% damage, armor reduction, true damage 
as stupid as 
is he's the only diving fighter I can think of that doesn't have any of these things, and he can't fight tanks or other bruisers worth dick because of it.
ignoring 
If divers are equipped with the tools to pick out targets, why do they also have the ability to clean up the tanks afterwards?
PPPPPPPPPPPP2708 votesFlat armor reduction is really good vs squishies. True damage is mainly flat HP these days and also destroy squishies.
Big Lincoln16 votesyeah but most of the guys with armor reduction have it in percentages 
RiotAD Yuumi8 votesTo some degree it's about preventing binary patterns and managing frustration. Vi has anti-tank mechanics on her W (% shred and % max health damage). Because a bit of her power budget is focused around brawling tanky dudes she doesn't have to absolutely murder squishies as much.
HongChongDong16 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=60T9rjol,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-02-14T21:08:03.966+0000)
To some degree it's about preventing binary patterns and managing frustration. Vi
But she does exactly that anyway.
Abyssphere1 votesNow imagine if that was much worse, and you understand the Rioter's point. Congratulations.
Big Lincoln2 votesI think my main frustration is that they seem to circumvent the rule of drawbacks as opposed to the champions I play most of the time (juggernauts)
e.g when I pick Darius or Garen I have to play around the fact that I usually can't choose who comes in contact with me, and because of that, Darius has the tools to fight tanks and Garen can soften them up for his team. Vi, on the other hand, can choose who she fights by ulting onto the back line, and also gets to fight tanks more or less the same, since her armor shred value is only 5% less and she has HP damage and an AS steroid to compensate for that anyway.
So, really, I just want to know where the line is drawn; where divers might seem like they're pushing too far into what juggernauts are supposed to be doing, without having the weakness of being easily kited or disengaged, or if you guys are still in the progress of working a larger distinction out yourselves.
RiotAD Yuumi11 votesOf course there always tends to be a risk here of divers becoming juggernauts with target selection and we need to be careful that characters like Vi don't cross that line.
I think the line is drawn really at what the character's effectiveness IN THE AVERAGE GAME looks like. Example: in most games Vi is going to be forced to build at least 2 offensive items to be able to burst as hard as she needs to and even when she builds tank after that, in the amount of time it takes her to brawl/kill a tanky frontliner she's probably going to die to the damage coming out of the carries she chose not to focus. Compare that to Darius who can build straight tank while still being a murder machine and has repeatable healing whenever he hits those tanky guys with his Q. Can Vi fight a tank in a team-fight? Sure. Does it tend to be all that effective when she does it? Not so much.
Of course there's games where Vi goes 25-0, becomes invincible, and is effectively an unkillable juggernaut who can also one-shot your carry whenever she chooses, but that's not an average game. Due to how gold/items work in league, characters who are snowballing ahead of everyone tend to blur class and counterplay rules. That's why it's important to look at what you're going to see from a champion MOST of the time.
Lastly, there's always going to be a balance responsibility to ensure that these characters aren't most effective when building things that circumvent their class weaknesses. Tank 
for example was problematic when strong partially because he had almost as much CC as a tank without having to commit to any of the risks a tank has to by putting it's body in a fight (he could just dash/chronobreak out).
Big Lincoln4 votesThat's a fair explanation, thank you for the response. =)
Also, if it's not too much trouble to ask; how are you guys feeling about juggernauts at the moment? Do you think they as a class are healthy? Do they still need work, is there a direction you'd like to see a new or reworked juggernaut be headed?
Cosnirak1 votesPart of the problem is that certain champions actually do snowball in average games (below very high ELO at least), even when they do poorly at first. Ekko still does this, even when building AP, as well as a number of other champions, many of whom have fighter/diver/assassin aspects to them.
Essentially some champions snowball so well that you can't make trades against them because they get more out of it. But between forcing you to play safe, extremely hard punishing you for any mistakes, and being able to duel you even when they're behind they tend to just make the game unfun for others.
Teridax681 votesIn Vi's case, wouldn't just shifting power away from burst and into DPS make her better at dealing with tanks without resorting to max health damage? The issue with a lot of Divers, like Camille, Jarvan, Lee Sin and Vi, is that their damage application is often very bursty, which turns them into assassins with more durability and CC when they're strong, or just allowed to go full damage. Even light fighters like Yasuo and Master Yi, as well as marksmen like Vayne and Twitch, often get way too bursty, and not just when they're ahead.
