Can we take 15 AP off of Rylai's, give it 100/150 HP, buff the slow, and nerf Cass' E again?

WoonStruck·Mar 9, 2017·23 votes·2,365 views

#Rylai's, currently, is only being abused on bot lane 'supports' as a moderately high AP item with a very modest cost. That's about it.

How about we push it back towards a real niche: Champions who lack CC who don't mind giving up a little AP for the ability to actually function in a game.

A significant buff for single target slows would be in order, and a very minor buff for AoE.

Nerf Cass' E because it USED to count as AoE/DoT for the purposes of spellvamp and Rylai's, and during her shit-tier rework, they removed that in an attempt to make the rework less trash. Now that she isn't trash, it should be there again. It was there for a reason since season 1 or 2. Put it back.

######Edit: For clarity, Cass' E would function the same as now with the buffed Rylai's, but other champions who need a larger slow/duration to function decently would get more mileage out of it.

95 Comments

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 201711 votes

Nerf Cass again .-. why tho?

Nerf Rylais again? .-. It just got nerfed?

Oh, oh but you play vlad, so this would be a buff to you, and a nerf twice to cass, yeah good one

WoonStruckMar 9, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-09T18:45:36.118+0000)

Nerf Cass again .-. why tho?

Its been shown in competitive that she likely still needs nerfs anyway

This specific nerf would be due to the slow on Rylai's getting buffed, and a penalty that she had for a very clear reason being reinstated because it IS a justified penalty.

Nerf Rylais again? .-. It just got nerfed?

You think Rylai's losing 15 AP, but gaining 100 or 150 HP and a decent slow is a nerf? Please explain your thought process, because its pretty illogical from where I'm standing.

Oh, oh but you play vlad, so this would be a buff to you, and a nerf twice to cass, yeah good one

It would not be a buff to me any more than it would be a buff to anyone else. Vlad would rather have AP than HP too.

But if lower AP and higher AP is what it takes to not make the item must-have on all APs when Rylai's is decent, then so be it.

Vlad would only gain 6-9 damage depending on 100 or 150 HP on his E. Meanwhile he'd lose 40+ from REQ.

The goal is to make Rylai's usable for its passive. Not make it a stat-stick with a slow. Sorry that I firmly believe things should have trade-offs in order to be balanced.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20176 votes

Rylais went from 40% slow to 20% slow

WoonStruckMar 9, 20174 votes

And?

What does that have to do with anything I've posted here?

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20174 votes

The Rylais nerf was huge considering 20% of it's effectiveness was taken away, you seem to have left that out.

WoonStruckMar 9, 20174 votes

Did I not say "buff the slow"?

A significant buff for single target slows would be in order, and a very minor buff for AoE.

Also, the slow duration was a larger nerf than the slow amount.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20173 votes

I don't get why this would take place though, Rylais is not in a bad spot, ultility, not as much ap, and health, ap version of item 3022

This change would mean... You are nerfing cassio because you want an item changed.

That Makes No Sense

Cassio is in a decent spot Not the best champ Not op But in a spot where she can have a decent pick or ban rate Not bad Pretty good actually But in a spot where she doesn't need nerfs

Besides, she did just get nerfed, they removed her ult backwards mechanic and called it a bug for no reason. (fight me)

Besides, Cassio doesn't build Rylais as much anymore

WoonStruckMar 9, 20173 votes

The change isn't supposed to be specific to Cass in anyway. The slow nerf would most likely make it unchanged in regards to Rylai's current form, while buffing it for the champions that actually need it.

Its a buff to the champions who actually need Rylai's, because they need to be a bit tankier.

Also they need a decent slow.

Your bias towards Cassiopeia is clearly clouding your judgement.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20175 votes

You LITERALLY SAID >nerf Cass' E again IN THE TITLE

WoonStruckMar 9, 20174 votes

Because it would be necessary.

Do you not know what balance is? Apparently not.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20174 votes

So to change 1 item You HAVE TO nerf a champ How about no

WoonStruckMar 9, 20174 votes

Considering purchasing Rylai's would be the ONLY way she'd ever feel the nerf, and Rylai's just so happens to be the item being changed, yes.

Very yes.

Wow do you not understand interactions?

