Here's some proof of blatant favoritism towards Jayce, compared to Varus.

WoonStruck·Mar 1, 2017·76 votes·9,962 views

Are you leaving the varus nerfs in even though edge of night got nerfed?

Meddler: "Yes, we think Varus needs nerfs despite the Edge of Night nerf. Initial assessment is that it hasn't hit him meaningfully, probably in part because its active is also useful against him."

Is Jayce still getting nerfs?

Meddler: "Not yet at least. We were considering further nerfs in 7.5, but ended up pulling them until we've seen how the combination of previous nerfs and Ghostblade/Edge of Night/Black Cleaver changes impact him."

#Stop pussyfooting and just fucking nerf Jayce already.

He's been a top tier pick for longer than Varus has with all of these changes. The nerfs you had in store for him weren't even very significant.

Jayce's early game is FAR too potent when half of his all-in is magic damage, even before pen builds were meta. He fell off way too hard then. That should be something you seek to change regardless of the state of itemization around him.

The only difference now is that he's stronger mid-game and he doesn't fall off as hard due to lethality.

Jayce needs tuning. I promise you its not just lethality. God damn. This is why people say your balancing is way too slow.

143 Comments

RiotRiot Wav3BreakMar 2, 201743 votes

I think Permabanned Garen already mentioned Jayce's performance data being quite reasonable. We do in fact take data into account when we decide to make or pull nerfs/buffs. It was difficult to justify hitting Jayce again given the way his performance has been trending down from other systemic changes we've been making over the past few patches. (Mastery damage amp nerfs, Yoomu's nerfs, Black Cleaver changes etc.)

Varus on the other hand did not experience the same impact from those changes as Jayce did and so we had more confidence we needed to tune him down a bit more. Shallow example: Varus doesn't build Black Cleaver, which is still pretty staple on many Jayce builds.

That said, it's not like everyone on the design team believes Jayce is perfectly tuned in his current state, but it is difficult to make a case that he is blatantly overpowered and requires more nerfs on top of the Edge of Night nerfs we will be shipping in 7.5. The shield duration is being reduced from 10 seconds to 5, making it much less potent as a "I get to walk around wherever I want" tool. We will still be keeping an eye on Jayce and make adjustments if deemed necessary in upcoming patches.

On the topic of favoritism, I will say that though Jayce and Varus are both powerful at poking enemies, I tend to think Jayce's poking pattern has more play around it than Varus's. Empowered Shock Blast is not only block-able, but it also has a much longer down time between blasts when compared to Varus's high up time pass through Piercing Arrow shots. When these two champions are both strong, I believe the game feels less fair if you are being poked down by a Varus over a Jayce. This is why the direction of our Varus nerfs in 7.5 are targeted at making the damage of his Q more in line with a pass-through ability and hitting its up-time if spammed at long range mindlessly. Differences like these influence our decision making as well when it comes to nerfing/buffing champions with similar strategic strengths. Out of all the champions that share a strategic space, we tend to favor the ones who use healthier gameplay patterns to express their strategic strengths than ones who don't.

LankPantsMar 2, 201717 votes

On the topic of favoritism, I will say that though Jayce and Varus are both powerful at poking enemies, I tend to think Jayce's poking pattern has more play around it than Varus's. Empowered Shock Blast is not only block-able, but it also has a much longer down time between blasts when compared to Varus's high up time pass through Piercing Arrow shots. When these two champions are both strong, I believe the game feels less fair if you are being poked down by a Varus over a Jayce. This is why the direction of our Varus nerfs in 7.5 are targeted at making the damage of his Q more in line with a pass-through ability and hitting its up-time if spammed at long range mindlessly. Differences like these influence our decision making as well when it comes to nerfing/buffing champions with similar strategic strengths. Out of all the champions that share a strategic space, we tend to favor the ones who use healthier gameplay patterns to express their strategic strengths than ones who don't.

While we're on the topic of blatant favouritism, any chance for Lee Sin nerfs soon? This guy's in every damn game at this point, he needs a god damn sledgehammer taken to his knees.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 201714 votes

I'm sorry but this is such a bias'd question. It's said and designed to either get you the answer you want, or to put him in the spot of "Look at this favoritism". You force him to give an answer that either fits what you want, or puts him in a position that makes him look bad.

If you want a non-biased question, that still answers your question, it's real simple.

"How do you feel about Lee Sin at the moment? His pickrate is rather large, and it feels like he's appearing in almost everygame."

You're not asking for nerfs, you're asking for his current state of balance. By Riot acknowledging how they feel about his current state of balance, you gain insight on how they feel about Lee Sin, and whether or not it will lead to nerfs. You're less likely to get an answer from such a bias'd question, because people who know how to recognize them, won't answer them.