It feels like target-agnostic damage at this point is mostly a symptom of trying to compress fights into shorter windows, which the current durability pools of tanks doesn't naturally allow for. There's been a lot of discussion on how tanks can get way too tanky with only a couple of items, but also on how they end up dying way too quickly once damage champions complete their builds, especially after they get armor-ignoring items. If tank stats were deflated, or at least progressed more smoothly over time, would you consider taking some anti-tank damage out of the game?
HongChongDong1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=60T9rjol,comment-id=001600030000,timestamp=2017-02-14T22:09:21.388+0000)
Of course there always tends to be a risk here of divers becoming juggernauts with target selection and we need to be careful that characters like Vi don't cross that line.
I think the line is drawn really at what the character's effectiveness IN THE AVERAGE GAME looks like. Example: in most games Vi is going to be forced to build at least 2 offensive items to be able to burst as hard as she needs to and even when she builds tank after that, in the amount of time it takes her to brawl/kill a tanky frontliner she's probably going to die to the damage coming out of the carries she chose not to focus. Compare that to Darius who can build straight tank while still being a murder machine and has repeatable healing whenever he hits those tanky guys with his Q. Can Vi fight a tank in a team-fight? Sure. Does it tend to be all that effective when she does it? Not so much.
Of course there's games where Vi goes 25-0, becomes invincible, and is effectively an unkillable juggernaut who can also one-shot your carry whenever she chooses, but that's not an average game. Due to how gold/items work in league, characters who are snowballing ahead of everyone tend to blur class and counterplay rules. That's why it's important to look at what you're going to see from a champion MOST of the time.
Lastly, there's always going to be a balance responsibility to ensure that these characters aren't most effective when building things that circumvent their class weaknesses. Tank
While you're perfectly right in everything you said, Vi still accomplishes those things anyway. Why would she fight a tank? You guys monitor high elo the most so you should know perfectly well that Vi's will 100% of the time look to ult and then murder squishy targets in the back then just turn on those tanks that she couldn't with carries around. It's pretty difficult to peel a super durable Vi off an AD carry when during fights you might have at most the support there to help with everyone else having to shift their focus to the rest of the enemy. If she dove without her team then she won't probably kill anything, but that's just because the Vi engaged without follow up from the rest of her team.
I know I'm just stating things that you already know. Notice who the meta jungles have been for ages? Vi, Hecarim, Olaf, and Lee sin. All Tanky champions that can more than easily dive carries in the back with little to no punishment as long as they're receiving back up from their team. You guys made the assassin rework because assassins were easily capable of selecting squishy targets and guaranteeing their death, but it's common knowledge that these sort of champions are still pulling off the same feats with even less counterplay due to their tankiness.
GigglesO2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=60T9rjol,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-02-14T21:08:03.966+0000)
Because a bit of her power budget is focused around brawling tanky dudes she doesn't have to absolutely murder squishies as much.
But she does still absolutely murder squishies.
Derfel1 votes"Vi doesn't destroy squishies"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Abyssphere1 votesWhere is that quote?
Woodakoodashooda7 votesBecause MORE flat armor penetration would only make exploding squishy targets that much easier.
Sahn Uzal4 votesExactly, they've explained this multiple times. They're allowed to be a bit better against Tankier targets, so they don't have to be STUPIDLY effective against squishies (Cough Old Talon Cough)
Big Lincoln1 votesthey're still 'stupidly' effective at wiping out squishies though.
i would argue that they are sometimes better anti-tanks than a handful of juggernauts, who are mostly nothing but throwing really high damage at people. i'd also argue that it dilutes the purpose of juggernauts when mobile squishy killers are able to fight tanks with no issue, while not having the tradeoffs that juggernauts have to make
Sahn Uzal3 voteslol.
Divers don't have the damage potential of the Juggernaut, especially not the AoE Damage.
They're supposed to be effective at killing squishies, that's their main job.
Big Lincoln1 votesmost juggernauts aren't AoE.
