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I find it very hard to justify getting Sunfire - I even thought this before Ciderhulk was a thing.

ABlueQuaker··14 votes·2,992 views

Why get item 3068 when you can get item 3143 which is a far better item for increasing your effective HP against Physical Damage. Couple its superior stats with its Cold Steel Passive (which stacks with Frozen Heart's Aura by the way) and its Active, I see no reason to get Sunfire Cape.

Out of all of the Tanks we've been seeing lately, I can't think of one who doesn't have sufficient pushing power with their basic abilities in combination with the CDR from item 3110 and item 3065 which most Tanks should be getting anyway. No, seriously. Maokai, Sion, Mundo, Gnar, Shyvana, Hecarim, Irelia, Renekton. The list goes on and on. They have wave clear for days. If anything, Sunfire limits your pushing power because its Aura draws turret aggro.

I would maybe, MAYBE get it as a situational pseudo-offensive item to stack its Magic Damage with item 3075 , but even then I'd probably prefer item 3102 item 3800 or even item 3083.

If I were to rework Sunfire Cape, for Argument's sake, I'd probably do it alongside a Soft Randuin's Omen Rework.

Sunfire Cape item 3082 + item 3751 + 800g = item 3068 (2850g) +500 Health +70 Armor UNIQUE Passive - Cold Steel: When hit by basic attacks, reduces the attacker's Attack Speed by 15%. UNIQUE Toggle - Immolate: Deals 2/3/4/5% Current HP as Magic Damage per second to nearby enemies (Maximum Damage to minions: 25 + 1 per champion level). Immolate can remain toggled as long as its charges remain. 1 charge is consumed per second, and 1 charge is restored for every 2 seconds that immolate isn't active. % Current HP increases at levels 1, 6, 11 and 16.

Randuin's Omen item 3082 + item 1011 + 800g = item 3143 (2850g) +500 Health +70 Armor UNIQUE Passive - Cold Steel: When hit by basic attacks, reduces the attacker's Attack Speed by 15%. UNIQUE Active: Slows the Movement Speed of nearby enemy units by 35% and the Attack Speed of nearby enemy units by 15% for 2 seconds (+1 second per 200 Armor and +1 second per 200 Magic Resist). The Attack Speed reduction stacks with Cold Steel Passive (60 second cooldown).

This would create clear identities for each item, as well as introduce decision making when choosing items as the Cold Steel Passive is Unique.

42 Comments

Laraso10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Arrow,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6P6QT1Ez,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-24T02:38:08.829+0000)

Out of all of the Tanks we've been seeing lately, I can't think of one who doesn't have sufficient pushing power with their basic abilities

Shen

ABlueQuaker3 votes
  1. I rarely see him in Ranked or Normals and he had a very low Pick Rate in the LCS Spring Split and Playoffs.
  2. He's being reworked as we speak.
  3. He's being played primarily as a Challenging Smite Cinderhulk Top Lane Champion anyway.

But, yes. His kit has no inbuilt wave clear.

Venowolf4 votes

Malphite its one that really help with the Sunfire.

ABlueQuaker3 votes

Eh, there's still better items for him.

I've played Malphite quite extensively - I have built him Full AP, Full AD, AD Bruiser, AP Bruiser, AP Off-Tank, Full Tank. Never have I ever purchased a Sunfire Cape on him.

EDIT 1: I tell a lie, I did built it on him once when I was pre-level 30.

EDIT 2: There is a good case for Sunfire Cape if you're building him as an AP Off-Tank with something along the lines of item 3020 item 3110 item 3068 item 3065 item 3151 item 3001. But even then, Randuin's Omen, Thornmail or even Zhonya's Hourglass are all also suitable options/

Venowolf2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Arrow,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6P6QT1Ez,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-04-24T12:46:56.782+0000)

Eh, there's still better items for him.

I've played Malphite quite extensively - I have built him Full AP, Full AD, AD Bruiser, AP Bruiser, AP Off-Tank, Full Tank. Never have I ever purchased a Sunfire Cape on him.

EDIT: I tell a lie, I did build it on him once when I was pre-level 30.

Sunfire helps him too pushing lane better IMO.

ABlueQuaker2 votes

Look, build what you want. Fact of the matter is that if there's a Malphite with a full tank build that includes Randuin's Omen, and one with a full tank build that includes Sunfire Cape the one with the Randuin's Omen is going to be the better tank. He will live longer and he will have more impact in fights.