LankPantsMar 2, 20179 votes

Riot has openly admitted to being biased in balancing Lee Sin. The question is loaded, not biased, a biased question isn't even a thing and it's loaded based off of past statements from Riot.

And yes, the correct answers to this question are either "we are nerfing Lee Sin" or "we're a group of biased dickheads". There's no in-between, Lee Sin is busted out of the arse right now, to not nerf him is inherently biased.

Also Riot's bias ties in here, just saying "Lee Sin needs a nerf" has no real place here, when you bring it back to Riot's past (admitted) bias towards their husbando it does.

ShaolinToiletMar 2, 20172 votes

Do you think jhin is broken

LankPantsMar 2, 20177 votes

Yes, I do.

He's been the top ADC pick since his release. He's not really ever been bad, or even not good. He's the top ADC at all levels of play and his pickrate is insane. His combination of absurd range, absurd damage and absurd utility have no place in the game. He very clearly needs nerfs, the only difference between him and Lee Sin is that he got nerfs last patch.

ShaolinToiletMar 2, 20175 votes

Good I see lots of people argue Lee is broken then say jhin is perfect.

MelledoneusMar 2, 20177 votes

Jhin is perfect four us all.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20175 votes

Uh, yeah, a biased question is a thing. It's like asking "Hey, did you hide your Hitler portrait yet?" You either get them to admit that they haven't done that, or they have, but answering it means that they do infact have a portrait of Hitler. A loaded question is still a Biased question.

And no there is more to it than that. Lee recently became a problem due to the Jungle changes and Lethality prevalence. He's already been nerfed, ult damage and can't reveal invis units with his AOE, and several sources of Lethality and Armor pen are still getting changed and nerfed.

You don't even show proof to your claim that Lee is "busted out of the arse", you simply claim it using pickrate. "Oh man, Lee Sin having a huge pickrate, that's new". You're taking your own personal experience and trying to apply it as a whole, if you do not use evidence to support your argument, so yes, your question is inherently biased, and doesn't promote the right type of Communication we want to have between us and Riot.

LankPantsMar 2, 20173 votes

Uh, yeah, a biased question is a thing. It's like asking "Hey, did you hide your Hitler portrait yet?" You either get them to admit that they haven't done that, or they have, but answering it means that they do infact have a portrait of Hitler. A loaded question is still a Biased question.

You don't have to answer with yes or no. "I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about" is an acceptable answer. It's loaded or leading in that it coerces one to answer in a certain way. Your question is a very bad example of that, because no one sane is going to answer it in the way you intended.

And no there is more to it than that. Lee recently became a problem due to the Jungle changes and Lethality prevalence.

Lee Sin has legitimately always been a problem in the jungle. Did you know that there's never been a single patch since the end of season 2 where Lee Sin hasn't been the number 1 jungler? It's time for a change, he's been far too good for far too long, it's time for him to get his "time out of the spotlight".

He's already been nerfed, ult damage and can't reveal invis units with his AOE,

That was more of a "look, we're doing something guys, now shut the hell up so we can go back to furiously jacking one off to our golden boy" nerf. It didn't impact him in any meaningful way, it didn't remove any of the BS from his kit. It was way too soft and Riot knew that before they did it.

and several sources of Lethality and Armor pen is still getting changed and nerfed.

Lee doesn't give a fuck about armour pen. He can work around the new iteration of TBC just fine, he's done it before. He also doesn't build many Lethality items, he builds EoN on occation, but that's just because the item's busted.

You don't even show proof to your claim that Lee is "busted out of the arse", you simply claim it using pickrate. "Oh man, Lee Sin having a huge pickrate, that's new". You're taking your own personal experience and trying to apply it as a whole, if you do not use evidence to support your argument, so yes, your question is inherently biased, and doesn't promote the right type of Communication we want to have between us and Riot.

Top competitive pick, highest jungle pickrate in the game, rising ban rate, 42% pick rate on KR, good winrate besides all of these things. He's busted out of the arse.

TeklmMar 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Did you know that there's never been a single patch since the end of season 2 where Lee Sin hasn't been the number 1 jungler?

I'm pretty sure he wasn't even arguably the number 1 jungler throughout Cinderhulk and a lot of season 6 (until he got buffed...). I don't really disagree with what you're saying, but that was exaggerated.

LankPantsMar 2, 20171 votes

He was still the number 1 pick rate jungler. Seriously go look it up.

