Time for everyone to go Precision/Sorcery or Vice Versa.....

Azadethe··14 votes·1,965 views

Welp..... I've made another post on this, but oh what the hey.....

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dAAXQuia-after-87-why-would-anyone-take-any-runes-but-precisionsorcery

I explained it mostly there, but the TLDR:

Stacking Ult reduction now makes Sorcery/Precision the meta because both have ult reduction, and if you win a team fight, the aggregate Ult Cooldown reduction is over 61.2%. In other words

-If you lose a Baron and the opposing team goes directly to your base, they will have their ults on your respawn and you won't, meaning they can muscle a second ace, and take your base.

-If you lose any generic fight where your base is already partially gone, they can finish.

-Champs with Invulnerability will now have such more often by far, and invulnerable champions generally ALWAYS can manage 1v3 fights at minimum, especially with the new item 3124 (Kayle Tryndamere )


But...... then Riot did this too:

Legend: Tenacity "Underpicked and underperforming." TENACITY 5% + 1.5% per stack ⇒ 5% + 2.5% per stack MAX TENACITY 20% at 10 stacks ⇒ 30% at 10 stacks

Basically..... the only reason it's underpicked and underperforming is because Legend : Alacrity exists and Precision was mostly used on Basic attack champs. It was by no means Weak.

What this amounts to:

Every champ now has a viable Sorcery/Precision combo of runes that ignore its focus being around mostly adcs.

For example:

Presence of Mind + Legend Tenacity as minor runes, or Presence of Mind + Coup De Gras

Phase Rush + Manaflow/Ultimate Hat + Celerity/Transcendence + Gathering Storm

Then there's the Precision Main options.


What I'm going to emphasize:

I want you to look at the sustain adding Domination offers and compare it to what a 61% reduced Ult can do as utility for a champ. You'll find that pro players who are safe and smart, will always use Precision better. Poor players will USUALLY use the Precision better.

I want you to look at the moderate tankiness Resolve offers. Which helps more? a 3 hit tankiness followed by sustained death, or Ultimate reduction? Most will find Precision does it better (Korea already runs Fleet Footwork on Sejuani , and it serves about the same purpose as Grasp)

And then you look at Inspiration: It doesn't have mana control, the keyrunes are very Niche, and the move speed bonuses/debt/cdr reduction is just done better by Sorcery. Unbound Spellbook has uses, but not as much as massively reduced Ultimate cooldowns.

The only champs that don't really exponentially change based on these changes?

Udyr Teemo Shyvana Quinn Nidalee Karma Corki ....... most of which are already mediocre performers.

29 Comments

TempName5484610 votes

people actually believe this LUL

Azadethe2 votes

P.S. Just did my first Nami game since change: Dominated:

Presence of mind healed over 4700 Mana, and healed over 3900 from Mana Band, and my mana was literally 100% capped at all times even though I was spamming skills to proc my passive, and I only had:

![item 3096](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3096.png) ![item 3040](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3040.png) ![item 3047](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3047.png) ![item 3113](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3113.png) ![item 3114](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3114.png) 

The results are hard to ignore:

  1. I outdamaged the entire opposing team, because i went Cut Down (they had a tank support so super easy damage stacks). Outdamaged 2 on my team

  2. I almost Outhealed the opposing team combined.

  3. Perma capped Mana

  4. I cancelled something like 237 seconds of Ultimate cooldowns (almost 4 minutes) out of a 24 minute game.

What I gave up:

Ravenous Hunter (Means I have to play slightly safer) and Eyeball Collection (I get 8 more AP out of the because of Manaflow band, so oh.... what the hell)

5/4/21 score..... in 24 minutes. That's usually a ~ 28 minute score, and I had a crappy Miss fortune adc who set me back a whole 3 minutes on finishing my quest (took 11:00 where I usually finish around 8:00)

P.S. Other team had Tryndamere Nocturne Jinx Veigar All Nami killers.

TempName548462 votes

and yet no one that's "good" at the game still runs this on any champion.

Azadethe2 votes

How can you even say "Still" when the change just came out?

TempName548461 votes

"still" doesn't only express time having passed, for example "the shooter killed 50 2 year olds yet he still doesn't feel bad about his actions".

Azadethe2 votes

That still expresses a gravitas of situation. We're talking runes. And yes. people ARE taking it. Presence + Cut down has just as much skill expression as any Domination combo for damage, and beats Inspiration and Resolve secondaries hands down.

TempName548461 votes

well feel free to link me a single challenger player that regularly uses the combinations you mentioned.

Azadethe1 votes

Wait a week and watch it eek out.

TempName548461 votes

welp its been a while boi now show me yo shet

Lord Phazanor 3 votes

"Coup de Gras" means "Fat hit".
"Coup de Grâce" means "finishing blow".