I can't stress enough how sh*tty the damage from Sunfire is (even against AD Carries) as soon as their Jungler/Support gets a Locket and the ADCs base MR/level, MR/level glyphs and the 5% Armor and MR amplification from the Enchanted Armor mastery start to really build up.

The average squishy champion with a player on their team with Locket ends up with roughly ~80.85 MR just from Runes, Masteries and Locket.

Sunfire cape's damage is near-useless in an actual fight.

Venowolf1 votes

The really bad part of Sunfire is the turret aggro part, the damage can be slighted buffed too.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

And then there´s an Ap-Bruiser-build including Sunfire and some magic-pen working out pretty darn well, as you blow up the adc anyway at the beginning of the fight.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

See the suggestion in the Original Post. ;D

Beoridas1 votes

its situational. Sion for instance. doesnt need that 25 xtra armor or that 50 hp for the cost difference. he gets his health and shield. and sunfire dmg helps him a great way since hes in the fights a long time.

also renduins is specific for attack speed reliant champs, specially if there is more than one (lets say vayne and yi is in the enemy) rather than corki the only adc in the enemy team.

ABlueQuaker2 votes

But, see, the thing is that it's not a priority item. It shouldn't be. The way I see it, if you get it first you end up with less effective HP against Physical Damage than if you got item 3143 , and less damage than if you got item 3153 item 3074 item 3078 item 3151 or item 3027 (your standard first items if you're building a Bruiser or Off-Tank).

If you get it as anything other than a first item, however, it's use is even less valuable as you're probably not building any Magic Penetration so therefore the Damage it provides becomes less and less as the enemy team gets levels (and their resistances increase) and items.

Beoridas2 votes

like i said. its situational. there isnt a GREAT deal of difference btw the two besides one being more offensively focused and the other one defensively. it still has great stats. Also, when you are ahead top lane for instance, its great for wave clear and accentuate your tankyness AND dmg without risk.

The best with that item are Sion, Maokai, Renekton, Shyvana, Shen, Malphite

ABlueQuaker2 votes

I wouldn't exactly call item 3143 Defensively-focused. A lot of the time it's actually used Offensively - especially on the likes of Gragas Maokai Sejuani Amumu Shyvana who can use their gap closers to get into the middle of the Enemy team and then use its Active to slow the whole Enemy team.

Sunfire is such a potentially good item, but if you're playing a Tank and your build is item 3111 item 3143 item 3102 item 3110 item 3065 item 3075 as an example (this is actually my general purpose 'Full Tank' for Champions that Lane) Sunfire is generally purchased instead of item 3143.

If and/or when you get to your mid-to-late game team fights, Randuin's Omen is the better option any day of the week.

B2B The Coach1 votes

with both frozen heart and thronail, i largely prefer a warmog over omen. Sunfire is better too over omen. you really have no reason for have more than 250/300 armor, so better build some damage (and a sunfire can do a lot of aoe damage during a long teamfight).

ABlueQuaker2 votes

Sunfire does next to no damage as soon as someone gets a Locket and then Poof! you realize how much better off you would have been with Randuin's Omen.

Besides, saying that you purchase Randuin's Omen for its stats is like saying you purchase item 3111 for Magic Resist. The most important thing about Randuin's is its Passive and Active.

Warmog's is probably a fair purchase, but even then I would get it over item 3102 rather than item 3143 like I stated in the Original Post. I'd probably even rather item 3800 over item 3083 though, to be quite honest.

DrathTurtle3141 votes

Actually, magic resist is exactly why I buy item 3111. Otherwise I would buy item 3009, more movement speed at a lower cost :)

Apollocliptic1 votes

I wouldn't build Randuins on Maokai, righteous glory has the same benefit in that sense, but makes up for his tremendous need for mana, early through to late. It also offers more hp, with Righteous glory in hand, building randuins seems like a waste, sure another slow pulse is always handy, but aid of a sunfire will probably be more helpful. Maokai has a weaker gap closer in terms of range, but once he gets in range, you rarely escape him, so randuins doesn't tend to be necessary that's how these items differ and can be situational.