Lee Sin, as compared to Rek'sai, Sejuani, and Gragas. At no point did his pickrate dip bellow any of them and he was infact the number 1 pickrate jungle when he was buffed.

TeklmMar 2, 20173 votes

I know that (his pick rate has always been absurd) but highest pick rate doesn't mean best champion. Again, I don't disagree that Lee Sin is problematic but he's not always the best jungler.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20172 votes

You're still not showing any actual statistics other than pickrate. You're just making claims and expecting others to accept it.

And honestly when I read this

now shut the hell up so we can go back to furiously jacking one off to our golden boy

I can not take you as someone who isn't biased against Lee Sin. The way you talk about him, shows a lot of anger and not a very objective perspective. Why should we trust your Bias, if we shouldn't trust Riot's Bias?

LankPantsMar 2, 20172 votes

I can not take you as someone who isn't biased against Lee Sin. The way you talk about him, shows a lot of anger and not a very objective perspective. Why should we trust your Bias, if we shouldn't trust Riot's Bias?

I'm biased against Lee Sin and I'll wear that on my fucking sleeve. I'm more than happy to admit that I fucking hate Lee Sin. I hate that he's been allowed to be so strong for so long, I hate seeing him in every game, I just absolutely hate him.

It's fine for me to be biased though, because I'm not working on the state of Lee Sin. Just like it's fine for people who work at minimum wage to be biased about the suggestion that min wage should be lowered. There's a word other than biased for this that has a less negative connotation, opinionated.

I can look at things objectively if I want to, but I have no reason to here. I have no stake in balancing, it really doesn't matter how biased I am.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20172 votes

because I'm not working on the state of Lee Sin

I have no stake in balancing, it really doesn't matter how biased I am.

While we're on the topic of blatant favouritism, any chance for Lee Sin nerfs soon?

You're literally asking for Lee Sin nerfs, and you say your bias isn't a factor in this? You're angry about him, you say it yourself. Angry people do not make rational decisions, as you still haven't even showed actual statistical data about Lee Sin's state other than his (yuge) pick rate.

49% winrate on http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle 48.4% winrate on http://www.lolking.net/champions/leesin#/overview 48.8% winrate on http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin 47.8% winrate (48.4% specifically in Jungle) on http://champions.pickban.com/l/47/Lee-Sin

But no, you can't show those stats because they disprove your bias'd view of asking for nerfs. So other than telling others, "No he's too strong, wahhhh", why don't you show some actual proof of why he is?

CosnirakMar 2, 20176 votes

I don't buy this description of their poking patterns at all. You can see Varus charge up his Q and its damage is reduced by passing through other targets first. The counterplay against Varus is fairly clear. In addition to dodging his Q or standing behind stuff you can close the gap. There's great gameplay to it because he can try to prevent you from closing with his E and R but mostly relies on his team for it, making for typical protect-the-carry team game play that's at the heart of league.

And then there's Jayce. The counterplay to Jayce is to hide behind minions and tanks and that's it. Get poked? Go back to the fountain. Feel like trying to take Jayce out? Too bad, change your feelings. Jayce is a melee carry who does great in duels but also happens to have the longest range non ultimate damage in the game (unless I'm forgetting someone), can chase people down, and isn't too shabby at getting out of a bad fight. I know, he has his weaknesses too, but they don't make for good gameplay either.

I don't agree with the OP that there's actual proof of favoritism here, but lets not pretend Jayce is a champion with healthy gameplay.

Ashen RiderMar 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

happens to have the longest range non ultimate damage in the game (unless I'm forgetting someone)

Jhin

AnonagonMar 2, 20178 votes

I think your interpretation of Jayce's pattern as healthier than Varus' is misguided on many levels. On top of what Cosnirak said about Varus' Q charge time giving him much more healthiness than you describe, there's a lot to be said about what these champions contribute besides artillery poke when considering whether their poke patterns are healthy.

Consider that Jayce himself brings the necessary follow-up burst to finish off a poked-down target. On top of that, the burst is point-and-click, gapcloses to engage the trade from range, and if they don't die, disengages when it finishes.

Consider that if Varus gets closed in on, he is left with nothing but his ult to save him, and he does fairly weak damage outside of Q. Jayce, on the other hand can outtrade many opponents at melee range because of his high, reliable damage, and if he is forced to disengage, his disengage has much more uptime.

So whats actually healthier?

The champion whose poke is telegraphed but hard to avoid, but has only his ultimate as an option if he is engaged upon? or The champion whose poke is blockable and lower tempo, but can actually outtrade you in melee range if you get on him?

beanyMar 2, 20174 votes

Uh varus also brings line waveclear to stall out games (one of the most powerful traits to have) and pick potential (which you seem to ignore)

DynikusMar 1, 201732 votes

Jayce has honestly been pretty disgusting for long before lethality even existed. He wasn't meta for whatever reason, but he's always hit like a truck.

