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Let's ignore the elephant in the room and talk a little about the tiny kangaroo behind it

IP Masquerena··4 votes·1,995 views

So I just finished this match:

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2156100794/219466781?tab=overview

And if you don't realize instantly who the elephant in the room is from his 6 legs, then I'll spell it out, it's Urgot, which is #TotallyBalanced, and let's focus on that little kangaroo from the enemy team, Vayne.

This Vayne wasn't superb, but why? Both teams had feeders, mine was bot lane early on (Pyke ulted a few kills to look better on the end card), so she got fed but she couldn't carry. The answer? Look at her items and tell me what's missing.

I mean, people keep crying how any monkey can carry on Vayne right now, but this guy couldn't even when my team was feeding him early, and fun fact, he wasn't bad at Vayne. Yes, he wasn't bad, he wasn't stellar just like Urgot isn't (get it?), but he wasn't new to her either, yet he didn't have the damage to kill me because of that 1 item he doesn't have.

I've read a lot of threads where people cry how Vayne is OP by herself, so Riot needs to nerf her, not the item, but apparently, without that certain item, she's quite balanced.

Which brings the point to the issue. Nerf the item, Vayne is fine without it, but with it, she's too strong.

14 Comments

Craft Zeppelin3 votes

I partially agree on that. Urgot is more of a reliable brute force compared to Vayne. But again it is true that she is a ticking time bomb. After she gets items how behind she is, the buffs to her tumble does stupid levels of damage regardless of how she plays.

Ragnaveil1 votes

The tumble is something, but that buff wouldn't matter much if it wasn't for the silver bolts changes she got over the years. 5.22: Removed flat damage, and instead gave a minimum, which is good against users who dont buy a ton of health, and users who do buy health get hit even harder. 8.14: Target's health ratio increased to 4 / 6.5 / 9 / 11.5 / 14% of target's maximum health from 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 / 12%. 14% with a minimum damage number of 110. Jeez.

In Urgot's case, the leg numbers are still tuned around the damage reduction that was removed, so they need a bit of a power down, be it base damage or % max that gets lowered.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Exactly, and Rage Blade makes her fuse too short, but if she doesn't get it, she isn't the oppressive champ the boards make her be.

She's fine without it, busted with it, which means she doesn't need direct nerfs (yet) but her interaction with it removed.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, and Rage Blade makes her fuse too short, but if she doesn't get it, she isn't the oppressive champ the boards make her be.

She's fine without it, busted with it, which means she doesn't need direct nerfs (yet) but her interaction with it removed.

Thing is, if you are the support you can pick to absolutely ruin her kit. Sona and Soraka and Janna are really hard counters in lane and in teamfights. Especially Sokara. A Vayne that can't tumble is literally a Vayne that cannot ult = She will automatically be degraded to a bronze Vayne no matter how hard she tries. Also these enchanters really counters single target DPS.

Another approach is to outscale/outrange her. Twitch/Jinx/Kog are all powerful ADCs this patch.

IP Masquerena1 votes

I said she's busted, not uncounterable or unbeatable, that's why I said that she doesn't need direct nerfs yet.

Rage Blade makes scale a bit too fast, So you are fighting and uphill battle as soon as she gets it, so if that interaction gets removed, she may be in the right spot.

If you focus early on shutting her down, she's still a Vayne, and it will hurt her tremendously.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wVzvnzO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-26T21:28:54.724+0000)

I partially agree on that. Urgot is more of a reliable brute force compared to Vayne. But again it is true that she is a ticking time bomb. After she gets items how behind she is, the buffs to her tumble does stupid levels of damage regardless of how she plays.

I mean yasuo is the same way. He can feed and feed and feed for the first 20 minutes of the game, but as soon as he gets his free 6 kills worth of gold injected into him, suddenly he’s relevant again. (Talking about the free 50% crit he gets.)

Sir Saltarin1 votes

He's being nerfed already

Ragnaveil1 votes

Hopefully it hits the scaling of the shield (Pretty sure the health ratio is supermassive), and lowers the base damage of the knees or the max hp damage.

SanKakU1 votes

Trying to make the argument that a bottom lane champion who bought Doran's Shield is being used by a good player*[sg-miss-fortune]*

IP Masquerena2 votes

Doran's Shield on ADCs isn't a bad item actually, especially if you don't intend to fight the enemy much as the regen and it's passive on it make you much harder to push out of lane than a D Blade.

Plus the shield adds damage versus minions so you deal the same to minions.

SanKakU1 votes

It's bad IMO because you get less healing than you get with a Doran's Blade and you have less damage to punish the enemy with if they try to gang up on your lane partner. I know some players do just fine with buying the shield but I've never seen it actually be the reason someone does well.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Not quite.

Since early game, D-Blade gives 3% life steal, and most ADC have around 70 damage with D Blade early, that's 2.1 hp per auto, and at the base auto attack speed, it's around 1.something per sec.

D-Shield gives a base 6 hp/5, which is 1.2 per sec.

They both 80 hp, D-Shield give 5 dmg vs minions, while D-Blade gives 8 AD, so for farming, you only have 3 ad less, which is not the end of the world, but then comes in the passive of the D-Shield, when you take damage from enemies, you get 0-30 HP/S for 10 s based on missing health. If you are missing 7.5% hp, you get 3 hp per sec regen, which is 30 HP over it's duration. In order for D-Blade to heal you that much, you need to attack around 14 times, which, assuming the enemy allows you to attack stuff and not zoning you, takes a bit more than 20 sec early, which is double D-Shield's duration.

In case you're missing 50% HP, D-Shiled will regen you around 20 HP/s for 10/s, which is around 200 HP total, for D-Blade to heal that, it would need around 95 autos, so that's gonna take a while.

So as you can see, math wise, D-Shield is a much better item when you want to be defensive rather than offensive, as you won't get many chances to punish an opponent if you're on the back foot.

Even lanes or lanes where you are the stronger pair are indeed better to take the D-Blade, but if you are on the back foot due to a weaker lane, similar to that Vayne, where she was against Pyke and Jinx, where if Pyke would land any type of CC, he would combo in the other along Jinx's Chompers, D-Blade won't save you, but D-Shield would because of that boost in healing. If you get low enough, 30 HP per sec, can save your ass.

SanKakU1 votes

Your math isn't even close to accurate, but keep on constructing barely plausible walls of text in hopes someone will take you seriously. It's a fabulous waste of time.

IP Masquerena1 votes

OK Mr. Smarty Pants, what's the correct math?

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