Tahm ate me... Kalista ulted him... He gets me under his tower... From 2 screens away...

TeemoXNidalee·Jul 28, 2015·76 votes·8,644 views

counterplay

105 Comments

ElJanitorFrankJul 28, 201550 votes

Eh. You can leave before 3 stacks are on you, that's where the counter play is.

And honestly this is an extremely iffy situation, you'd need those 2 specific champions, with Kalista's ultimate up, let Tahm get 3 stacks on you, and be in about the middle of the lane.

I understand; those are not hard things to accomplish, but you need every single one of them in order for it to work in the first place. Complaining about this is like saying Blitz + Thresh botlane has no counterplay, because Blitz can take threshes lantern and keep you under tower until you die. You can dodge the hook, sure, but you can also dodge Tahm's Q or back off before he autos you too much.

Next time your jungler comes to gank, Kalista doesn't have an ult to save Tahm, and she doesn't have an ult to set up a gank either.

ChaoticPineconeJul 29, 20154 votes

'next time a jungler comes to gank' isnt really a solution or counterplay, as their bot lane got a kill. If you were playing any other duo lane, youd use your ults to get a kill, right?

Although the Kalista-Taum lane isnt the worst abuser of this. I think Kalista+Blitz is a whole lot worse.

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20152 votes

That isn't the only solution, and either jungler ganking is a super likely scenario to set up for a dragon.

Kalista's ultimate doubles as an escape for her support, now she cannot use this escape for her support.

LeeDarkJul 29, 20154 votes

He still has a point. If you have a choice between using an ability to escape or using it to get a kill, which are you going to pick? Ekko is ALWAYS going to tower dive for a kill, knowing he can use his ult to get out, even if that means the jungler MIGHT come gank him while it is on cooldown. TF is always going to try to create pressure and get a good gank in with his ult instead of saving it just in case he needs it to escape.

Getting a kill now will always trump MAYBE not having an escape later.

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20152 votes

The stakes are raised when 2 people are involved, though. I'm not trying to say that ulting for a kill is incorrect, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that sometimes counter play can be had after the event occurred. That's why people time flashes, and ults, tps, etc.

MohawkBirdJul 29, 20153 votes

[deleted]

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20156 votes

Or walk away, because Tahm has 1 mediocre slow in his kit. I can think of almost no situation besides an all in when you would get a rend+tongue lash that leads to Kalista ult into turret, unless you are doing something really, really badly.

You let Tahm get 3 stacks on you, Kalista auto attack you multiple times and use E, and are still close enough to Tahm to get consumed, who is still close enough to Kalista to get ulted, and they're both close enough to turret to launch you in that direction...

Do you see the problem yet? Might as well have been ezreal + blitzcrank. It ends the same way. You do stupid shit and die. Get blitz hooked because you're not on the other side of the minions, knocked up with Ez damaging you, then silenced by blitz, and bam, you're dead.

The only difference between the two is that Blitz + Ez can be done anywhere, not just near a turret, and Blitz's ult cooldown is so low that they waste less resources.

RohirrimJul 29, 20152 votes

at least thresh and blitz Q is easy to dodge but Tahm W and Kalista R are instant spells cant be dodged

YakasJul 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Eh. You can leave before 3 stacks are on you, that's where the counter play is.

And honestly this is an extremely iffy situation, you'd need those 2 specific champions, with Kalista's ultimate up, let Tahm get 3 stacks on you, and be in about the middle of the lane.

I understand; those are not hard things to accomplish, but you need every single one of them in order for it to work in the first place. Complaining about this is like saying Blitz + Thresh botlane has no counterplay, because Blitz can take threshes lantern and keep you under tower until you die. You can dodge the hook, sure, but you can also dodge Tahm's Q or back off before he autos you too much.

Next time your jungler comes to gank, Kalista doesn't have an ult to save Tahm, and she doesn't have an ult to set up a gank either.

I don't think it's only that. If there is any bruiser on your team, and Tahm on the enemy team, the bruiser is now useless. He will literally auto lick auto and eat, What can u do about it? flash from a supp in the middle of a teamfight instead of a sej ult or something? Tahm is a little underrated imo. Either that or i haven't seen a good matchup against him yet.

