Grasp should be reworked

Big Lincoln·Feb 20, 2017·54 votes·2,196 views

I don't think it'll ever be in a good spot without being abusable. Turning health into sustain AND damage is too strong on paper but in execution it's actually stronger early and worthless late

It should be one or the other; sustain would probably be healthier, as the counterpart to COC giving you an upfront shield.

What if Grasp rewarded sustained fights more? If the heal starts off weak but stacks up to a cap, you could justify it being strong as requiring a long time to reach full efficiency. Also make it champion only, to prevent champions like Darius keeping it up on minions and then poking you occasionally.

Or we could replace it entirely.

35 Comments

WyrmbladeFeb 20, 20178 votes

It's fine as is, it's not broken and with the Coc nerfs it's perfectly viable. Its pattern can be worked around and it's very satisfying to use. I don't think it needs any changes at all really since a nerf would be pointless and a buff would probably make it op. The Champions that use it are viable but not broken and it's a bad idea to fix things that aren't broken.

Bond of stone is a better target for changes since even champions that should want it are avoiding it and it's not a very engaging mechanic since it's purely passive.

Big LincolnFeb 21, 20179 votes

grasp is garbage, just cos bond is worse atm doesn't mean grasp should be left alone

WyrmbladeFeb 21, 20172 votes

Grasp is currently being run by Malphite, Yorick, Garen, Dr. Mundo, Darius, Gangplank in certain matchups, Shen, some Illaois, Trundle, and Tahm Kench. Out of all of these champions, Tahm Kench is the only one doing pretty shitty, the rest are all completely viable and do not need a buff. These champion's balance can be better handled on a case by case basis rather than throwing everything out of whack by blanket buffing all of them. I have no idea where you're getting that grasp is "garbage", it serves a certain subset of champions and it does it's job well. We do not need things to change things that are doing their job.

SpoofghoulFeb 21, 20173 votes

Yorick shouldn't even touch grasp with a 20 foot pole. On Yorick you take warlords because lifesteal synergizes with ghouls giving you several times over the sustain grasp would give even if not fighting champions or you take fervor since that one also synergizes with ghouls as in they stack it for you and gain damage from it again giving several times grasps damage. EIther is several times better on Yorick then grasp

Garen is better off with TLD or Stormraiders. either amplify the burst in his kit or give him better sticking power, as garen does not make the best use out of grasp since he uses mostly his E to deal damage. though grasp is somewhat ok on him the other 2 are still better.

On TahmKench Shen Darius i would either pick colossus or in darius case you can also argue for stormraiders or fervor, though shen can make good use of grasp, toplane tahm might take it too

Gangplank i would personally opt for TLD as it is really good with his ulti to snipe people altough grasp is pretty savage in lane still though ive used warlords a fair deal as well combined with his heal it gives a ton of sustain so you can just sit under turret and gain gold passively whilst helping team with ult.

Trundle could also opt for fervor it seems like a good mastery for him since he has steroids in his kit even Cotc is ok for him i would like both better then grasp

The rest of the champs you mention have little synergy with any keystone and can to some degree make use of grasp but really don't have any other choice besides maybe TLD

The only champions i actually use grasp on are Sion because most of my builds get to 7k health in a game so it hits like a truck and the heal is good, it's pretty much like a 4 second TLD in his case with additional healing

or tank Shaco since his clone applies it and you pretty much double it's effectiveness which makes it as good as running it on the 7k Sion

On everyone else it's just meh and you take it because you can't really use anything else properly

DragonSheaFeb 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

shouldn't even touch grasp with a 20 foot pole. On Yorick you take warlords because lifesteal synergizes with ghouls giving you several times over the sustain grasp would give even if not fighting champions or you take fervor since that one also synergizes with ghouls as in they stack it for you and gain damage from it again giving several times grasps damage. EIther is several times better on Yorick then grasp

is better off with TLD or Stormraiders. either amplify the burst in his kit or give him better sticking power, as garen does not make the best use out of grasp since he uses mostly his E to deal damage. though grasp is somewhat ok on him the other 2 are still better.