Randuins passive helps with offensive plays but IS primarily a defensive item. It's trigger by being attacked and offers among the best hp and armour stats in the game. Sunfire offers less armour and HP but in return offers DPS. Sometimes my core build gets me to 200 armour before a randuins, at that point I don't need another 70, or where as randuins instead of one of my other items would get me up to 230/240, I lose a lot of the utility and other benefits from my current build. It is a situational item that is not CORE build

Apollocliptic1 votes

I wouldn't build Randuins on Maokai, righteous glory has the same benefit in that sense, but makes up for his tremendous need for mana, early through to late. It also offers more hp, with Righteous glory in hand, building randuins seems like a waste, sure another slow pulse is always handy, but aid of a sunfire will probably be more helpful. Maokai has a weaker gap closer in terms of range, but once he gets in range, you rarely escape him, so randuins doesn't tend to be necessary that's how these items differ and can be situational.

Randuins passive helps with offensive plays but IS primarily a defensive item. It's trigger by being attacked and offers among the best hp and armour stats in the game. Sunfire offers less armour and HP but in return offers DPS. Sometimes my core build gets me to 200 armour before a randuins, at that point I don't need another 70, or where as randuins instead of one of my other items would get me up to 230/240, I lose a lot of the utility and other benefits from my current build. It is a situational item that is not CORE build

[{quoted}](name=Red Arrow,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6P6QT1Ez,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-24T06:27:21.664+0000)

I wouldn't exactly call item 3143 Defensively-focused. A lot of the time it's actually used Offensively - especially on the likes of Gragas Maokai Sejuani Amumu Shyvana who can use their gap closers to get into the middle of the Enemy team and then use its Active to slow the whole Enemy team.

Sunfire is such a potentially good item, but if you're playing a Tank and your build is item 3111 item 3143 item 3102 item 3110 item 3065 item 3075 as an example (this is actually my general purpose 'Full Tank' for Champions that Lane) Sunfire is generally purchased instead of item 3143.

If and/or when you get to your mid-to-late game team fights, Randuin's Omen is the better option any day of the week.

Also, that build on a tank, with tank runes and masteries, is looking at 300 - 350 armour and offers little in terms of other options. as I said, on Mana hungry or low engage champs I'd go righteous glory instead of randuins for the hp and gap closer. (randuins is better if you have a really good gap closer, like Wukong and Malphite). The Mr is unnecessarily high too, so I might go iron locket instead of banshee (situational), as I've said, iceborn can be more useful than frozen heart for AoE dmg and slows, and thorn is ALWAYS situational, and can be a big waste on some teams. I'd usually go Sunfire OR thorn, unless I feel like getting both, in which I wouldn't waste time on Randuins and Frozen heart, because my armour would be uselessly high

So yeah, I wouldn't use Randuins OR sunfire, righteous glory is the alternative to randuins, where frozen heart offers enough armour to make up the loss. Sunfire instead of thorn and you're still over 200 armour but MUCH more hp, and with passives from Volibear and Maokai that scale with HP, you are tankier (effectively 5000, more so if the fight drags or you have full build plus potions)

revliledpembroke1 votes

Thornmail as part of your generally build? I only buy it if the team is like AD Top, AD Mid, AD Jungle, with the ADC. Or in a game with an ADC at like 64516464/3 or something.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I get it and sit on the Enemy ADC's face the whole game. Trust me this sh*t works. Nullify the Enemy ADC, win the teamfight. Tanks currently nullify AD Carries. Build to nullify the AD Carry, you will nullify the Enemy ADC.

Before the Tank Meta I probably would have gone RoA/Righteous/Liandry's to fill this slot.

arcinex1 votes

I got sunfire for waveclear srs. I don't play top anymore.

Miku Lv991 votes

Sion especially should get Cinderhulk instead. After the +25% bonus health, it gives a huge amount more health than the Sunfire Cape, and still provides some armor and a damage aura, so there's nothing nearly as much better about Sunfire as the +25% bonus health you get from the Cinderhulk.

Randuins kinda works against all physical attackers. Even someone like Corki will still have to bombard you with a lot more physical damage to kill you than if you didn't have Randuins and it can also slow him. It just gives such high raw stats that it really does increase your staying power by a lot, and noticably more than Sunfire Cape. And a little damage aura isn't nearly as good as movespeed slow and attack speed slow in the late game.

IMO Sunfire Cape is essentially useless now. Maybe someone that doesn't care that much about health so they don't want Cinderhulk but still want the armor could consider it. Oh wait, everyone that wants armor also wants health so that they get as much staying power as they should out of that armor. Well, except maybe Taric since he actually scales off of armor. Maybe he could be the only champion left that could consider a Sunfire Cape.