S H A Y C 0Jul 28, 201515 votes

imagine if she took a thresh lantern Shaco

RenthaeusJul 28, 20153 votes

While he was doing tp into the Nexus turrets. Then Kalist grabs it a second before and he's at the turret then Kal is there

Kitsuki05Jul 29, 20151 votes

Theshes latern won't transport you any more once he moves out of range.

NinjaFifer19Jul 29, 201514 votes

Blitz pull, into a Skarner Ult, followed by him clicking Thresh lantern, then getting eaten by Tahm getting ulted by a kalista. Congratz, you just got pulled from your own fountain into the enemy's.

"Counterplay"

BârdJul 29, 20154 votes

Well, they just blew half their major cooldowns.

Your team should be able to wreck them if they do that.

NinjaFifer19Jul 29, 20152 votes

Tch, I wasn't being serious. There's no way this kind of thing would work. Unless Tahm went super attack speed, there'd be a problem getting his 3 stacks off before the stun wore off. Just a fun theory craft.

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20153 votes

Skarner can't take Thresh lantern when ulted, unless they changed it.

Bouffon dAnglaisJul 29, 20152 votes

Skarner can't take Lantern while ulting, I believe.

SteelflameJul 29, 201510 votes

You say this like it is easy. It isn't. There are a ton of things that make it hard to do...

Tahm has to get 3 stacks on an enemy. As an immobile melee, he can't easily do this. If you let him land 3 Qs back to back at range to enable him to apply the stacks without AAs, you deserve much worse than just being instantly killed because you were out of position on top of hit with a triple stack passive. If he applied it with AAs, then why the hell was he in AA range? He has NO GAP CLOSER. Unless you count him trying to ult behind you.... which, lol, fall back and burst him with all the warning you are going to get. Or, hit him with anything if you can see him attempting to set it up... Or... just don't be out of position that badly.
Tahm's Devour after a lot of ranks only last JUST long enough to make the trip from a max range Kalista pull into throw. More than 75% of the time, you will fall out before he gets the chance to throw himself, unless the Kalista literally grabs him mid animation.
Tahm's is honestly rather frail as a support. He looks bulky, but often times his base defensive stats are so low that sure, he has twice the hp pool of an enemy, but he has 1/2 the defense though. He is also running on support income to become tanky enough to sit in a fight long enough to apply 3 stacks, on a target who often can blow him up in just as much time.
The eat-throw combo still only has a short range. You have to be within a pretty close range of Kalista's tower for it to be done. You have about 3-5 seconds to react and deny it by walking away from his slow self. At which point, they have blown 2 of their most important CDs to try a combo that works 10% of the time at best.

This combo is pretty much only even resembling a threat post level 9. Before then, Tahm just doesn't have enough W duration to make it happen, and it obviously can't happen pre 6 period except as a very expensive blitz pull. (as you will fall out before he goes far enough).

Also, with him maxing W in lane to do this, this means his overall lane pressure is non-existant almost. Either he is blowing long CD/high manacost Ws just to harass you with minion spits, he is consistently staying in range for you to tear him a new one to AA and/or land Qs, or he is doing nothing of any threat, and it puts all the pressure on Kalista to carry the lane.

OperationDEEZ1Jul 28, 20159 votes

Tahm eating you isn't his ultimate by the way.

TeemoXNidaleeJul 28, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Tahm eating you isn't his ultimate by the way.

my bad

OrlesJul 28, 20157 votes

And then a magical journey...

Lauricella3Jul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And then a magical journey...

magical journey doesn't work if you are carrying an enemy :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo2_4ZL5dgo

nujtuJul 29, 20152 votes

But kalista with a TK who has an enemy in his belly can,right?

Troy242621Jul 28, 20154 votes

{quoted}

And then a magical journey...

To the shopkeeper's house we go.

IcyPepperJul 28, 20155 votes

To be fair, that interaction is just a tad much.

RedCycloneJul 28, 201513 votes

yet Tahm can't interact with Bard or Thresh, for these reasons

so why the fuck can Kali interact with him

DurzakaJul 28, 20156 votes

Because it is Kalista's fucking ult. Rather than a basic ability with slightly longer than average cooldowns.