Salamencę2 votes

I tried presence of mind + ultimate hat on karthus and it was basically urf

meowwow71 votes

i still prefer my mana band on him so that way i still have mana before i get my item 3040

Votable Jester1 votes

You already have mana from E though on minion kills, and isn't that pretty much all you do early?

meowwow71 votes

yeah but that's only if you kill them with the damage portion turned off so i mostly go band and be one pokey undead boi

Azadethe1 votes

Personally I almost refuse to play Karthus without Domination somewhere in the mix. I know that sounds like an exception to the post, but Karthus has a real weakness to divers. If you get Ravenous hunter, he can turn the tables and just erase half those divers.

I haven't tried to find that balance with the new runes yet, but if I had to choose, it'd probably be dependent on if I believed I could pick up multiple kills per R, or just 1-2.

I mean..... you could go full satellite Karthus with both trees, but you'd need to find sustain somewhere..... in item 3027 /item 3146 maybe... or you just couldn't join the more dangerous fights.

Harden Stepback2 votes

nice propaganda

Azadethe1 votes

Try it before you knock it. I know atm it's better than any other current rune combo on Lux or Nami . I'm going to experiment more, but 6 minutes off your ults in a game is not nothing, and neither is perma mana.

TeCoolMage2 votes

Sacrificing AP/AD or HP for AS (and AD/AP if you go Resolve-inspiration)

300g+ early advantages from inspiration and map control on Domination

At worst Domination/Sorcery or Sorcery/Domination combos on late game champions who have nothing better to take will shift their secondary to precision. Even then spellbook is still really nice for these champs.

Like you can compare Domination sustain with precision utility but since when was Domination ever about sustain?? Might as well be telling me to compare resolve damage to sorcery damage.

Sure if you want to be that HUGE NUMBERS person who looks at the situational x% CDR in a late game 40% CDR rank 3 ult teamfight ace, whatever but you're seriously underestimating early game where that AS is replacing approx 1/4 of your potential early AP, wards aren't constantly available, a small 4% increase in damage can mean the difference between clearing with a single Q vs a single Q + several autos, 40 HP advantage can win a lane and 300 gold alone can snowball into an objective.

Funniest part is where you say "what would you prefer?! Three hit tankiness then sustained death, or ultimate reduction?" as if it's fair to compare when a rune's not useful to another rune when it's most useful. What would you prefer, winning a burst trade or getting cooldown reduction on a skill you haven't ranked up using that kill you didn't get?

Ultîma2 votes

All jokes aside, I still don't understand why an CDR-refund/Mana font ability is in the Precision tree to begin with. Why not add it to Sorcery, or Domination since the ability activates on takedowns? The Precision tree is extremely overloaded compared to other paths.

T4underbolt1 votes

It's because this tree is made for ADCs and we all know that riot employees have to climb somehow with their beloved class. So they overload that tree as much as possible.

Venomar1 votes

I honestly don't know what they were thinking adding ult reduction to two different trees. One of wich gives free CDR and now unlimited mana sustain post 10min, both of which have the most potent free stat and damaging runes in the game. All the while the resolve tree keeps getting hammered because "muh tank meta". The only Champs who won't use this are the ones who have flicker ults or are gated behind other mechanics as you mentioned, or the ones who are forced into inspiration because they basically require a flash to function.

I'll gladly trade free boots and some biscuits for a 20-30 second ult cooldown on most Champs.

Shits Dumb. Yea it will encourage more fighting, but it's also gonna do like you said, make the snowball get bigger even faster. I'm gonna test lux and see how low she can go after I post this.

Edit: just tested it. At rank two and 40% her ult goes to 16 seconds with both presence and ult hat. With a kill and at rank three it's down too 9. At rank two a Quadra kill is a full reset, at rank three it takes a triple, but a double sets it to 4 seconds. Too put that into perspective. If you get a kill mid, and roam bot, at rank two, it will be back up by the time you make it to bot lane.

Mhihnj1 votes

60% Less CD on Karthus ultimate lol

Ivern and Irelia1 votes

This is already what ive been running since the rune/mastery update

flibitydoo1 votes

Tried it on Soraka for one game was really bad

presence of mind only triggers on takedown which means you need aggro/it's never there when you need it. Picking precision secondary also sucks because the other rune you have to take is dead;either legend requires you to kill things which means it takes forever to stack or you run damage amps on the lowest damage output champion in the game.

You also lose out on running revitalize which is core to raka- 5-15% extra healing is super important on a champion who heals on 3/4 abilities.

edit:probably on a lot of supports you lose out on running ingenious hunter which gives you a flat 60% item CDR (including trinkets) for participating an enemy ace which is also super powerful.

Azadethe1 votes
  1. Soraka averages 20-25 assists a game. You should EASILY be able to proc Presence of mind. Takedowns are when you contribute to a kill, which can be when you global ult.... so if a top lane is in a skirmish, you heal him, that counts if he manages the kill.

  2. If you take a Legend, Assists count as 1 stack of 10 for each. Drake kills also count as 1. I don't know why you think it's weak.

And also, you can take Cut Down or Coup De Gras for greater lane harass.