Sirsir1 votes

Randuins is for Bruisers, its an anti-kiting tool. Tanks are generally the least auto'd in the midst of a teamfight, They DO however sit in the enemy team (or on someone diving yours) for long enough to make use of it. It kind of works as their 'offensive' item in addition to Thornmail.

Or for Waveclear. That too

And of course all of this was BEFORE Cinderhulk and the gromp buff. Basically with the scaling stats it invalidates Sunfire pretty hard if you can make it past early

Daedalus8711 votes

I never did get why you should get Sunfire over Randuins.

Shen and Voli are pretty much the only guys who have trouble pushing.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I usually get Hydra/BotRK on Voli and Shen anyway so it's never been an issue for me (I like playing them as drain tanks).

DeloricVI1 votes

Sunfire always has been in a strange place; as a noob I thought it was great, armor, health, and damage, but sunfire doesn't do that much damage, honestly. Most of the time in lane, you're too far away for sunfire to do much of anything, you mentioned randuin's has better stats and an active ability as well, and the only tank it really makes sense on is amumu, because of his aoe spells, and the fact that he's a jungler.

Also, sunfire is a big no-no in the early game jungle. It's so annoying because walking past camps will make them attack you. As a Sion jungler, this is really annoying because part of his sustain is getting a cheap shot with a fully charged q on them before they do anything. Not to mention it's a noob support trap in soloqueue. People that don't main support get sunfire cape mobi boots which is very bad in lane. If you walk to close to the minion wave like you normally have to to get positioned correctly to try to go in for a kill, your mobi boots will go inactive because sunfire drew aggro from the minions. So annoying.

Overall, I have to agree; I even avoid bami's cinder if I can't buy cinderhulk straight away after my first round of clears/ganks for the reasons I mentioned. The only real time I see it doing anything is a tank that gets into the middle of everyone in a teamfight, like amumu or maybe sion, but in most cases it's obsolete to cinderhulk or something else with better stats :/

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I agree. To be fair, though, the only reason I don't replace item 3717 with something like item 3800 item 3102 or item 3083 when I have 6 items is because Challenging Smite scales so well into late game. Cinderhulk itself isn't that OP, but it is when you compare it to the other Smites in the late game.

And believe me, before Cinderhulk + Challenging smite was a thing I used to just get Blasting Smite on Warrior/Magus/Cinderhulk and try to get to 5 items as soon as possible and then sell the jungle item for Warmog's, Banshee's or Righteous Glory.

Apollocliptic1 votes

I'd make a quick suggestion: If you were gonna do that, make the sunfire item slow down movement speed, to greater emphasise the benefit of having the enemy take damage from being near you (instead of the slow attack speed) and lower the HP threshold, since it's already a def + offence item, a heavy defence item like Randuins should offer more hp and armour (sunfire should always have lower armour and hp offered that randuins, in exchange for DPS)

On a side note, I find sunfire very useful for pure tanks like Maokai, who even if you build AP, doesn't generate a lot of damage. I usually go Iceborn instead of frozen heart because the passive helps him waveclear and the mana helps a lot too. Sunfire + iceborn gives him damage just for sticking to his enemies, while tanking and applying endless cc whereas sunfire on Renek stacks with his ultimate for surprising dps, if he builds damage too he tends to shred enemies quite quickly.

The sunfire + thorn combo is an ideal combo for "front line" pure tank builds, on champs that don't build damage easily, like Maokai or shen. Replacing them with Righteous Glory and Banshees veil as you suggest doesn't make sense because they do not offer even remotely similar things. Having banshee and righteous on NON-damage dealing builds just emphasises your tanky nature, doesn't provide anything you're lacking, whereas thorn can be a good front line tank item, and sunfire is useful if your focus is defending (like on a support) where you are providing a subtle damage buff to your adc, while peeling.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

oh well, the dmg for teamfights and pushing is definitely a valid reason to get sunfire. Though I wouldn´t mind if some sort of lategame-upgrade would be available.

Dominnion1 votes

Sunfire is good, it gives early game killing and pushing power. It falls off late game for sure

Saianna1 votes

"UNIQUE Toggle - Immolate: Deals 2/3/4/5% Current HP as Magic Damage per second to nearby enemies (Maximum Damage to minions: 25 + 1 per champion level). "

Even as current HP, it's just soo huge amount. Easily chewing 30-40% hp.