ChaoticPineconeJul 29, 20153 votes

So they decided to take away the interaction for Bard and Thresh, who are immoble supports, but allowed the interaction with an ADC (the best champion to be with as a support Taum) who has a mobility spell on each autoattack.

Sire HippingtonJul 29, 20151 votes

yet scarner and kallista aren't allowed to pull of such shit, despite both needing their ults...

DurzakaJul 29, 20151 votes

Kalista can? That is the discussion.

The Skarner youre talking about would be the enemy Skarner, very different discussion.

Sire HippingtonJul 29, 20152 votes

The Skarner youre talking about would be the enemy Skarner, very different discussion.

What are you talking about? If scarner ults a target, a allied kallista that uas soul-bound with him can't pull him in till the ult is finished, hence scarner+kallsta isn't allowed to pull of the same combo as tham+kallista, despite both needing their ultimate for it, while tham only needs a basic skill.

So your argument that kallistas ult is allowed to work with tham while thresh or bard do not simply because it's her ult is flawed.

Jesus Canaj 420Jul 29, 20151 votes

Because with skarner, when he ults, the enemy champion isn't considered "in him". So if kalista could ult, you'd just have the frozen enemy champion stay there while skarner is pulled away.

Sire HippingtonJul 30, 20151 votes

nope, scarners vicim always get's pulled into a certain range of him, just with some delay(like a rubberband). Dragging a victim over a wall cause of a slightly misstimed janna ult or alistar W happens sometimes....

foinhasJul 29, 20152 votes

because it's kalista...

DracidJul 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yet Tahm can't interact with Bard or Thresh, for these reasons

so why the fuck can Kali interact with him

this. They need to make it so she cant ult him. That is a tad silly

Jesus Canaj 420Jul 29, 20155 votes

literally blitzcrank and kalista can do this from further away, this isnt a new concept

CalabokJul 28, 20154 votes

So umm, what's the issue?

SoMNiaJul 29, 20154 votes

He needs to put three stacks on you. With autoattacks and one collision skillshot. He has no gap closer. Do not let him eat you.

RohirrimJul 29, 20154 votes

i know i will get downvoted,there is counterplay i agree but still riot did bad job making Tahm Kench...

foinhasJul 29, 20153 votes

why? it's the most balanced champion riot released in a loooooong time

EmbertineJul 29, 20152 votes

He basically has Kalista's ult as a basic ability, except he can also use it on enemies. He gets a shield worth the amount of HP he is missing, which makes him able to survive and tank almost anything. His Ult's passive makes it so he can build nothing but tanky HP and still do lots of damage, which goes along with his shield to make him even more freaking tanky because of all that extra armor, magic resist, and HP he has. And also its active is like a Rek'sai ult with the exception that you can take along an ally for a ride.

I hardly call that balanced really. He's like the ultimate utility champion. He's the single most tanky champion in game, and can still deal tons of damage despite building absolutely no attack items, while also being able to reposition both allies and enemies with ease. He makes Leona's tankiness seems like a piece of wet paper, and she used to be the queen of tanks!

foinhasJul 29, 20153 votes

yes, except his skills are extremly situational.

he can't stun unless he hits you 3 times he can't devourer unless he hits you 3 times his best way of engage is by denying him his ability to devourer champions for a good duration his ulti is very unreliable (panth tier)

frozen mallet alone counters him so much it's not even funny oh right, i forgot nobody builds it because lcs

Icestar1186Jul 28, 20153 votes

It's like the blitz/kalista combo. Incredibly hard to pull off if your opponent plays smart, but incredibly rewarding.

HaIlMonitorJul 28, 20153 votes

This one isnt nearly as hard. Blitz actually has to hit a skill shot and kalista has to watch for it. This one is much more of a pub stomp strategy.

Icestar1186Jul 28, 20155 votes

Tahm still needs 3 stacks. Easier said than done.

DurzakaJul 28, 20153 votes

And Tahm needs 3 stacks.

In order to pull this off, Kalista needs to let Tahm put himself into danger into the enemy team while staying at maximum range not contributing. Unlike with the Blitzcrank combo.