On i would either pick colossus or in darius case you can also argue for stormraiders or fervor, though shen can make good use of grasp, toplane tahm might take it too

i would personally opt for TLD as it is really good with his ulti to snipe people altough grasp is pretty savage in lane still though ive used warlords a fair deal as well combined with his heal it gives a ton of sustain so you can just sit under turret and gain gold passively whilst helping team with ult.

could also opt for fervor it seems like a good mastery for him since he has steroids in his kit even Cotc is ok for him i would like both better then grasp

The rest of the champs you mention have little synergy with any keystone and can to some degree make use of grasp but really don't have any other choice besides maybe TLD

The only champions i actually use grasp on are because most of my builds get to 7k health in a game so it hits like a truck and the heal is good, it's pretty much like a 4 second TLD in his case with additional healing

or tank since his clone applies it and you pretty much double it's effectiveness which makes it as good as running it on the 7k Sion

On everyone else it's just meh and you take it because you can't really use anything else properly

What he said, say a yorick addict. Warlords works because his ghouls and maiden apply life steal. Cuz of melee attack.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 21, 20173 votes

You've never played Tahm in your life if you think CotC is a good mastery for him.

WyrmbladeFeb 22, 20171 votes

Those are your personal tastes, they are backed by circlejerk, not statistics. The vast majority of all the champion's I've listed use grasp as both their highest winrate mastery and most common, with the exceptions that I noted. You still haven't explained why every single one of those champions needs the blanket change that would occur by changing grasp.

Fondling GemsFeb 20, 20174 votes

I just can't stand grasp because there are times where you fail to last hit one minion and the uptime on it is so short that suddenly you have to fully stack it again, which basically gives the enemy laner a free trade against you. If they just made the buff last 1-2 more seconds or had the stacks of buff fall off one at a time I might actually use grasp.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JgbhLBV,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-20T21:09:20.875+0000)

I just can't stand grasp because there are times where you fail to last hit one minion and the uptime on it is so short that suddenly you have to fully stack it again, which basically gives the enemy laner a free trade against you. If they just made the buff last 1-2 more seconds or had the stacks of buff fall off one at a time I might actually use grasp.

You get a whole second dude.

Well actually, not quite. The counter doesn't refresh for 1 second every time you auto/in combat, but instead, it just goes for 1 second, then resets once the second lasts. There's no indication that you extended it or not.

Fondling GemsFeb 22, 20171 votes

The thing is say I am trying to last hit without pushing, suddenly I can never have Grasp up, alternatively I used to like taking grasp on support Taric, made for good trades. Now though it is basically impossible to keep up and trade with it up. Instead it comes u part way through your trade.

1 second just isn't a very long time if you are trying to last hit since you have to stop hitting the minion and wait for it to get low enough. Often times you can't hit other minions because it could die before you can AA again and then you lost a CS just to try and keep your grasp up which guess what, you have to do the same thing all over again.

I used to use it when it was strong enough to warrant it, now it is all but useless on most champions because if you try to keep it up you push and miss CS and if it goes down the enemy can take a free trade. I am speaking about this from both ends too. Whenever I am vs a grasp laner I just have to wait for a mess up, which isn't exactly uncommon with how difficult it can be to keep up while csing properly and then I get a free trade because they don't have a keystone mastery for 4 seconds.

GULAG 4 UFeb 21, 20173 votes

Replace it with strength of ages. Gives cc jungled thebchoice for a good hard engage shield or some extra health in the jungle, literally the perfect example of choice.

5000000000000000Feb 20, 20172 votes

Ramp up mechanic seems ideal for a sustain mastery. Maybe the cooldown gets reduced, or the heal is increased over time. Either way, the heal should become stronger over time.

KyunseiFeb 20, 20172 votes

Or removed like every keystones.

Sire HippingtonFeb 20, 20172 votes

I think the approach they once had on PBE was a good one: It no longer stacks on minons but therefor has only 3sec cd. Now we just need to turn it into a pure heal, maybe even missing health based, and it's good to go, cause without stacking it on minions, it no longer empowers those short single AA trades that make it that strong in lane.

ButtsubushiFeb 20, 20171 votes

Basically like a fervor of battle, but applys every 4 seconds and steals more and more health? Sounds much better, but I think it could make tanks outdamage ADCs even futher lategame... would be an intesting change tho.

Big LincolnFeb 20, 20176 votes

I was thinking it would just be a heal. In my opinion a heal AND damage means that one or both has to be mediocre. If it's just a heal, we can make it stronger.

So it would be for champs who have enough damage and want to be able to heal up in fights while they get durable

DanjengFeb 20, 20173 votes

And the heal increases for each nearby enemy champion. That way it won't be overwhelming while in lane, but will still have impact late game. Despite grasp scaling off % hp, now it seems pretty lackluster in a team fight. Let's say it scales off 1% of your max hp + 1% for each nearby enemy champion. Up to 6% hp if you dive right on top of the whole enemy team.

