Tanks should have individual power curves just like any other class

Big Lincoln·Feb 2, 2017·90 votes·4,097 views

balancing them and all of their items around mid game strength is one of the biggest reasons they overlap so much and suffer from "this guy does something better than I do, so I am not meta" that is common with tanks.

there are early game supports, junglers, lane bullies -- there's even early game marksmen. shuffle tanks around to excel at certain parts of the game to better fit comps. Tank items should be a part of this curve as well, though I'm not sure how we can do that in the same vein as lethality vs crit depending on when you want to power spike.

129 Comments

LankPantsFeb 2, 201724 votes

Agreed, but this also means that Riot needs to get over the idea of damage always outscaling durability. It's OK as a general rule but it just can't always be applicable. If you're an early game ADC like Lucian, I'm playing Sejuani and we both have items I should have the advantage because my champion actually outscales yours.

Big LincolnFeb 2, 20179 votes

i wouldn't necessarily consider Sejuani to be the best example, due to no defensive steroids

if anything she's kind of a mix because she converts her health into raw damage instead of a bigger shield or having damage resistance. i think that should also be something that makes her stand out; trading extra defense for high damage in the late game.

it'd be a LOT easier to do this if she was an AD champion because there are items that support exactly that, that AP and pure tank itemization just don't offer for her. like item 3053 .

nm1010Feb 2, 20174 votes

due to no defensive steroids

https://i.gyazo.com/440269162ead2d9f503bf4d02265d3ba.png

Big LincolnFeb 2, 201711 votes

less than 2 cloth armors isn't a steroid that matters enough to be considered one

HeroquetFeb 2, 20177 votes

Plus they nerfed her armor by 5 the very day they give her that passive.

RalanrFeb 2, 20173 votes

I'd love if a lot of AP ratios on tanks were turned into AD ratios. It'd make sense on champions like Sejuani and Alistar.

LankPantsFeb 2, 20172 votes

Not really. Tanks, Shen excluded aren't really designed to sit around auto attacking. They're typically casters, they get their damage and CC almost entirely from spells. Giving them AD ratios really messes with this, it means that they'd want items with at least some AD on them, I think you'd see a lot of Titanic Hydra on tanks if this was the case. It turns them into caster/attacker hybrids, which is totally outside of what tanks are meant to be.

RalanrFeb 2, 20171 votes

It works for Sion.

LankPantsFeb 2, 20172 votes

Every tank is not Sion. It's also worth noting that Sion has a much higher share of Physical damage than most tanks, same goes for Poppy and J4 if you want to count him as a tank, which he sometimes is. These are the tanks with AD ratios, champs like Sej/Mumu/Insert almost any other tank here has more AP ratios and magic damage.

RalanrFeb 2, 20171 votes

He shares high physical damage because he has abilities that deal physical damage. I just think that some tanks should trade one or two of their magic damage abilities for physical damage so it can actually open some diversity in their builds.

Glory ln DeathFeb 2, 20172 votes

Or, Riot could add some actual tanky AP items. Rod of Ages is the only decently tanky AP item available, currently. Rylai's, Abyssal Scepter, and the two Hextech items don't have great tank stats and aren't really optimal for tanks.

RalanrFeb 2, 20173 votes

But then mages would build them because that's the problem with good AP items.

MelvearFeb 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

But then mages would build them because that's the problem with good AP items.

Then they need to rework tanks to have high base damage, shit ratios and have offensive tank item apply a buff to base spell damage, much like Sterakk's applies its boost to base AD.

RalanrFeb 2, 20172 votes

They have the first two.

RavenMagusFeb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted} and have offensive tank item apply a buff to base spell damage

Please no, tanks already have high base damage, we don't need them able to build even more damage along with their tankiness.

Big LincolnFeb 2, 20171 votes

but tanks already do a lot of auto attacking. Sejuani in particular is meant to right click a lot while her W is going off because it gives her so much extra DPS. Nautilus is encouraged to, Amumu encouraged to, etc

nm1010Feb 2, 20171 votes

in particular is meant to right click a lot while her W is going off because it gives her so much extra DPS.

You do know that only the first attack after activating w does bonus damage right? The rest of the damage is just passively around Sejuani.