They're supposed to be effective at killing squishies, that's their main job.
then they shouldn't be able to smash tanks as well as some of them are capable of. that's how you get camilles
Sahn Uzal4 votes
have a lot of AoE
are more single target focussed, but have some rediculous fucking damage potential
Most Divers cant ''Smash'' Tanks, that's just Camille.
Big Lincoln1 votesTrundle, Volibear and Skarner are single target as well. Most juggs aren't aoe champions.
Vi as well, she has 20% armor shred and % HP damage on her W, she's very good at fighting tanks
Sahn Uzal4 votesTrundle will outduel basically everyone. Volibear is shit, but deals a lot of damage if you let him get off, he's often complained about by lower elo's for a reason. Skarner is a diver now, they decided Juggernaut wasn't the right class for him.
If a Vi can properly stick to you as a tank and kill you in a bunch of spell rotations, she probably deserved that kill. ''Smashing'' tanks =/= Being Unable to Solo Kill Tanks.
Faustavian1 votesTrundle will outduel basically everyone.
Okay, 
duckarp4 votesWhy do tanks have high damage and can 1v1 almost anyone, when they are supposed to be tanky and sacrifice damage for it? There are many things in LoL that don't really make much sense :/
Ralanr31 votesTanks don't have high damage, they just fight squishy opponents. Ever see a tank try to take a tower quickly? It's a much slower process that everyone else.
duckarp5 votesThey are not supposed to fight squishy opponents. They are supposed to soak up the damage. If we had proper roles like Riot originally intended - tanks tank (low damage, high sustain), carries deal damage (high damage, squishy) and supports support (squishy or tanky, low damage, high utility), Riot wouldn't have so much problems with balancing the game. As the game stands now, it becomes more unbalanced with every patch. Riot doesn't have a clue and just does the same things over and over. Buff here, nerf there... Without any real plan. They make one small change and suddenly the whole meta shifts. That's not healthy for the game at all.
Ralanr25 votes50000000000000001 votesI think laning vs a tank should be like the tank is so durable that fighter can't do any significant damage to tanks in short trades, and tanks do little damage to fighters, since they should be the low damage class. But this would mean their base stats are obscenely high. And apparently people don't like wet noodle fights.
Ralanr3 votesProblem is that top lane tanks outside of 
have shit sustain and thus will eventually lose a trade because they have no way to keep their sustain up outside of 
.
A tank should at least have the potential to kill his opponent, otherwise there's no point in playing a tank top. You'd just take them support.
3TWarrior4 votesexcept that league has what a perfect pencil does not, intrigue in and of itself.
people would still buy new skins and new champions without the issue of balance so long as there is appeal in the game
heck, if it'd get the game more balanced, people would probably even put up with a popup at the start of league that asks players to donate a dollar and when they do, they don't get bugged for another month
Ralanr6 votesexcept that league has what a perfect pencil does not, intrigue in and of itself.
people would still buy new skins and new champions without the issue of balance so long as there is appeal in the game
heck, if it'd get the game more balanced, people would probably even put up with a popup at the start of league that asks players to donate a dollar and when they do, they don't get bugged for another month
No, they wouldn't.
3TWarrior1 votesany console gamer puts up with this whenever they see the opening of a game that gives a shoutout to the developers
same thing happens at the end credits
heck, so many corporations are making money off of in-game ads...it's ridiculous
Ralanr3 votesConsole games have to be bought first.
Penns2 votesThey do have base damages, and sometimes scalings, that carries would love to have tho.
Ralanr7 votesTell carries to sacrifice their late if they want an early.
Melledoneus8 votesOr if they want tanks to never deal damage, carries should give up lifesteal.
Spoofghoul6 votesHes right tanks don't have high damage
Eexcept for maybe 
&
But lets be honest here if you get hit by sions abilties you really deserved the pain
The thing is tanks in general tend to have decent base damage & also deal this in area of effect, this gives them threat. they need some damage, however there damage is easily mitigated by any sort of defense whether thats a lifesteal item or an item with resistances. And you don't even need much resistances to shut a tanks damage down
If you build 0 defense prepare to grab some lube when someone jumps you, yes base damage will hurt vs just base defense its perfectly normal.
JavelinJoe3 votesCamille does not have armor reduction (or armor penetration if it was a typo) in her kit...