ToastersaotMar 9, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T19:30:00.005+0000)

So to change 1 item You HAVE TO nerf a champ How about no

One champion is one champion, while changes to itemization could mean that an entire class could become better or worse. For example, anyone who could use Lethality items was buffed ( Jhin Varus Talon Jayce Khazix Rengar Zed ) when Riot buffed the stats and items. A change to item 3116 , specifically increasing utility and tankiness while nerfing the damage of it would probably lead to the indirect nerf of Bot lane supports who don't want the Health that much and the buff of AP bruisers and Tanks, like Singed , Mordekaiser , Zac , Gragas and Amumu . I am biased as a Vladimir main, but almost all of the champions up there need some help right now. A buff to one of their items could help them all quite a bit.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20172 votes

True, but proposing just cause we buff an item that might be good on one champ, we have to immediately nerf that champ *cough Cassiopeia Seems a bit ridiculous.

ToastersaotMar 9, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-09T19:43:55.188+0000)

True, but proposing just cause we buff an item that might be good on one champ, we have to immediately nerf that champ *cough Seems a bit ridiculous.

So I think OP's idea is to revert the utility aspect of Rylai's, where it would slow for 40% on single target spells. Now imagine current Cassiopeia with a 40% permaslow. OP's idea is just to recode 's E to apply the Rylai's slow for a DoT, where it is only the current 20%. So basically, her interaction with item 3116 will be the same as it is now.

ToastersaotMar 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T19:13:40.578+0000)

I don't get why this would take place though, Rylais is not in a bad spot, ultility, not as much ap, and health, ap version of

This change would mean... You are nerfing cassio because you want an item changed.

That Makes No Sense

Cassio is in a decent spot Not the best champ Not op But in a spot where she can have a decent pick or ban rate Not bad Pretty good actually But in a spot where she doesn't need nerfs

Besides, she did just get nerfed, they removed her ult backwards mechanic and called it a bug for no reason. (fight me)

Besides, Cassio doesn't build Rylais as much anymore

She is perfectly fine for solo que, but she suffers from the same problems like Vladimir , Ryze , Azir and Taliyah . If they are good at the Bronze-Plat level in Solo que, they break Diamond+, including competitive.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20171 votes

Azir is garbage tho .-. Taliyah is meh, Vlad isn't bad, not exactly good, Ryze.... well he's ryze, and will get reworked soon I am sure

ToastersaotMar 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-09T19:36:05.746+0000)

Azir is garbage tho .-. Taliyah is meh, Vlad isn't bad, not exactly good, Ryze.... well he's ryze, and will get reworked soon I am sure

Azir and Taliyah already got the nerf bat because of the reason I have previously stated: They were too good in high elo/competitive. Azir in particular has many similarities to Cassiopeia , specifically an ability to stop dashes ( Azir Ult and W), high sustained magic damage, hyper scaling, immense kiting potential, high skill cap, and conditional but powerful CC on their ults.

Kukan SeishinMar 9, 20171 votes

Then if she is so good and always picked in competitive, why isn't Orianna Nerfed too?

You do have a good point though, props to you for that

Votable JesterMar 9, 20173 votes

Ori gets nerfed when she dominates pro play, but most of the time she's just a reliable pick.

When Azir and Taliyah were strong, they warped the game around them. Azir required specific picks just to go even against him in lane, and scaled extremely well. Taliyah instantly cleared mid lane, roamed to side lanes, and required either flash or some mobility skill to escape from her ult.

They were also about pick/ban level when they were strong.

Ori on the other hand provides decent aoe damage and utility to her team. She's hardly ever oppressive without a significant lead on her opponent, and nearly every champ becomes oppressive in pro play when they develop a lead.

ToastersaotMar 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T19:48:19.828+0000)

Then if she is so good and always picked in competitive, why isn't Nerfed too?

You do have a good point though, props to you for that

She might. Not because she is god tier, but she may slowly become god tier because everyone around her is gettting nerfed ( Leblanc just got hit pretty hard, Ryze just got nerfed and will probably get nerfed some more) , so she might become number one Mid laner because everyone else get nerfed.

ToastersaotMar 9, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N2pmmlg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-09T18:45:36.118+0000)

Nerf Cass again .-. why tho?

Nerf Rylais again? .-. It just got nerfed?

Oh, oh but you play vlad, so this would be a buff to you, and a nerf twice to cass, yeah good one

She is consistently strong in competitive, I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf her soon. She's basically an ADC in mage form, and her consistent DPS that isn't really gated that much by cooldowns is very good at shredding tanks.

Leu07Mar 11, 20171 votes

Honestly, I have seen some cass games in the Pro-scene. Most of them do mediocre on her and she ends up with punny scores. Cassiopeia is a hard to use champ with really cripling weaknesses. You really cant nerf Cassiopeia, she is mostly only picked against Ryze and even then, she gets sometimes destroyed. She is pretty weak early game and needs help from her team to go through mid-game so she can reach her lategame, and yet, she can be counterplayed so easily, she is a short range dps (no burst, Burst>Dps) and she needs to constantly land her Q in order to be efficent, this micro-management can get easily punished by opponents zig-zagging) she virtually has a pontential stun, pretty short range and easy to counterplay. Soo, you really cant nerf her because she is has clear weaknesses. I am not saying she is weak either, she brings really nice raw damage to the table, but thats it really.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 9, 20176 votes

E is the Twin Fangs right?