It's not a dead rune unless you let it be, and a core part of Soraka's kit is to use Q to sustain yourself. if you're just spamming W into your own annihilation, you're doing it wrong.

  1. Revitalize is overrated. AP scaling on Sorcery is far great enough to compensate, and I haven't used it once since the rune change because it's quite frankly worse than Domination's Taste of Blood/Ravenous Hunter at sustaining self, and enchanter KITS have enough heals to heal teammates when itemized and played correctly. I can pull 900 heals on Nami Sona Soraka . You most likely cap out at about a 350 heal, unless your ult doubles.

  2. Ingenious Hunter can be useful for a support that goes active items, but active items all come at the cost of kit utility. I know you are fixated on healing buff passives, but AP builds heal the SAME as healing item builds, AND amplify the rest of your kit. If you can get enough gold to actually run certain AP builds, you should always run them. The Move speed bonuses attributed to AP are no joke, as are the damage buffs, and the increased base heals (that doesn't mean you don't get a item 3504 ofc; that's still an AP item). So with Ingenious hunter, you're basically deciding:

Do I want highly reduced ult cooldowns, or do I want highly reduced item cooldowns, on items with long cooldowns and a 1-2 second temporary buff? It's your choice, but the ult will win more games, and result in less deaths.

Azadethe1 votes

Btw..... played 3 games tonight with this:

3 wins

The only game someone beat me on dps was one where I used Zyra (We had a Cho do 16k true damage, or we would have been even damage)

And I'm talking as a support role.... First game Nami (2nd most damage entire team, most healing of all players, almost more than entire other team combined, saved 279 seconds of ult cooldown) 5/4/21 24:12

Second game Zyra (Wasn't best game, but still did second most damage, team got a Diana and Cait fed, so I died a few times, but still landed an A; 236 seconds of ult cooldown reduced) 3/10/20

Third game Lux (Early surrender; I dominated a Sion/Kai Sa lane but died twice it a Xin Zhao team fed. Still reduced ult 176 seconds, and outdpsed every player on BOTH teams, took a whopping 7k damage, shielded away over 21k) 3/2/6

These are support performances.

Something I DID notice is..... I was about 1300 less gold in these games than I used to be. Even if I had the highest KDA. The 4 per 10 down to 1 per 10 really will screw any support whose using a different rune build for damage outputs and gold accrual.

The reason I was doing so well is..... Cut Down. Sorcery and Domination doesn't have a rune like it, and Enchanter supports have low HP. So, I was abusing that fact to really lay on amplified damage. The larger a Sion gets from eating those large minions, the more Cut down hurts him. The Larger a Darius gets in his build, the more Lux can hurt him. The larger a Ornn gets, the more a Nami can hurt him, etc.

The reason I had such trouble with the Zyra game wasn't because the runes were weak; It's because I normally run Relentless hunter on her for move speed. The other team had a Diana that was pretty good at throwing her ults in and diving on Zyra's delay, and once Cait gets some move speed, she too can outrun Zyra. So.... I was basically trading move speed for more damage, which Zyra doesn't really need. So there is sometimes a small tradeoff.

But yeah.... on a lot of champs, this Presence of mind is OP. I can easily get 6 minutes of Ult cooldown removal with my playstyles. That's huge. I don't think games will reach 40-50 min marks anymore if this rune stays as it is.

Automated Riven2 votes

I mean, ult CD only matters if A your an ult relient champ like malz/malphite, or, B your ultimate CD comes up before teamfights. Having a 5 second CD ult after an ace where everyone is dead for 60 seconds really doesn't matter at all.

Azadethe1 votes

Most games do not last that long..... Realistic ress timers are 20-30 seconds, at which point you're already bombing a base.

In the Nami game I was initiating a fight nearly every 40 seconds, which just didn't give Nocturne/Viegar/Tryn time to react. Pressure Pressure.

I play Nami like one trick carries play Kha Zix or Jarvan. I know my angles, and can shut down 3-4 opposing team members at once, and bubbles are near 100% hits when I'm not zoning bot lane or trying to make them feel secure that I miss skill shots. That means I usually have a 60% of greater kill participation. Even higher if I got out of lane early and go carry a neutral top who hasn't been trading kills.

The only champs that I think don't benefit from this rune are those who :

  1. have no inherent sustain from local sources (mages who don't use Fleet Footwork or life steal for example, and don't have heals in their kit)

  2. Non Mana Champions (Runes shift them over to Triumph, so this is an unintended nerf)

  3. Have no cooldown on their ults because of some specialized kit like Udyr 's.

It affects the pace of the game on champs who do not have to recall.

NekoniClaws1 votes

Oh.

I played an ARAM today vs an Annie and a Malzahar. I engaged a fight right as my team respawned and was suprised by the fact their ults were back up. Usually my count is good for ults but I didn't read the patch notes =u=

Thanks for the explanation as to what happened. (Another snowball mechanic? Oh boy!)

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