Riot's proposed jungle changes make me think none of them have ever jungled in solo queue.

Shinjusuke··6 votes·617 views

There's a full list of the discussion (which, apparently, is taking place on reddit instead of their own site as far as I can find) here:

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/10/red-post-collection-preseason-2015.html

It certainly seems like they don't understand how being a jungler in solo queue works. The only time "non-ganking" junglers have been accepted as anything but trolling in recent years, as far as solo queue is concerned anyway, was when Feral Flare was horrendously OP.

Once FF was shut down, immediately you're back to gank focused junglers.

And you know what, Riot? There's a reason for that. There's a vastly disproportionate amount of responsibility put on Junglers for the success of the game, because laners, whether they be good or bad ones, get it in their head way too often that Junglers have a responsibility to "fix their fuckups and/or get them ahead". Largely because Riot keeps telling them through balance changes that junglers have a responsibility to "fix their fuckups and/or get them ahead". To the average solo queuer, no lane exists but their own, and it's just as much the Jungler's job to win it as the person in that lane.

We're supposed to gank non-stop, while keeping up in farm, while securing every objective without help, while maintaining perfect map awareness, while having strong clear speed, while having high gank power, while having far less powerful items, while giving up our buffs, while snowballing (but without taking kills), while winning every lane in the game.

And you know what, Riot? You guys made it this way by consistently reinforcing this viewpoint with your balance changes.


UNRELATED FOR THE MOST PART Though not the focus of this thread, the refusal to actually meaningfully nerf Lee Sin, long-time posterchild of "the perfect jungler", is also reinforcing this viewpoint, and your mentioned changes to itemization and jungle difficulty will only serve to solidify that viewpoint even more seeing as he doesn't have weaknesses in the jungle.

While every other jungler is going to be forced to have clear strengths and weaknesses, Lee Sin, and Elise to a lesser extent, are still going to be good at everything a jungler needs, and still be the top of the list, and still reinforce the mindset that it's the Jungler's job to be able to not only do everything, but do everything WELL.

I say this not because I hate Lee Sin or Elise, but because their abilities as junglers warp and distort what junglers are able to do to the point where, because they're top dogs, the average laner seems to think EVERY jungler can operate on that ridiculous level, which they cannot.

TLDR: Riot, conceptually, the changes you're proposing illustrate a lack of understanding of why Jungling is viewed the way it is, and changing what's most effective isn't going to change how the incredibly greedy people in solo queue view and treat Junglers (as a magical force existing solely to win their lane for them and yet still be just as powerful as everyone else).

5 Comments

wolfax5 votes

So because some solo queuers can't get it through their heads what jungling is the jungling of ranked players should have to suffer? If they leave ganking a viable option (just not the ultimate option) then solo queuers will be left to be ignorant about the role of junglers like they have always been while ranked junglers will be able to play other styles that will help them with a specific comp.

The whole point of this is to make it so that ganking junglers are not the best, only an option. Saying that Lee Sin and Elise will still be the perfect junglers when changes will make other jungling option viable just seems like you're in complete denial and don't understand what they want to change.

Shinjusuke2 votes

The problem isn't viability, and it hasn't been all season, the problems are

A) The mentality. Just because something is more efficient doesn't mean the solo queuer who doesn't give a shit about anything but their mid lane will understand that, all they understand is they're losing their lane and think it's cuz "their Jungler isn't ganking enough"

B) Gank vs Farm jungling is a binary situation: Either gank-only junglers are the best or they're not, and when they're not it takes alternate jungle options being REALLY strong for it to be accepted (See: Feral Flare)

Unless the whole of the community magically realizes "gee, the jungler ISN'T just an extra person just for me in my lane sometimes", gank junglers are still going to be the only accepted option by a majority of the community, even if it's not the only good option.

The problem with Lee Sin and Elise is that they can do everything you'd ever need on a jungler, and unless they get nerfed, that's not going to change with jungle changes, which means people are still going to act like EVERY jungler can do what they do, which simply isn't true.

Hayaishi4 votes

OP has a point. Junging has waaaay too much responsibility early game. The team with the best jungler usually wins in soloqueue high elo due to how hard jungler carries.

And thus the reason why gank junglers are better.

Raptamei4 votes

I agree. I never play any other junglers than the hardest gankers because otherwise you WILL have to deal with "retard jungler 1 gank leesin 4 now I lost my lane gg noob reported".

And Nasus because at least people know that Nasus needs to farm.

hashinshin3 votes

I always see the same bullshit. Let me tell you why this is bullshit:

  1. It's not that junglers NEED to get lanes ahead and fix fuckups, it's that they CAN get the lane ahead and fix fuckups. Why would you choose a playstyle that CAN'T fix fuckups and CAN'T get lanes ahead? Top is expected to teleport, mid is expected to roam, supports are expected to camp bot lane and get them ahead. Junglers are expected to contribute as well. However, the AMOUNT that junglers can contribute is way larger than any other lane. Want to farm and sometimes teleport? Go top. Want to gank but still spend most of your time farming? Go mid. Want to roam all game and get kills because nobody can watch you leave your lane because you aren't laning to begin with? Go jungle.

  2. YOUR team doesn't force your jungler to gank, THEIR team forces your jungler to gank. If their jungler ganks your jungler has to gank or counter gank or you'll fall behind hard. If red buff's slow was outright removed this might change, but you're giving a frozen mallet to the jungler then expecting them to NOT use it to camp lanes? You can have your FF stacked and ready to go but if their jungler got 2 lanes ahead then their team will win. Not to mention that:

  3. LoL has easy ways back in to the game. Gank a lot, get no kills? no problem, your XP and gold disadvantage is minor and will be made back up soon with as little as one kill. So then the entire advantage of farming the jungle goes away with so much as ONE laner dying to a gank. Even competitively the junglers try all day to get ganks and few succeed but only ONE needs to succeed and the jungler is back in the game.

  4. Not to mention that with smite being a camp-kill mechanic it's easy to gank, smite, gank, smite, gank, smite. This means that farming more than you have smite actually has hard diminishing returns. I can clear 2 camps in 30 seconds, you can clear 4 camps in 90 seconds. There is little reason to do more than clear buffs and smite and then just farm a little if your laners are out of position or back, bujt then you simply just go back to ganking ganking ganking.

  5. LASTLY: The difficulty in ganking a lane increases as time goes on. River will start to get warded, top will get tankier, bot will get a sight stone, etc. This means that even if you do get powerful by farming successfully it becomes more difficult to gank later than it did at the start of the game. Their jungler could pull 2 kills on your laners, but then when you get items you'll find it impossible to get kills. And then competitively people start grouping and deny the possibility of a gank entirely once ahead.

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