I'd say leave it as is with damage scalling. Or make something like "your AA targets recieve bonus damage"

qetzel1 votes

  1. I can't think of a single champion who would choose Randuins over the new Sunfire.

  2. A toggle on Sunfire would be a major buff. Part of the thing keeping it remotely balanced is the lack of toggle.

  3. Early Season 4, I think, perhaps late season 3 - the last time we really saw tanks/tanky bruisers in the top lane - sunfire was almost mandatory on top laners. The way to win games was to sit on top of the enemy carries with large AOEs. Sunfire was an incredibly powerful item and the nerf was one of the things that precipitated a change in the meta. Sunfire has the potential to become OP again - don't let it. This leads me on to...

  4. The power of AOE DOTs like sunfire isn't exactly obvious. It is hard to guage their power effectively. When sunfire was strong, while it was helping to win games in a big way its power wasn't really noticed. It was only when it was nerfed that most people (some of the higher ELOs noticed) realised how much work it was doing. YOu need to be really careful when buffing items like this.

Although 5) I really like it when people propose solutions rather than just complain. It is very hard not to sound patronising or condescending when giving congratulations on line, but well done.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Garen

Sunfire is actually an incredibly good item and its new build order makes it waaaay better. Its very good for pushing lanes or pushing against champions trying to push lanes. Its very good for being in the middle of a teamfight and while its damage is not obvious, it does rack up quite a bit. Randuins is a good item too but honestly as a first item it doesn't offer much in laning phase against most Top laners. Most tanky champions don't need Attack Speed or Movespeed because they rely on their tankiness to survive. So Cold Steel doesn't help much in a fight between two tanks, Immolate on the other-hand deals constant Magic Damage, which is good because most Tanks build Armor first, depending on the situation of course, to counter ADC's. There are situations where Randuin's Omen is better to buy first, but i think most of the time Sunfire is better, also its cheaper.

Toggle on Sunfire would be too big a buff to it. Risk and Reward, Risk is turret aggro and Reward is damage.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

sunfire gives you a little more damage which helps you with waveclear and laning. its also slightly cheaper.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

You get sunfire if you want a defensive Item that increases your offensive power at the same time. You also buy it to increase AoE damage and more waveclear. Also, if you run offensive tree (Which some bruisers actually get more from Garen ), sunfire cape is also amplified, meaning it will usually be dealing about 42 damage per tick around level 11 to all nearby targets.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Sunfire Cape has always had inferior stats to Randuin's Omen because being able to deal damage over time was so strong. Increasing the stats to make it comparable to Randuins would either push Randuins into unviability or make Randuins and Sunfire the only viable armor items in the entire game because both would be really good.

Adding a toggle to Sunfire Cape makes it even more favorable to Randuin's because the downside it had before is no longer present. Adding the Cold Steel passive even further removes any sort of viability that Randuin's Omen had.

And even then we still might not see Sunfire Cape because Cinderhulk is so strong.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

You don't see sunfire a lot in competitive but I think it's really strong in solo queue. Sunfire does not allow for wave management so it is rarely used by the pros, but sunfire does do a lot of AOE damage over the course of a teamfight on a strong tank and it makes pushing lanes much easier, particularly if your AOE abilities are mana intensive. I like running Sunfire on many champions; coupling it with a thornmail gives you a lot of potential magic damage. Randuin's does give you more effective health, but if you gave Sunfire the Cold Steel passive, Warden's mail would be OP. It would give it way too many build paths. Part of item balance is making sure an item is limited in it's build path. If a mid-tier item can build into multiple items of comparable strength, it becomes too strong due to it's flexibility.

Sunfire is an offensive item primarily, even if it gives defensive stats. Randuin's is seeing some possible changes giving it AS for each champion affected by its active, which will finally give some offensive power to the item. If these changes go live, I think we can expect some sunfire buffs. As it stands, however, Randuin's only offensive property is an AOE slow, which is more of a utility property honestly. Sunfire does give less effective health, but it is useful in helping a tank deal damage which will affect how long the fight lasts.

I agree that in many situations, Randuin's will be better as a defensive item. Sunfire is an old item concept that's major flaw may be that it is always on, which does not allow for anything but hard pushing lanes, but that might actually be good for item balance. I think a good suggested buff to sunfire would be to have a toggle effect on Immolate. It could also just use a small buff to the damage to make it a definite better lane item than Cinderhulk.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well making Sunfire deal % current health is pretty good as it incentives the the enemy to deal with the tanks (just like Nautilus shield and Sion shield does)

ABlueQuaker1 votes

And making it % Current HP instead of % Maximum HP stops it from being overbearing.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Bump?

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