Big LincolnFeb 2, 20173 votes

You do know that she still auto attacks because there's absolutely no reason not to, right?

nm1010Feb 2, 20171 votes

The way you said it made it sound like you thought the bonus damage applied multiple times and by picking her instead of Malphite or Rammus who do significantly more damage with autos kind of reinforced that tone.

If you did think that it would make this comment make a lot more sense

i think that should also be something that makes her stand out; trading extra defense for high damage in the late game.

Her damage is almost the lowest out of all tanks currently, and it certainly doesn't make her stand out late game. If anything does that it is her ability to almost perma slow/knock up people.

Big LincolnFeb 2, 20172 votes

I guess I worded it poorly, my mistake.

Sejuani's damage got halved in season 5; I don't think she's really recovered from that, and it's certainly been an issue when much tankier champions are doing far more damage.

MelledoneusFeb 2, 201712 votes

Shen Has a decent level 1, falls off at level 4, becomes strong again at level 9, becomes shitty after.

Yup, I like this power curve.

Big LincolnFeb 2, 20176 votes

they should figure out what they want shen to do specifically

they tried to make him a fighter/support/tank guy with the rework but it kinda fell through

MelledoneusFeb 2, 201711 votes

They gave him awesome tools but managed to make them shitty and awkward.

Imagine if Darius ult had a cast time that could be cancelled and his stacks lasted only half a second, while his passive lasted 2 seconds. That's how clunky Shen is.

Snowman ArcFeb 3, 20171 votes

I think Shen is alright. They tried to make him more of a fighter style that leans more to tank some of the fight and then disengage, rather than going all-in with damage,like Irelia, Fiora, RIven, Jax can. And the reason he can't do that is because he doesn't have an ultimate to use in that 1v1, because they wanted him to keep the one he has now, obviously, which is iconic for this kit.

I like Shen, and a lot of people underestimate him. They just think he is an ult bot that just snowballs bottom lane (which he can do really well). They don't realize how strong he is in the early levels, especially till 9 where he maxes his Q. His duelling power at any stage is awesome, maybe his weakest point is level 6 where he doesn't get an ulti. Level 1 is strong, with the empowered attacks, level 2 might be awkward, but level 3, 4 and 5 are strong. Gap closer with CC, a AA denial and an augmentation + the shields he's getting. When CoC was strong, he also went in, did 3 empowered AAs (like 30% of the enemy HP), and backed off, while taking no damage.

At level 9, he probably has Bami Cinder already, maybe even some more items (maybe the full Sunfire Cape, or a Tiamat), and he is very strong. The % max HP health is very strong. I still believe, based on the enemies, how fed you are and how you itemize, you might be able to 1v1 after 9. Like, if you build Titanic Hydra, while being tanky and maybe get some attack speed item, you can probably 1v1 more people that you can imagine.

Sire HippingtonFeb 2, 20173 votes

The big issue is his ult. As long as he has that massive global pressence, the rest of his kit has to be kept bad or he'll be broken in competetive and high elos.

MelledoneusFeb 3, 20171 votes

To be honest Shen's ult shouldn't even be eating that much of his power budget. It has a high cooldown, high risk, and mediocre defensive capabilities. Given the state of his kit his ult is worth a 15% max HP scaling in shield.

RavenMagusFeb 3, 20171 votes

Are you kidding? It has very little risk and provides enormous map pressure to his team. It provides even stronger gank opportunities than teleport - it's faster, it has a lower cooldown, it saves your teammate, and you get right into the thick of it rather than needing a ward nearby - and you can still have teleport up afterwards.

There was a point in time in which Shen was actually a competent duelist, able to hold his own in a 1v1 lane while still having his ult. During that period of time, he was pretty much pick or ban in every single game.

We all know how strong gang-banging bot with 4 man ganks is, and Shen makes that much easier.

MelledoneusFeb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Are you kidding? It has very little risk and provides enormous map pressure to his team.

He stands still channeling it, making him risky to use it in lane. Additionally, if he uses it to enter a fight and his ally dies before the channel is complete he can't make it.

^It provides even stronger gank opportunities than teleport - it's faster, it has a lower cooldown, it saves your teammate, and you get right into the thick of it rather than needing a ward nearby - and you can still have teleport up afterwards.