THE RlVER KlNG7 votesAnd? She has two forms of %damage (one of each damage type to be precise), and spammable true damage. Her heal even goes off how tanky her opponent is, so she is rewarded for hitting tankier targets.
JavelinJoe1 votesHer heal even goes off how tanky her opponent is, so she is rewarded for hitting tankier targets.
Isn't that a good thing? If she healed better off of squishy targets than she would be even more OP. This adds some variety to her target choices. Also, only the outer half heals, and most of the time tanks like to be right up in your face. The % max health damage is on this outer ring too. Her ult gives her the % current only on the selected target. Her true damage is no more "spamable" than Fiora's, Vayne's, or Olaf's is.
THE RlVER KlNG4 votesAt max CDR her Q has a .3 second difference between casts, are you kidding me?
You're making poor excuses for a kit that is obviously overloaded. Divers aren't supposed to be variable in their target choices, that is the trait of Skirmishers. Divers are already better assassins anyway, they shouldn't be obnoxious duelists with massive steroids as well.
JavelinJoe2 votesSo a minimum of 3.3s between true damage if she does it in the absolute least amount of time which is not always possible. And it can't even critically strike.
they shouldn't be obnoxious duelists
Camille IS a duelist though. Besides her W and the 0.75s stun on her E, every single part of her kit is single target focused, even her passive. She is meant to pick a single target and dive them.
THE RlVER KlNG2 votesShe shouldn't have the ability to be target agnostic. That is a complete antithesis to how Divers should function - that is a skirmisher's, most ADCs, and Vel'Koz's job. You're saying she gets to be a mobile, damage dealing CC machine with sustain, shielding, mixed damage, true damage, and one of the most utility-loaded ultimates in the game? Jesus man have you been playing the last month or so? Camille is fucking bullshit and permabanned in the LCS. She has few if any actual weaknesses inherent in her kit, which is ridiculously overloaded and overtuned. (But she is your third most played champion, so I won't judge......)
'Doesn't even critically strike' oh I'm sorry is she supposed to be a melee ADC now too?
JavelinJoe2 votesagnostic
???? Pretty sure religious opinions were not part of the conversation.
most ADCs, and Vel'Koz's job
Vel'Koz deals a majority of AOE / penetrating / multi-target damage. In fact only his auto is single target. ADCs deal a majority of single target based damage since most of their damage comes from auto attacks (unless they grab a 
). A few ADCs are more hybrid where some penetrating / AOE abilities are worked into their kit.
CC machine with sustain, shielding
She has a decaying slow (80% over 2 seconds), a .75s stun and a knock-back (AOE lock-down if you count that as CC). That is about average for dive champions. She has a heal on an AOE based cone where only the outer half applies the heal every 9s max rank with no CDR, not really Vlad levels of healing here. Her shield is only for 1 damage type exclusively (indicated by an icon next to the champion you choose to attack). Any other forms will not be shielded. Also it only procs if she hits you with a basic attack.
Jesus man have you been playing the last month or so?
I think you answered this already since you obviously looked up my profile
But she is your third most played champion, so I won't judge......
See...
And yes I have been, if you still did not know.
Also, I have played her mostly support if you were curious. Definitely not as strong there as if she has an income other than relic shield. But at the same time, not entirely useless.
Ahristocats2 votesnot a diver is a fucking skirmisher, he doesn't have burst he has mechanics that a skirmisher has
%hp damage, and armor shred
cuz gypsy said why not
Big Lincoln3 votesim just going by what riot defines him as. makes no sense as a diver to me but w/e
Papa Andrei1 votesWell he literally does dive at the enemy :)
Variks the Loyal11 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=60T9rjol,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-13T22:05:26.874+0000)
Actually, Riot considers Aatrox a Diver. They said when they do a Diver pass, like the recent Assassin one and the upcoming Vanguard one, Aatrox will be a major player in it (Along with probably Wukong).
Big Lincoln2 voteshonestly i hope they rethink it, we already have a really big selection of divers to choose from and there's already a draintank diver in
he'd be much more comfortable fitting into a hard carry role, i feel
Auz the Ripper4 votesTo get him in a hard carry role, he'd have to get some really bullsh*t mechanics Even more than he already has