WoonStruckMar 1, 20176 votes

He wasn't meta because people thought he needed Tear.

Then people figured out you DON'T have to spam EQ off CD, and that you can buy AD straight away!

Also, they buffed R damage scaling and Q base+damage scaling significantly.

It had NOTHING to do with the mana buffs.

One affected his E's mana/lvl scaling, so didn't affect him until lvl13+, long after he started falling off hard.

The other was an adjustment to his melee Q (40/45/50/55/60/65->40 at all ranks), which is ONLY ever used during all-ins, and the overall cost of all-ins was effectively unchanged, especially early which is when he was strongest.

Finally, he got 50 base mana, albeit his mana scaling being lowered by 3/lvl. This is the most significant change, and it still only allows him to use one additional ability.

PoskeMar 1, 201726 votes

False

he wasnt Meta UP UNTIL RIOT DECIDED TO BUFF A PERFECTLY BALANCED CHAMPION FOR WORLDS and he has been top tier pick ever since

fk i wouldnt be surprised if some pro Players payed riot to buff Jayce right before worlds

ModAcademy KaynMar 1, 20172 votes

Wasn't the point of buffing various people for Worlds, to help with the Diversty problem? The problem people complain about seeing the same X champions?

Oakleaf RangerMar 1, 20173 votes

This is a case of being overbuffed especially with all the indirect buffs he got as well. Lethality being the most recent. Overbuffing champions can also decrease diversity as the case with Jayce.

PermabannedGarenMar 1, 201717 votes

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Jayce/ https://na.op.gg/champion/jayce/statistics/top http://beta.champion.gg/champion/Jayce/Top

Sorry, but the idea that Jayce is still badly in need of nerfs and is a broken OP top laner just doesn't hold up when put against the actual data.

Do a little research before you make a thread like this.

WoonStruckMar 1, 20174 votes

Does his early game need nerfs? Very yes.

Does his late game need buffs? Very yes.

His early game is still problematic. It still needs to be nerfed.

PermabannedGarenMar 1, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Does his early game need nerfs? Very yes.

Does his late game need buffs? Very yes.

His early game is still problematic. It still needs to be nerfed.

I wouldn't be opposed to making his power curve less lopsided, but he will never have a good late game with his current kit unless his numbers are laughably broken, or if you give him the ability to follow up on his long range Q by giving him the ability to melee Q from over a thousand units and giving him the ability to survive once he does that.

nice tableMar 1, 20171 votes

his late game isn't actually bad, the weak point is his mid game.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20172 votes

His late game is worse, because he has to deal with teams grouping up, and blocking his access to the backline, where a lot of burst comes from his melee form. Especially concerning his current builds, getting CC'd by the front line isn't going to do him any good.

FTWolfMar 2, 20172 votes

I think that it is possible to make powercurve less lopsided and I thinking that it's hard to do but certainly possible

Fisher No ChainsMar 1, 20174 votes

🙂

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20172 votes

I'm having some serious contemplative thoughts about that squares meaning.

Sire HippingtonMar 2, 20173 votes

Varus stats on those sites don't look nerf-demanding either though

GayFluffyUnicornMar 2, 20171 votes

I imagine a 30% playrate+51% winrate on jayce or zed. Oh the outcries. But nah it's an adc, nothing alarming boys he is perfectly fine.

Sire HippingtonMar 2, 20172 votes

51% winrate really isn't a big deal, and playrate usually has alot other factors than actuall champion power, and adc have the wiered tendcy to get rediculous playrates when they are strong.

Now, if we want alarming numbers that no one gives a fuck about, just look at janna or annie. No matter what site you use, janna consistently has an above 53% winrate with atleast 10%(usually more) playrate since years straight, but no one gives a damn cause 'muh utillity support, can't be broken if it doesn't directly kill me' Similar with annie, she hardly ever was below 52% winrate in the last few years, and while not overly popular, she still has usually between 5% and 10% playrate, so the argument 'only mains use her' or 'she's only used as counter' or 'small samplesize' still hold no ground. Ahrie would be another example for stats that are way more out of line than varus or even jhin for not only multiple patches, but even seasons, yet she's not adressed at all...

dominusxMar 1, 20176 votes

why a champion than can go toe to toe with you when you hit lvl 2 first and all in him is balanced. dunno how many times i've end up dying because i got somehow fucking oneshoted by the lvl 1-2 jayce.Not even rengars lvl 1 is that cancer and trust me i get fb 80% of my games on top rengar regardless of elo.