Teleport isn't MEANT for ganks. Also, if his ult had a longer cooldown than freaking teleport (which has more options as to what to teleport TO), then there'd really be an issue.

There was a point in time in which Shen was actually a competent duelist, able to hold his own in a 1v1 lane while still having his ult. During that period of time, he was pretty much pick or ban in every single game.

He was able to hold his own, but only because Titanic Hydra and Grasp was strong on him. They triple nerfed him through the item, the mastery, and himself.

We all know how strong gang-banging bot with 4 man ganks is, and Shen makes that much easier.

Then look at his win rate of 46% and tell me how much he's benefitting from that.

RavenMagusFeb 4, 20171 votes

He was able to hold his own, but only because Titanic Hydra and Grasp was strong on him. They triple nerfed him through the item, the mastery, and himself.

It was actually long before keystones. It was... mid season 4, or season 5? I forgot when. He had a minor rework a while back, and he came out of it as a really super strong duelist... and instantly became pick or ban until he got nerfed.

Then look at his win rate of 46% and tell me how much he's benefitting from that.

Considering he's a champion that scales the hardest with teamwork, I should hope that he does poorly in Yolo Queue. If he had 50%+ in Every Man For Himself Mode, he'd be flat out overpowered in actual team games.

AirKingNeoFeb 2, 20171 votes

He spikes back up at around 3 items again due to his shields.

YaskamasandwichFeb 2, 20175 votes

To this day I still think Sion, Sejuani, Malphite, and Maokai were late game champs. Ever since that force decree of all tanks are mid game, I've found some of them suffering. Still going to play Sion and Sejuani though.

Gregor GysiFeb 2, 20173 votes

I think there are some problems with what you say and what some people say here in the thread - eg it's kind of hard to create an early game "tank" because people think "tank" = "vanguard". And vanguards have CC by definition which means they generally do not fall off hard. However, Juggernauts could very well be considered "tanky" and "strong in the early, but falling off late".

So there are some problems that make it somewhat hard to create an "early game tank" and the like. Some other comparisons to ADCs for examples are somewhat missleading because marksman as a class are strong late - so when an "early game marksman" like Lucian kills a "strong lategame tank" like Sejuani then that's not necessarily a problem - especially seeing how tanks usually (!) don't compete with marksmen when it comes to a certain pick. The way that tanks and marksmen scale is somewhat connected because marksmen depend on protection to deal tons of DPS and tanks can protect but need someone to DPS in the lategame. That means together they outscale assassins and divers as a class (exceptions etc. are ofc there).

Now, nitpicking aside, I agree with you. As it is right now I really couldn't care less about whether we/they have a Nautilus or a Maokai toplane (aside from specific matchups that is). They offer about the same to their team, strong peel and lots of tankyness. Both fit into comps "that need a tank top" but further distinction is futile.

That is a problem that needs to be fixed and power curves may be one way to accomplish that

Tychusfindlay919Feb 2, 20172 votes

Sion should be THE late game tank.

They need to make his w passive weaker early and scale up very well with level.

This way he has to give up levelling bully abilities like Q and E to so that he can become that 8k HP monster, or he can max Q and E if he wants to be relevant earlier. Its like E max vs Q max nasus.

Ale non è maleFeb 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sion should be THE late game tank.

They need to make his w passive weaker early and scale up very well with level.

This way he has to give up levelling bully abilities like Q and E to so that he can become that 8k HP monster, or he can max Q and E if he wants to be relevant earlier. Its like E max vs Q max nasus.

Mundo is THE late game tank, dude (and Braum/Taric are the equivalent as tank supports)

Sion as the subtitle says is the undead JUGGERNAUT, he has infinite scaling but he shouldn't primarily tank, he should charge in and squash enemies even at the cost of dying (to then return as undead fighter to finish the job)

PermabannedGarenFeb 2, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6UlwlzAE,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-02-02T17:22:19.610+0000)

Mundo is THE late game tank, dude (and Braum/Taric are the equivalent as tank supports)

Sion as the subtitle says is the undead JUGGERNAUT, he has infinite scaling but he shouldn't primarily tank, he should charge in and squash enemies even at the cost of dying (to then return as undead fighter to finish the job)

Dr. Mundo isn't a tank, he's a fighter, specifically a juggernaut.