Also I wouldn't mind buying a giants belt to build into rylais again.

WoonStruckMar 9, 20171 votes

Yes, E is Twin Fangs.

I wouldn't mind it actually becoming the AP Frozen Mallet alternative.

650 HP, 60ish AP. Of course, that would come with a price increase (~3100-3200), dragging the item further away from support.

ParoeMar 9, 20173 votes

it has 300 health and 75AP. 150 health and 50AP isnt an item. thats a component.

We need to INCREASE AP across the board, not take more AP away. Watch some old league videos and youl see an asotnishing 400AP with item 3157 item 1058 item 1026 item 1056 and runes.

I could agree with reducing rylais stats and making it a component of an expensive high AP item. item 1011 (1000g)+ item 1026 (850)+150g = item 3116 (2000g) (300HP - loses 80HP) (2000g)+ item 1058 (1250g) +350g = something new (3600g)

Something new: 300HP 120AP Single target basic abilities slow enemies by 20% for 1 second. AoE abilities slow enemies by 15% for 0.5 seconds Pets slow enemies by 15% for 0.75 seconds

AhristocatsMar 9, 201711 votes

{quoted}

We need to INCREASE AP across the board, not take more AP away. Watch some old league videos and youl see an asotnishing 400AP with and runes.

and it was gone for a reason

ToastersaotMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

it has 300 health and 75AP. 150 health and 50AP isnt an item. thats a component.

We need to INCREASE AP across the board, not take more AP away. Watch some old league videos and youl see an asotnishing 400AP with and runes.

I could agree with reducing rylais stats and making it a component of an expensive high AP item. (1000g)+ (850)+150g = (2000g) (300HP - loses 80HP) (2000g)+ (1250g) +350g = something new (3600g)

Something new: 300HP 120AP Single target basic abilities slow enemies by 20% for 1 second. AoE abilities slow enemies by 15% for 0.5 seconds Pets slow enemies by 15% for 0.75 seconds

I'm pretty sure OP meant to add 150 HP and take away 15 AP. It should be a situational item for AP bruisers, but it's currently being taken on Bot Lane Mages who don't want that much health but like the AP. It's also pretty darn cheap for a damage item, so it won't be a bad idea to add some cost to it as well.

WoonStruckMar 9, 20171 votes

If it had cost added to it, it would need even more HP or simply just buffing the HP and not touching the AP.

It already isn't cost efficient.

ParoeMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure OP meant to add 150 HP and take away 15 AP. It should be a situational item for AP bruisers, but it's currently being taken on Bot Lane Mages who don't want that much health but like the AP. It's also pretty darn cheap for a damage item, so it won't be a bad idea to add some cost to it as well.

Eh. I read "give it 100-150 HP" as "reduce the current HP on it to 100-150". Id be cool with 60AP and 500HP i guess. doesnt change the fact we need more AP overall though =/ A piddly 0.1~0.2 increased AP ratio (that only some mages got to begin with, mind you...) Doesnt make up for the 300 or so AP we lost.

WoonStruckMar 9, 20172 votes

Does losing AP really matter when you can still 100-0 squishies easily?

The items that offer things other than damage should have a trade-off for that damage. In this case, lack of high AP.

If you want more AP in the game, ask for Riot to introduce better AP itemization that can compare with AD itemization.

More realistic choices is what you really want, not more AP.

DrCyanideMar 9, 20171 votes

More realistic choices is what you really want, not more AP.

How is making an item even less appealing to Mages going to make it even a choice? Other items win out 9/10 times right now, do you really think lowering the AP will make it a stronger consideration?

I ask you: what situation would I chose your new Rylais over Ludens Echo, Void Staff, Morellonomicon, Deathcap, Sorc Shoes, or Zhonyas Hourglass? It use to force a choice to be made between it and one of those items, now it doesn't do that.

It's fine and dandy to say that Rylais should be intended for champions with very little CC, but balancing it for that end will remove it as a viable choice for any other Mage demographic.

WoonStruckMar 9, 20171 votes

Because the item isn't intended to be a general mage choice.

Its intended for a specific crowd, and pushing away from 'general' and toward that crowd is the best way to balance it.

**Especially since Riot has shown they don't want it to be a general item. **

How do you think introducing more itemization, rather than shoving stats onto Rylai's to fulfil a purpose that wasn't intended, won't offer more choices?