BiermusketierMar 1, 20173 votes

That's his playstyle.. You don't fight a Jayce early game... That's not how you win from him. You take the poke, try to make him miss a few Q's, farm what you can and wait till you get 6. Irelia, riven, fiora can take on jayce on lvl 6 if you can utilize on his mistakes. If you are still scared or playing a weak early champ just farm, avoid poke as much as possible, take TP and outscale him... If he pushes (which will probably happen) ask for a jungle gank, cc him and fck him up. If Jayce gets some kills someone fcked up... Then you just have to stall as long as possible and wait for his weak lategame. If you don't have frontline then you made a mistake in champ select..

dominusxMar 1, 20172 votes

or we can gut him which is the better approach.

JoseraphMar 1, 20174 votes

Or you could adapt until he gets tuned down. Actually, i just realized how ridiculous having to play around someone's strengths are, you're right, lets gut Jayce via hot fix /s

Faceroll TacticsMar 1, 20173 votes

What are his weaknesses?

Oakleaf RangerMar 1, 20172 votes

Seriously how is being the most dominant laner in game a strength that anyone should be allowed down to have? Your telling me that no one should be able to go toe to toe with him in the laning phase and the only solution for everyone facing him is to survive the laning phase?

FTWolfMar 2, 20171 votes

Literally anyone with a decent ult can 1v1 him when they hit 6. Naut, renek, fiora, riven, etc He's literally strong after 6 if you allow him to kill you early cuz you got greedy for cs stop bitching and learn to play against champions..

Oakleaf RangerMar 2, 20172 votes

You say that like Jayce is just gonna let you walk up on him. Not only can he kite but he has multiple disengage tools that while also following up. The only time he going allow a chance at a sustained fight when Jayce is believes he bash your brains in with his melee form. But sure tell me to gold starve myself as he still pokes me any way.

FTWolfMar 2, 20171 votes

No I'm not telling you to gold starve yourself lmfao you obviously don't know the game like I do, you literally outscale him by not touching him early let him push it to your tower and you farm. What you don't realize is everytime he pokes you with q or even autos he auto pushes the wave. Get more game knowledge learn how to manipulate the wave and you'll win lane more often damn stop complaining and get better at the game

Oakleaf RangerMar 2, 20172 votes

If it was really that simple he wouldn't be the best too laners currently. The champions you listed are of the few who can beat him if close enough. If you really know the game enough then you would know that even under tower he has the tools to still damage you without getting tower aggro to continue to make you miss cs or take damage for it getting it. Yah he won't deny you all your cs but he can deny you enough that there will be a significant gold difference. Now what if I pick a ranged top laner who can farm better under tower? Well that is true but at the same time you are also probably squishier than a melee champion and now Jayce can also use his melee form as part of his rotation to harass you instead of just finishing you off as opposed to a melee champion who could possibly win a sustained fight against him. You also assume that Jayce can't manipulate the wave as well. Newsflash he can and guess what I would do if someone is trying to freeze the wave on me if I was in his position? I would shove it straight to their tower assuming I even allowed a good chance for the wave to be frozen in a unfavorable position.

FTWolfMar 3, 20172 votes

He's not one of the best top laners anymore it's literally that simple. I wouldn't say anyone with a 47% winrate top is the best top laner. Sure he was the best when he had a high 52% but that's simply not the case anymore. Manipulating the wave isn't just pushing it, it's knowing when you can back without losing cs, freezing, putting jayce in a advantageous position for you since he insta pushes the wave when he harasses you. It'll put you behind in gold, but if he doesn't kill you and you play it smart until you get your power spike relative to his level cuz trust me any tank who doesn't die to him early can 1v1 him easily its incredibly difficult for jayce to face tanks. Trust me when I say this if you aren't adapting your play style to beat a measly mid tier jayce now, you're probably worse than the person you're laning against.

nice tableMar 1, 20171 votes

regardless of elo :^)

dominusxMar 2, 20172 votes

yeh cause people dont respect powerspikes and you cant help getting jumped on by reng early. if you gonna elo bash me tho do it only if you are diamond 1 otherwhise screw off.

Usernamehere1235Mar 1, 20176 votes

I HEAVILY prefer the route Riot is taking with their recent patch notes. Slow, methodical patching is the way to go. In the past, when champions were strong, they would nerf the champion, the items, the entire class, and then that entire class would be literally unplayable for months until they finally get back to them. It's better that they take their time. Jayce doesn't need to have a 40% winrate; he needs to be balanced. Balance takes time and statistics.