He's also not very good late game. Late game, while still tankier than almost every other champion, his ability to threaten the ADC in team fights falls off hard, since his sustained damage doesn't scale that well, and while he can still easily kill an isolated ADC one on one, in a team fight, which is the only place an ADC should be within Mundo's reach, he can't kill them through all the peel, shields, or heals from the ADC's team, and the ADC can DPS him down at this point.

Mundo spikes hardest in mid game, having enough damage to easily kill the ADC and being almost indestructible, since the ADC doesn't have percent pen and crit yet.

Ale non è maleFeb 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Dr. Mundo isn't a tank, he's a fighter, specifically a juggernaut.

He's also not very good late game. Late game, while still tankier than almost every other champion, his ability to threaten the ADC in team fights falls off hard, since his sustained damage doesn't scale that well, and while he can still easily kill an isolated ADC one on one, in a team fight, which is the only place an ADC should be within Mundo's reach, he can't kill them through all the peel, shields, or heals from the ADC's team, and the ADC can DPS him down at this point.

Mundo spikes hardest in mid game, having enough damage to easily kill the ADC and being almost indestructible, since the ADC doesn't have percent pen and crit yet.

WTF? Mundo is not a juggernaut at all, even though late game he manage to do so much damage if he can stick to the target thanks to his W being always toggled on and his Q being spammable

He is a pure, unadulterated tank, as he has a full health bar + 2/3 extra health bar to soak up enemy and tower damage - what kind of juggernaut can tank tower damage as well as Mundo can?

Not all the tanks are about locking down enemy carries, you know, as much as not all the supports should be heal + shield bots (and no, I am not talking only about the mages, I'm also talking about champs like Braum or Ali or Blitz sup)... some tanks are meant to be a meatshield brickwall to protect their own carries or to provide an impossible to ignore distraction tot he enemy team, cause if you can't keep Mundo down/ away from you he is going to murder you (try to ignore a Mundo...then se your ADC get f***ed)

Mundo spike in late game where his regen reach the top levels, while he should be behind early and playing catch-up mid and with two items (Sunfire + Visage) he still suffer some for tower shots and high amount of poke

Wet DrymanFeb 2, 20171 votes

Mundo IS a Juggernaut (official subclass list with examples provided by Riot http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list ). He doesn't provide any hard CC, he can't protect anyone, he can't peel, he can't engage. His kit is all about damage and healing himself to hurt enemy as much as possible. Even Jhin with tanky itemization can tank turrets but it doesn't make him tank (though because of snare he would be better as one than Mundo).

I'm also talking about champs like Braum or Ali or Blitz sup

Braum gives buffs to his allies, protects them with shield and peels with passive and R, Ali heals allies, peels with W and protects with Q, Blitzcrank is special snowflake and he doesn't fit into any class (but he brings tones of hard CC and lockdown).

some tanks are meant to be a meatshield brickwall to protect their own carries or to provide an impossible to ignore distraction tot he enemy team, cause if you can't keep Mundo down/ away from you he is going to murder you (try to ignore a Mundo...then se your ADC get f*ed)

You basically described Juggernauts role in teamfights. A damage threat that must be peeled of if you want to survive or a powerful frontline that can soak damage like a sponge.

PermabannedGarenFeb 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6UlwlzAE,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-02T20:05:34.463+0000)

WTF? Mundo is not a juggernaut at all, even though late game he manage to do so much damage if he can stick to the target thanks to his W being always toggled on and his Q being spammable

He is a pure, unadulterated tank, as he has a full health bar + 2/3 extra health bar to soak up enemy and tower damage - what kind of juggernaut can tank tower damage as well as Mundo can?

Not all the tanks are about locking down enemy carries, you know, as much as not all the supports should be heal + shield bots (and no, I am not talking only about the mages, I'm also talking about champs like Braum or Ali or Blitz sup)... some tanks are meant to be a meatshield brickwall to protect their own carries or to provide an impossible to ignore distraction tot he enemy team, cause if you can't keep Mundo down/ away from you he is going to murder you (try to ignore a Mundo...then se your ADC get f***ed)

Mundo spike in late game where his regen reach the top levels, while he should be behind early and playing catch-up mid and with two items (Sunfire + Visage) he still suffer some for tower shots and high amount of poke

Mundo is almost purely a damage threat. Very little CC and no utility means he has to be a threat through his damage. Hence, he's a juggernaut.

