1 votes

I would give a juggernaut an strength that they doesn't suppose to have. It's not likely we will ever see an change that could place part of a marksmen functionality.

Add this point of time we only have a fell true tanks. I would say we can split that into a fell groups:

  • Supportive tanks: Tanks with high cc but low damage, often their primary damage is magic like Nautilus
  • Sustain tanks: Tanks with low cc but high sustain damage like DrMundo
  • The 3th groups is kinda hard to define and some champion are only near the edge of this group. It are champion with low to average cc and high burst. I take Chogath as the example for this one but other than that their are only a fell champions that currently using this design.

Just to point out that juggernauts are not primary tanks. They are tanky but often they tend to focus their build on only one tank stat.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

I would give a juggernaut an strength that they doesn't suppose to have.

black cleaver is not and more importantly should not be a juggernaut exclusive item. it also got changed from when it had 400 hp. its just as much for fighters Riven XinZhao LeeSin Pantheon MonkeyKing Vi Tryndamere and even assassins like talon/shaco/khazix can use it effectively.

juggernauts will always have their weaknesses. this change won't suddenly make them op. this will likely make juggernauts even more susceptible to botrk.

LilxPaprika1 votes

When it was good as a first purchase when it was super strong last season I'd say it was very oppressive considering it just kinda scales with all the armor they'll ever build. It made a kill lane top lane meta.

I agree it was super strong. I made multiple post back then fighting for tanks because the old lastwhisper and blackcleaver were too strong.

this is why unlike the old black cleaver this will be more respectable and only apply to bonus armor for the mini version. League of black cleaver was called that for a reason because its effective. mini blackcleaver will be tame in comparison but enough to provide a fair answer.

Games are determined a lot early game in this season. I hear Valkrim a challenger player say that a great way to improve your game is focus on the early game. Often times even if you complete black cleaver, the damage is already done and enemy got the lead/snowball they needed. if you can devote 1k or more gold to other sources that help you fulfill your job and still have some answer to armor stackers I think this is the best answer.

as a jungler its imperative also. Say I play JarvanIV and I am my team's primary hope as a front line. getting warrior first item and I still don't have any tankyness aside from maxing W second. item 1400 item 3047 item 3044 + say 1000 for mini black cleaver I can afford a whole item 1011 istead of completing item 3133 into item 3071

that's another thing jungle items aren't very flexible imo. i talk about this here. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5NGpEqI5-jungle-mains-please-read-giving-jungle-items-flexible-build-paths

Nekusen1 votes

item 3153 item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 item 3034

sorry if i don't feel sad of the first vs item 3135 item 3151

also, item 3001 isn't a tankbuster item at all, all the opposite as its stronger vs squishies, like item 3147 item 3156 item 3134 item 3142

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

item 3153 item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 item 3034

sorry if i don't feel sad of the first vs item 3135 item 3151

also, item 3001 isn't a tankbuster item at all, all the opposite as its stronger vs squishies, like item 3147 item 3156 item 3134 item 3142

this is true and it would be very underwhelming were it not for void staff existing in its current form. I am erroneous here. I'll strike that in op.

I will say that the old black cleaver plus old lastwhisper was very toxic to tanks not to mention old botrk as well. After cinderhulk got nerfed tanks had it rough. When both BC and LW are strong tanks suffer a lot. now we kind of have neither because one is out of reach. Lord dominicks and grievous was a good move imo or at least would have been deemed so if it was more readily paired with black cleaver.

I do think some shread should be more readily accessible along the way.

LilxPaprika1 votes

thank you so much means a lot. right after I wrote this I watched Valkrin play MonkeyKing jungle, great example of what is currently afflicting blackcleaver/warrior junglers when you can't get an early lead.

https://www.twitch.tv/valkrin/v/59967557 game starts at 2h 53min

Seenan1 votes

TBC's recipe cost as it is, is too stupidly high, tbh.

LilxPaprika1 votes

Actually TBC is surprisingly cost effective sitting at 95% from just base stats. And with strong passives. Phage is great on melee champs and you can take out so much gold worth of armor from the enemy particularly quickly on some champions I might add.

The thing is when all you really want is the shread it can be tough to get when you choose not to rush BC first item and need resistances along the way to even live long enough to apply the stacks.

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