It never forced you to choose between those items before. You grabbed Rylai's. Period.

DrCyanideMar 9, 20171 votes

How do you think introducing more itemization, rather than shoving stats onto Rylai's to fulfil a purpose that wasn't intended, won't offer more choices?

More itemization was already tried, failing to get into the general builds item 3030 item 3152

It never forced you to choose between those items before. You grabbed Rylai's. Period.

Again, valuing it above one of the other 6 items I listed. It's not like players magically had 6 item slots while Rylais was strong, they had to decide to give up something. And different mages chose to give up different items to make room for it.

Riot has shown they don't want it to be a general item.

Fair point there.

I guess I just look over the fence at the AD Items and see a wide variety of builds, even on Marksmen. Meanwhile on the AP side of the world you're lucky to see 1 item difference in the builds.

And you know why? Because pretty much every item interacts with one mage's kit the same as it'll interact with another mage's kit.

With Marksmen you've got abilities that make them auto attack faster, or give them on hit damage, or they've got a low cooldown spell that they can use in between auto attacks, or they primarily use spells and only fall back on auto attacks. All these different play styles, each of which has a slightly different build that works better for it.

With Mages, you do most of your champion specific decision making at level 1: do I start Tear, Catalyst, or Lost Chapter? Everything after that is dictated by what the enemy team has, not what your champion wants.

Golden Tager XMar 9, 20173 votes

Zac Chogath Mordekaiser Singed yes pls

OrangesilkMar 9, 20173 votes

I mean, why break the legs of champions like Chogath Mordekaiser Azir Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Kennen just to nerf Brand Zyra and Cass?

QuephaMar 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Nerf Cass' E because it USED to count as AoE/DoT for the purposes of spellvamp and Rylai's, and during her shit-tier rework, they removed that in an attempt to make the rework less trash. Now that she isn't trash, it should be there again. It was there for a reason since season 1 or 2. Put it back.

They changed it to counting as single target even before the shurima rework.

WoonStruckMar 9, 20171 votes

....that's when she was in the middle of her second iteration, which was the trash version.

Post-Shurima is her current form.

You're just reaffirming what I said.

QuephaMar 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

....that's when she was in the middle of her second iteration, which was the trash version.

Post-Shurima is her current form.

You're just reaffirming what I said.

In order of occurrence:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=391819

Cassiopeia, the Serpent’s Embrace

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/game-updates/patch-37-notes

Twin Fang Now counts as a single target spell for the sake of items like Rylai's Crystal Scepter

http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-416-notes

Cassi's received a gameplay update! Aspect of the serpent, etc.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-69-notes

Major Mage Updates -> Cassiopeia can't buy boots, etc.

Twin Fang being changed to counting as a single target ability was more than a full year before her first major rework aka "The Shurima Rework" which was before the mage update rework which is her current iteration.

Never challenge my Cassiopeia knowledge again.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 9, 20172 votes

WoonStruckMar 9, 20171 votes

Great argument, Mr. biased ADC main.

I can see the logic.

You do realize this would help ADCs more than hurt, right?

If you're speaking in regards to Azir, Azir shouldn't be crutched on the item. His zoning becomes abusive if he purchases it; he should be divorced from it as much as possible.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 9, 20171 votes

ALSO. I've never been an adc main. currently my main is definitely Illaoi.

If your whole reason for this suggestion is you want to buff Mordekaiser, and that's really the only reason I can imagine, changing an item to help 1 champion is stupid. they should just put a slow on his E. Or rework him so that he's actually cool and worth playing, I'd love to have a cool deathknight juggernaut champ

WoonStruckMar 10, 20171 votes

Its not to buff Morde.

A lot of tanky APs would benefit from it.

Currently the item is only worth picking up on Malz, Brand, Zyra. Nobody else buys it anymore.

Keeping it in its gimped state for the sake of 3 champions, as opposed to the 8 or so that COULD make use of it without being abusive but can't because of how trash the item is is pretty bad too.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 10, 20171 votes

azir rumble taliyah mordekaiser malz brand zyra cassiopeia and aurelion sol all still use it. maybe a few others i'm forgetting. basically all the very best users still like it for the ability to slow very regularly.

of course if we did want to buff it, I think it should be to give it more AP, not more HP and more slowing. the 40% slow was pretty unhealthy- zone control is pretty wonky when you cant step out of the danger zone. even as an azir player... its just healthier when the slow is only 20%, and it lets them put more power into the kits of those champions themselves, like when they buffed azir's mid game damage back up to offset how much worse his late game was with the rylai's nerf.