Trundle can. Garen comes close. If Mordekaiser can keep his shield up he can. What's your point though? Being the tankiest juggernaut doesn't mean he's not one.

All tanks are about utilizing their strong CC and/or utility to either lock down the enemy team or peel for their carry. Dr. Mundo is not a vanguard, he can't engage. He's not a warde, he's a poor peeler. He's a juggernaut meant to cause havoc in the enemy backline with his damage and stickiness, or force duels in side lines while splitpushing. His kit is loaded with damage, including one of the biggest AD steroids in the game. Dr. Mundo is intended to be a damage threat.

You're describing juggernauts. Juggernauts can't be ignored because they have the damage to easily kill your carries. Just like Dr. Mundo.

Ale non è maleFeb 3, 20171 votes

I just answered to the other guy above

Don't rely too much on Riot lists, they are actually a bit confused about juggernauts situation and that's why they are planning for a kind of tank rework, to clear up some inconsistency and reduce edge cases.

Look at the same article that is referenced in the post you linked what is the definition of tank classes:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

"Tanks excel in shrugging off incoming damage and focus on disrupting their enemies more than being significant damage threats themselves"

Which is EXACTLY Mundo description we both agreed upon above in the discussion.

He is placed into Juggernauts category only because he lack hard CC, he fit any other possibile description of tanks in this game stated by same Riot words...and he has far more in common with tanks rather than with champs like Nasus, Darius, Morde or Yorick.

Not all the tanks are about doing the same things, and Mundo has his own thing going for him as unique tank, just like other champs have their unique things going for them in other roles

But I want to point out some other things you said:

about tanking tower damage: "Trundle can. Garen comes close. If Mordekaiser can keep his shield up he can." WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SMOKING DUDE? Garen can come close to Mundo in tanking constant damage output received? That's one of the stupidest things ever said. Garen "tankiness" come almost entirely by his regen passive that gives sustain OUT of combat when he does not receive damage. If he get CCed under tower, especially if he is not using his high cooldown W- which he should save to be able jump into the enemy team without being istantly blowed up if a fight happens - he is taking considerable damage. He is one of the worst juggernaut/tanks for tanking towers in a siege situation, because he has not great tankiness, low regen/sustain in combat, and low mobility to get out. If he start tanking a pair of shots and get CCed while the tower has still enough health, he is in serious trouble. Morde shield is something you can't rely on in those siege situations, because the shield is built upon doing damage in combat, which is not happening when you are sieging and so basically the shield is decaying or has yet decayed. He has even lower sustain and mobility to get out. Morde can reliably siege only if he has the ghost tanking for him, but this require having succesfully killed some enemy with the ult or the drake. Trundle is by far the best of the three guys you mentioned for sieging, but not because his ability of tanking damage, he is actually not good at doing that, he is good because he can zone enemy away from defending tower with the pillars or use the pillar to escape cutting enemy chase path (enhanced by his W). **Trundle is also the guy who is the farthest away from Juggernaut and closer to tank definition among the mentioned ** by the way, as pillar is a tool that allows them to initiate and peel as proof of that he hs been succesfully used as support, which is a thing other Juggernauts can't do (heck, he was even specifically mentioned as been as Warden-Juggernaut Hybrid in the original article about subclasses)

RalanrFeb 2, 20171 votes

Think Sion works better as a lane bully or late game?

Big LincolnFeb 2, 20177 votes

right now? probably better in lane

ideally? late game, him and Sejuani

YourQQFeb 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Think works better as a lane bully or late game?

Sion late is shit.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoFeb 2, 20171 votes

what about Maokai

Big LincolnFeb 2, 201756 votes

he should be strongest when near trees

oSEXYPLATYPUSoFeb 2, 201714 votes

but for real... he is a mid to late game scaling champ

and he has a power curve in his kit...

its best to abuse him and kill him early and dont let him get the holy trio

item 3025 item 3068 item 3065

An Undead bratFeb 2, 20174 votes

Except you can't 1v1 him with item 3751 (same as every tank) which is very cheap and then he already has his items. There's literally no window to abuse him.