Big LincolnFeb 20, 20172 votes

the biggest issue with that is how grasps intended audience (juggernauts) usually can't get into the middle of the enemy team unless they use a summoner or enemy blew all CC on someone else

What about Grasp proc every 3 seconds of combat with champions, heal starts at 2% of missing HP, stacking, lets say 5 times for a maximum of 10% health after at least 15 seconds. Stacks can only be achieved if you proc Grasp and can fall off even if you stay in combat (weakness to kiting

What about that

DanjengFeb 20, 20172 votes

That would be too powerful in the laning phase, useless late. I imagine a Darius just sitting in his wave, stacking up grasp. The enemy decides to trade? Bam! You auto them and recover 10% HP. Top lane would just be a farm fest. There would be no point in even trying to attack the enemy, because they would just heal it up.

Big LincolnFeb 20, 20172 votes

i said with champions

It doesn't stack on minions, and he has to hit the enemy champion repeatedly to build it up, and you only get to the next stack if you hit some one with the first, so of you get disengaged and it expires you have to start over.

no interaction with minions at all, is how I would do it

TheHappyReaperzFeb 20, 20171 votes

What if the damage and heal had separate CDs? You could keep the damage lower, but proc the heal more often, making it more of a sustain mastery, while making it still useful in trading.

Big LincolnFeb 20, 20171 votes

That seems a bit confusing. How would you separate them in a way that wouldn't make them overlap?

Maybe if it worked like Akalis passive, it could be functional

TheHappyReaperzFeb 20, 20171 votes

Or, could it deal damage above 50%, and heal when below 50%?

Variks the LoyalFeb 20, 20171 votes

I think the easiest and most simple short-term solution would be to add level-scaling on the heal.

Not sure what scaling exactly. Maybe .2 health per level, so at max it restores about 5% of your maximum health on the AA. Would make it much better late game, and a proper competition to CoC. (5% is probably a bit much, but I'm just brainstorming).

Don't need to increase the damage, since the two are already separate entities.

LadyRenlyFeb 20, 20171 votes

grasp should only heal

frig off with all this damage stuff, if you want damage on a tank you chose the wrong keystone tree

PB4UAMEFeb 21, 20171 votes

Grasp is designed for Divers and Juggernauts, where as Bond of Stone and Courage of the Colossus are designed for tanks. Both of the archetypes that Grasp is made for want both damage and sustain.

ÐelofashtFeb 21, 20171 votes

Do not think we can really adjust Grasp until we know what is going to be in the Tank Update.

junglerboy16Feb 21, 20171 votes

Something like:

"Every 3 seconds in combat, your next basic attack against an enemy champion restores 1.5% max health on-hit, granting a stack of undeath. Stacks increase healing received by 0.5% max health, max 3 stacks (3% max health total heal)."

No more damage, but beefs up the sustain and rewards drain tanking for longer fights. Thoughts?

SzGamer227Feb 21, 20171 votes

Just flip it from damage and sustain to just sustain. Easy. Damage shouldn't exist on the tank tree anyways (and for that matter, neither should Movement Speed in river or Summoner Spell CDR, but at least they're not keystones).

The Mighty FleaFeb 21, 20171 votes

Its strong on a lot of champions who lack hard cc but still need a form of survivability and damage. I utilize it heavily on yorick and nasus.

HenryDaHenFeb 21, 20171 votes

I totally agree that grasp of the undying is too strong early and useless late game. I just don't know how riot should rework the keystone. in patch 7.4, a lot the masteries are getting nerfed so rip

DragonSheaFeb 21, 20171 votes

Jugg's now hate Grasp of the undying.

Here are the ones rolling. Ferver of battle: Darius Garen Shyvana Olaf Udyr

Rolling Stomraider's surge: Nasus Darius

Rolling Warlords: Illaoi Yorick Trundle

Rolling Courage of the Colossus: Udyr Volibear

So yeah, Grasp ain't shit right now.

Big LincolnFeb 21, 20171 votes

warlords on Illaoi isn't that good, I prefer DFT or SRS depending on full AD vs lethality builds

some people I talked to on the Illaoi subreddit use fervor though,which I want to try out at some point

DragonSheaFeb 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JgbhLBV,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2017-02-21T15:17:27.721+0000)

warlords on Illaoi isn't that good, I prefer DFT or SRS depending on full AD vs lethality builds

some people I talked to on the Illaoi subreddit use fervor though,which I want to try out at some point

yeah saw some players use that.